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veeshan

Suggestion for how pve bosses spawn

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16 hours ago, Jah said:

The threat of being killed is very much part of the gathering game loop. The mice need cats to complete the pvp sandbox farming game loop.

This is a PvP game, and it was always pitched as a PvP game. PvP, or at least the threat of it, is part of harvesting.

Respectfully disagree to parts of this. Yes, there is an overarching threat for everyone to be killed while in the game world. This is part of the overall game loop of an openworld pvp game, It does not matter if they are crafting/harvesting/ganking/sieging/checking the map/visually undressing an elken/ ect. This has nothing to do with the mouse(harvester) loop. The mouse does not need or want a cat ever in order to successfully, and I might add, to most efficiently complete their objectives. I am not sure why you are stuck on the mouse needing a cat in any form to harvest. Its only the cat that needs a mouse in order to complete their loop.

Because of the mouse not needing the cat in order to efficiently harvest, players will go to many lengths to avoid that encounter.  Hence, it cannot be an effective PvP driver. 

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4 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Respectfully disagree to parts of this. Yes, there is an overarching threat for everyone to be killed while in the game world. This is part of the overall game loop of an openworld pvp game, It does not matter if they are crafting/harvesting/ganking/sieging/checking the map/visually undressing an elken/ ect. This has nothing to do with the mouse(harvester) loop. The mouse does not need or want a cat ever in order to successfully, and I might add, to most efficiently complete their objectives. I am not sure why you are stuck on the mouse needing a cat in any form to harvest. Its only the cat that needs a mouse in order to complete their loop.

Because of the mouse not needing the cat in order to efficiently harvest, players will go to many lengths to avoid that encounter.  Hence, it cannot be an effective PvP driver. 

I am not saying the mouse needs the cat in order to harvest resources. I am saying the PvP threat is an essential part of the 'harvesting in a pvp sandbox' loop.


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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

I am not saying the mouse needs the cat in order to harvest resources. I am saying the PvP threat is an essential part of the 'harvesting in a pvp sandbox' loop.

harvesting without threat of being attacked is absolutely dreadful, especially since i do skinning, the possibility of pvp while gathering is literally the only thing i miss from being chaos

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

I am not saying the mouse needs the cat in order to harvest resources. I am saying the PvP threat is an essential part of the 'harvesting in a pvp sandbox' loop.

I am not saying harvesting should be threat free. I am saying that we cannot rely on the cat/mouse paradigm in this game to generate meaningful PvP, this must be addressed through other avenues.

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On 8/4/2019 at 2:43 PM, Jah said:

People who want PvE without the threat of PvP should honestly play a different game.

Agree but people that want more then the bare minimum PVP experience might want to look elsewhere as well.

Ganking harvesters and those killing mobs, standing in circles, and siege worse then what DAoC did 15+ years ago isn't going to cut it for me.

Funny enough, most MMOs considered themeparks or PVE games have more PVP stuff to do, yet Crowfall is called a PVP game. I wonder what they requirements are for the label.

Ashes and Camelot both have more planned for PVP. Those that want less PVE likely will eye Camelot while those wanting more PVE will check out Ashes.

The whole sheep/mouse vs wolf/cat dynamic is part of these games but they shouldn't forget that some wolves like to fight other wolves in more elaborate setups. If the core PVP experience is running from mob camp to resource spot looking for someone to gank, they will really have missed the mark for me. Unfortunately it looks like those coming to these games don't expect much and that's what we get.

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On 8/4/2019 at 12:38 PM, veeshan said:

Pve activity give content to pvp players since people in the world farming. Instead of running group around hoping to run into another group

With a high population this shouldn't be such an issue. Actually making features and reasons to PVP one another would be a big plus as well. For me, PVP requires two willing participants, someone banging on a rock that gets ganked isn't PVP. It is a step above (or below) from PVE as some players don't even fight back like mobs.

If they created more PVP hotspots that were built upon PVP itself and not more PVE would be more of what I'd like to see.

7 hours ago, veeshan said:

Consider this what if there was a PvE game that had roaming stronger mobs, Patrol mobs for example. Game since Everquest had higher level mobs that randomly roam the zone and will woop any unaware players who arnt paying attention while they level in the zone. WoW had fel Reavers in BC for example, Everquest almost every zone had a random NPC that would woop your butt roaming the place.
I remember a time when i was playing a human necromancer in Qeynos the human starter city i was running through town and turns out there a single mob adruid that also walks around they city it turns out druids are not a fan of Necromancers and he killed me in like 3 hits you also lost XP on death in that game too so it was a penalty of about an 30-60 min of XP loss. Consider players in crowfall the same but a little less predictable and you basicly have the same thing.
the 2nd zone out from Qeynos was quynos hills (lvl 5-15 zone) with a roaming lvl 35 ranger that would kill anyone she saw killing an animal the wolfs and bears were KoS in the zone aswell so that was fun. was also a lvl 20 odd necro mob that would kill anyone but shadowknight, necro and i believe bards for sdome reason.
I can go on there are so many of these things in a PvE game that finction the same as players would in Crowfall, Any giant mobs, Griffons in karana, My favorit were yes of the beholders that would agro you charm and if a patrolling guard agroed the eye when you were charm you would then get kiled by the guard cause the mob would have you attack the guard since you were its pet :P lol

Makes me :( that EQ was able to do things that few to no games have managed since. Maybe because it was so new and rough, but don't believe I've experienced another game since where I felt like I was "in the game" the same way. The things you describe seem so simple for today's games but made such a difference to the experience. Hoped EQN might rekindle it somewhat, too bad.

 

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9 hours ago, APE said:

Agree but people that want more then the bare minimum PVP experience might want to look elsewhere as well.

Ganking harvesters and those killing mobs, standing in circles, and siege worse then what DAoC did 15+ years ago isn't going to cut it for me.

Funny enough, most MMOs considered themeparks or PVE games have more PVP stuff to do, yet Crowfall is called a PVP game. I wonder what they requirements are for the label.

Ashes and Camelot both have more planned for PVP. Those that want less PVE likely will eye Camelot while those wanting more PVE will check out Ashes.

The whole sheep/mouse vs wolf/cat dynamic is part of these games but they shouldn't forget that some wolves like to fight other wolves in more elaborate setups. If the core PVP experience is running from mob camp to resource spot looking for someone to gank, they will really have missed the mark for me. Unfortunately it looks like those coming to these games don't expect much and that's what we get.

You will be pleased to learn that the game is not just ganking. You should log in an check out some sieges and fort fights. In my experience, ganking is a very small percentage of the PvP in Crowfall.


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Posted (edited)
On 8/4/2019 at 1:25 PM, veeshan said:

Don't have bosses on a respawn timer but instead have normal mobs act as a place holder

 

On 8/5/2019 at 1:48 AM, miraluna said:

make a boss spawn a random event with a global announcement "The Great Wyvern has been spotted in XX Zone, head there to claim it's treasure!

I think either of these approaches would work better as a PvP driver than the current mechanic. One gives a reason to grind on and maintain control over the PvE content, the other allows us to ignore the PvE content until it suddenly becomes relevant to everyone. Personally, I would rather know that if I go *here* and do *this* I can trigger a boss (and that my enemy is likely trying to do the same), rather than running across zones chasing random notices, but either would be an improvement.

What we have today comes down to a single guild or faction killing a boss (and only the boss) and quickly moving on to the next one. Since no one else knows when that boss was killed, they can't be waiting to contest the next spawn. As is, the only time the bosses offer any real PvP opportunity is immediately after server up, and again about 4 hours later.

Edited by VaMei

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On 8/4/2019 at 5:43 PM, Jah said:

People who want PvE without the threat of PvP should honestly play a different game.

Given the history of the lead designers, the converse should be expected as well.

 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, VaMei said:

 

I think either of these approaches would work better as a PvP driver than the current mechanic. One gives a reason to grind on and maintain control over the PvE content, the other allows us to ignore the PvE content until it randomly becomes relevant to everyone. Personally, I would rather know that if I go *here* and do *this* I can trigger a boss (and that my enemy is likely trying to do the same), rather than running across zones chasing random notices.

What we have today comes down to a single guild or faction killing a boss (and only the boss) and quickly moving on to the next one. Since no one else knows when that boss was killed, they can't be waiting to contest the next spawn. As is, the only time the bosses offer any real PvP opportunity is immediately after server up, and again about 4 hours later.

Personally I'm a fan of the "rage meter" style of boss spawning as well. Anything that gives players incentive to remain stationary in the open world at a known location is a good PvP driver, and it would also improve the overall feel of grinding out those camps. In stead of wanting a drop and viewing each mob as a disappointment, those mobs then feel like a step toward an opportunity for a boss kill with much better drop rates.

This approach kills two birds with one stone really. It makes pve feel less grindy by having a natural 'run' or 'end point' limiter, and it creates incentive for groups of combat ready players to remain in a position that lends itself to being attacked, and ensure they are carrying loot worth fighting over.

Three if you consider that war tribes are supposed to eventually spread across the map. Having a progress bar for enemies killed that then spawns a boss is also an excellent mechanism for how one would "push back" a spreading horde that feels less cheesy than just sprinting for a boss.

Imagine the spreading mechanic has a bar for "Preparing Attack" that the camp fills over time, killing the boss removes progress from this bar, and killing the boss when it is empty removes the camp unless it is one of the starting camp spawns. When this bar fills, the system generates a new camp on an adjacent parcel, that then has its own "preparing attack" bar and so on. If the parcel contains a POI it creates a time limited event where the NPCs attempt to capture it, which requires player intervention to prevent. Lets say only bosses can circle stand or hit trees and they're 1/4 as efficient as players at doing so so people have plenty of time to fight these guys off if they let it come to that.

This method of spreading makes war tribes a threat that gets exponentially worse if not controlled, as 1 camp becomes 2, which become, 4, which become 8 and so on if nobody is farming the mobs. This in turn leads to more interesting decision about not only what to farm, but where to farm it. Do you go hit the r9 boss in the "core" camp or do you hit the r7 spawn that's getting dangerously close to your keep in stead? Do you focus your ganking efforts on camps threatening your enemy's holdings to funnel farmers away and help along the horde for your own benefit? Do you simply choose to take on the task of keeping your team's maps clear so they can cleanly engage the enemy as your support for the war effort? Are you clearing out camps for power, wealth, or glory?

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

You will be pleased to learn that the game is not just ganking. You should log in an check out some sieges and fort fights. In my experience, ganking is a very small percentage of the PvP in Crowfall.

I've been holding off until Caravans and more features are put in as Alpha and such things will be out end of Summer 2018. :rolleyes:

However, I have participated in sieges and fort fights in the past and are part of my gripe with their design or lack of it.

Forgetting the timer aspect (that is improving), the event itself is lackluster to me due to having played games that do more during or leading up to these events.

Doesn't seem like they've added or improved upon Shadowbane's system from so many years ago.

Blow a hole in the wall, kill a tree and or stand in a circle. Surprised they can't come up with anything more exciting or challenging.

If combat and builds were top notch where fighting and what not were amazing I wouldn't be so let down, but neither is that good.

Just seems like a rather repetitive experience without much complexity or strategy involved. In the moment it is still fun, but I'd rather have more fun in my fun.

Maybe I'm greedy or have too high expectations, but where are the front doors being knocked down? Battering rams? Boiling oil? Ladders to scale the walls? Multi-layered inner walls/doors? Guards that can be placed or roam or are useful? World conquest or steps required to be able to attack a particular fort/keep (need to control x% to capture a stronghold)? Land design with choke points and ways to cut off enemies approaching/fleeing? 

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6 hours ago, Jah said:

You will be pleased to learn that the game is not just ganking. You should log in an check out some sieges and fort fights. In my experience, ganking is a very small percentage of the PvP in Crowfall.

Me and the many like me that cannot play in the window that is siege time see it much differently. Without sieges and large fort fights, its a lost cause. ACE would have been much better off only having the servers online during a time frame surrounding that window, but we had that discussion and reason failed.

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Just now, mystafyi said:

Me and the many like me that cannot play in the window that is siege time see it much differently. Without sieges and large fort fights, its a lost cause. ACE would have been much better off only having the servers online during a time frame surrounding that window, but we had that discussion and reason failed.

If you can't play during the siege window, why would you want the servers to only be online during that window?

Also, there are fort fights to be had outside the keep siege windows, They don't involve as many people, but they do happen.


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4 hours ago, APE said:

Maybe I'm greedy or have too high expectations

Too many people accept mediocrity. Its not just in gaming, but in every aspect of life nowdays. Pick any skilled trade in any part of the world and the story is the same...  I tell the young people not to worry about global warming, they wont be able to make or do anything not involving a cell phone. 

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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

If you can't play during the siege window, why would you want the servers to only be online during that window?

Because I don't like having myself or others experience crowfall without them. They are cats meow and to be time gated out of them leaves a bitter taste. I would rather wait then missing out on the best parts. Limited server access would also consolidate players giving everyone logging in a better experience. Many changes have occurred simply due to low population, I would say some of them were mistakes that could have been avoided by not having 24/7 testing. 

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I've suggested this before.

Keep using the current re-spawn timer, BUT subtract one minute from the remaining time for every non-boss killed in the camp. If that becomes to frequent, then turn up the default delay.

This way, if you are not part of a farming group you still have a chance to find and kill one, but if your group is actively farming a camp, the bosses will show up frequently enough to make it so you don't need to run from camp to camp.

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On 8/5/2019 at 12:48 AM, miraluna said:

I like the idea of a PVE boss being triggered by some player activity (killing lower mobs, sacrifice, capturing an outpost, etc).

Another approach to dynamic spawns could be to make a boss spawn a random event with a global announcement "The Great Wyvern has been spotted in XX Zone, head there to claim it's treasure!" so rather than a farming/grinding activity it becomes a focused PvP event.

I used to and sometimes still play TLoPO, and they do a boss raid and treasure fleets with notifications telling us what server or areas they're gonna be in. While it wasn't pvp, it did consolidate people in one area, and loot wasn't even distributed, so it was still a competition amongst players for the rare gear. Plus it did require several people to take down so grouping was mandatory.

I love raid bosses, and it's something I'd love to see in CF,  but with lack of mob variety currently it'd be moot. Maybe an alpha or beta thing. I think if the reward was great enough though, it'd be something to totally fight over and help drive some conflict.

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