Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Deioth

Thoughts on Tanks?

Recommended Posts

So far, after finally having a chance to give Crowfall some proper play time, I'm trying to figure out the best fit for tanks.  Having done a lot of skirmishing, small-to-medium group forts, and a couple sieges my Pit Fighter feels great in siege but near worthless elsewhere.  People tend to focus healers hard and my Q feels worthless a lot of the time in smaller group PVP--so I can always use Neckbreaker outside of Siege--but the fact still remains that I feel like I lack utility.  If the enemy also has a healer, I can't seem to generate value outside of Siege.  I've also got a Battle Rager but only did some 1v1 and small group fights in an EK.  I'd need more time to experiment and learn him (if I bother, thematically I prefer a 2h mace tank) and he plays quite differently, but I only have moderately more utility (that is, more consistent value utility) with the net pull.  He similarly feels unfulfilling.  The survivability is up there for both when played right, so it's not that I have an issue there, but it does feel like I cannot "tank" very well.  With an apparent lack of taunt and protective abilities for me to make good and consistent use of my survivability, I feel really lacking outside of sieges where it can shine to initiate a push, cause panic, and actually draw fire.

 

What are everyone else's thoughts?  I'm aware that the consensus seems to be that the CC classes are in a similar boat given how strong Retaliate can be.  I want to be able to skirmish with my pit fighter (granted the group I am in right now isn't the best comp for synergy but still) rather than need him for siege and an Alpha Warrior everywhere else.  Is there a good discipline I can take to get me the damage and utility for skirmishes and small scale?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

imo in skirmishes you have 2 rolls as a tank peel for healers (knights do this well) of interupt there back lines so they dont get free reign on what they want to do.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tanks are pretty crappy as far as filling any sort of what most people consider to be a "tank" role.

No game did the pvp tank better than Warhammer online. I wish Crowfall would use that as the foundation for what tanks can be in this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Pitfighters are fantastic in every situation if played properly.  You give up some ability to do raw fast damage, sure, but you gain sustain.  Just as it should be.  Pitfighters have a sustain that is heavily weighted towards self-healing and barriers - and it doesn't get better than that.  Simply high HP or high mitigations (block) are great, but when you cannot recover your HP, you automatically enter the end game every time you start a fight.

Pitfighters will benefit from upgraded vessels and gear.  Having a greater stat pool helps you recover some of the lost damage stat having chosen a tank over a pure DPS, so its possible you are under-geared and feeling noodly.

If you are lacking utility, as you say, you need to rectify that with majors.   You can't do anything vs healers?  You have a slow, a blind, a spamable knockdown, an ult knockdown, a suppress and likely a racial CC in your base kit alone.  L2P

 

My thoughts on tanks is that they need hate generation baked into their promotion tree so they can hold agro in PvE, since thats a thing now.  I would also like to see a non-damaging taunt ability off the global cooldown where the tank can cause someone to do less damage unless attacking the tank.

Edited by Ble

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ble said:
Quote

Pitfighters are fantastic in every situation if played properly.

But arent they also widely regarded as OP and desperately in need of a nerf?

 

Quote

Pitfighters will benefit from upgraded vessels and gear.  Having a greater stat pool helps you recover some of the lost damage stat having chosen a tank over a pure DPS, so its possible you are under-geared and feeling noodly.

Do they benefit more than a dps with upgraded vessels and gear? Shouldnt it be a wash?

 

Quote

If you are lacking utility, as you say, you need to rectify that with majors.   You can't do anything vs healers?  You have a slow, a blind, a spamable knockdown, an ult knockdown, a suppress and likely a racial CC in your base kit alone.  L2P

Doesnt every archetype have access to CC as well?

This is something id ideally like to see....in that tanks would have the CC to go with lesser damage. As it stands, every class has a CC specialization, from healers to dps.

 

Quote

I would also like to see a non-damaging taunt ability off the global cooldown where the tank can cause someone to do less damage unless attacking the tank.

This was invented in Warhammer Online (or something similar, tank taunts caused the tank to do more damage to the target until the taunted person hit the tank3x) and was probably the key single skill that allowed low damage tanks to produce decent/good damage while maintaining a tank role in pvp without forcing the opponent to target the tank like a pve mob.

 

Edited by Toadwart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

But arent they also widely regarded as OP and desperately in need of a nerf?

They were before they got nerfed.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Traditional “tanks” are a pve mindset not a PvP one. A “tank” is left for last cause they don’t impact the fight as much as a healer or bursty dps. 

Pvpwise Clerics are the best tank in cf. and if the fight is stationary the Templar shines thru. A myrm is probably 3rd best. 

And my dirge will pull aggro from a pit fighter with one impale in pve. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A tank in PvP, when its been viable, in my opinion, has the ability to thwart the enemy plays.  He accomplishes through control abilities and physical mass (collision). 

 

In order for a tank to be viable in PvP, he'll need to have the ability to 1) present himself as a target and not die quickly if immediately targeted (tankiness) and 2) Be a thorn in the side of enemy plans by controlling, slowing, corralling, CCing, Taunting etc.  Where a tank becomes OP is if he is also able to do great damage.  Having someone be required to go around a tank is good.  Having said tank wreck the backfield is bad.

Considering this, I think Pitfighter is in a pretty good place.

 

@Toadwart

1 "regarded as OP"  No

2 "other dps class benefit as well" Yes, but classes can easily max out all the important stats and have ability points left over going into secondary and tertiary allocations.  A tank gets less AP in his tree, for example, so being able to dump more into STR without capping AP is good for him, because he's got more AP to gain before he caps.  I seriously doubt most dps classes need to be rolled higher than blue vessels (given a quality necro and proper gear) to pretty much cap out anything worth capping.

3 "doesnt every class get CC" yes, but not the amount that Pit gets, and not the quality either (blind and suppress are very powerful).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ble said:

If you are lacking utility, as you say, you need to rectify that with majors.   You can't do anything vs healers?  You have a slow, a blind, a spamable knockdown, an ult knockdown, a suppress and likely a racial CC in your base kit alone.  L2P

I can get some low AoE damage and a low damage stun out of one I've tried but I feel like I'd give up a lot not taking a retaliate buffing disc for other possible damage buffs/skills (and the hotbar only has so much room).  Meanwhile, the healer outheals my efforts anyway no matter how on point my blind from combo or slow to suppress combo is (of which the cooldowns mean I can't keep much control going at all).  But, spammable KD?  What?  Where?  It seems well worth keeping Neckbreaker for smaller scale given the ease of targeting healers and squish DPS and avoiding tanks, sure, but what spammable KD?  Also, minotaur rush is clunk as custard to use even in ideal conditions as all offensive/utility movement skills are, especially so in close quarters (this and all melee made all the worse with the camera spin issues and their current hit detection system).  If you have advice, try giving it rather than a condescending L2P, eh?

 

For sure, I hope they bake in a few things for tanks so there's value in targeting them rather than ignoring them completely, either that or we need more reliable peel or other utility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The role of pvp tanks is why i designed my "tank disc" the way I did, by giving them a MH shield and replacing block with a collision dodge that ccs hit enemies and redirects damage from hit allies for 3 seconds. The goal there being to have an ability that was universally useful as an "interceptor"

Often the problem with pvp tanks is the inability to be proactive. Your job is to thwart enemy plays, which means more often than not intercepting an effect intended for an ally in some fashion. Just having a lump of HP doesn't work for PvP tanking because people will just go around you. That's why you see PvP tank roles having stuff like pulls, aoe zoning tools, and other stuff designed to interfere with the enemy moreso than just soak damage. In order for a pvp tank design to be effective, you have to be disruptive enough that the enemy wants to hit you in stead of your squishy friend, which in effect means you have to be so disruptive it makes it a pain to actually kill your squishy friend.

If you're building a PvP tank your priorities should be disrupting enemies first, and being hard to kill second. This usually means if presented with two build options you're going to want to take the crowd control or support over the sturdy option. Building for pure beefiness isn't so much a "tank" role as it is just a less support dependant DPS role. Ranged CC characters are the true "tanks" in a pvp game most of the time.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2019 at 8:12 PM, Toadwart said:

No game did the pvp tank better than Warhammer online. I wish Crowfall would use that as the foundation for what tanks can be in this game.

 

12 hours ago, Toadwart said:

This was invented in Warhammer Online (or something similar, tank taunts caused the tank to do more damage to the target until the taunted person hit the tank3x) and was probably the key single skill that allowed low damage tanks to produce decent/good damage while maintaining a tank role in pvp without forcing the opponent to target the tank like a pve mob.

Would really like to see some WAR like "tank" mechanics make their way into Crowfall or any game really. Along with a lot of other things that are on paper so simple yet so good.

Really wish they would take advantage of the "combo" system a lot more as pretty much anything could be added into a power chain be it basic or promo options.

Other upcoming games already looking like they might be going in a better direction when it comes to non faceroll dps roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Ble said:

My thoughts on tanks is that they need hate generation baked into their promotion tree so they can hold agro in PvE, since thats a thing now.  I would also like to see a non-damaging taunt ability off the global cooldown where the tank can cause someone to do less damage unless attacking the tank.

This seems pretty simple to implement assuming "taunt" is something the devs could create and code.

Make it work on 3rd attack, make it part of a combo chain (taunt or do something useful in PVP), make it a stand a lone power either basic or promo, add a "Meat Shiel" Discipline.

If PVE is expected to be a major time sink in this game, they need to build characters to function properly with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Deioth said:

I can get some low AoE damage and a low damage stun out of one I've tried but I feel like I'd give up a lot not taking a retaliate buffing disc for other possible damage buffs/skills (and the hotbar only has so much room).  Meanwhile, the healer outheals my efforts anyway no matter how on point my blind from combo or slow to suppress combo is (of which the cooldowns mean I can't keep much control going at all).  But, spammable KD?  What?  Where?  It seems well worth keeping Neckbreaker for smaller scale given the ease of targeting healers and squish DPS and avoiding tanks, sure, but what spammable KD?  Also, minotaur rush is clunk as custard to use even in ideal conditions as all offensive/utility movement skills are, especially so in close quarters (this and all melee made all the worse with the camera spin issues and their current hit detection system).  If you have advice, try giving it rather than a condescending L2P, eh?

 

For sure, I hope they bake in a few things for tanks so there's value in targeting them rather than ignoring them completely, either that or we need more reliable peel or other utility.

The advice is there... you even quoted it.  And minotaur rush isnt hard to hit.  You cannot outdps a healer?  No single dps can out dps a healer unless the healer sucks.  No class is killing a healer 1v1, thats the way it should be.  If that was the case then they'd be extremely marginalized.  And out DPSing a healer is not a tanks job anyway. 

It sounds like you are using CC at the wrong time and possibly in the wrong order.  Sounds like there are abilities available to your class you do not even know about.  Sounds like you think a tanks role is to out dps a healer.  Sounds like you cannot hit racial abilities.  Sounds like you think a "retaliate buffing disc" is best suited for a tank.  L2P wasn't condescending, I think playing this class for a while and learning it will fix all your problems.

Edited by Ble

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Provoke skill in a disc: provokes a target reducing there dmg output by 50% on all targets but you. There should be a noticeable indicator for person taunted showing the target/targets that taunted him. 


Veeshan Midst of UXA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2019 at 8:35 PM, Deioth said:

So far, after finally having a chance to give Crowfall some proper play time, I'm trying to figure out the best fit for tanks.  Having done a lot of skirmishing, small-to-medium group forts, and a couple sieges my Pit Fighter feels great in siege but near worthless elsewhere.  People tend to focus healers hard and my Q feels worthless a lot of the time in smaller group PVP--so I can always use Neckbreaker outside of Siege--but the fact still remains that I feel like I lack utility.  If the enemy also has a healer, I can't seem to generate value outside of Siege.  I've also got a Battle Rager but only did some 1v1 and small group fights in an EK.  I'd need more time to experiment and learn him (if I bother, thematically I prefer a 2h mace tank) and he plays quite differently, but I only have moderately more utility (that is, more consistent value utility) with the net pull.  He similarly feels unfulfilling.  The survivability is up there for both when played right, so it's not that I have an issue there, but it does feel like I cannot "tank" very well.  With an apparent lack of taunt and protective abilities for me to make good and consistent use of my survivability, I feel really lacking outside of sieges where it can shine to initiate a push, cause panic, and actually draw fire.

 

What are everyone else's thoughts?  I'm aware that the consensus seems to be that the CC classes are in a similar boat given how strong Retaliate can be.  I want to be able to skirmish with my pit fighter (granted the group I am in right now isn't the best comp for synergy but still) rather than need him for siege and an Alpha Warrior everywhere else.  Is there a good discipline I can take to get me the damage and utility for skirmishes and small scale?

I think that "really lacking outside of sieges" might be intentional design.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, oneply said:

Traditional “tanks” are a pve mindset not a PvP one. A “tank” is left for last cause they don’t impact the fight as much as a healer or bursty dps. 

That is very off statement for me as I have never played a tank in any mmorpg because I wanted to PvE only PvP.  Always going into the back line for healers and mages to cause chaos in large fights.  I have always had more CC than other other role by a long shot.  In crowfall why do you need a tank in PvE a ranger with the right spec tanks better with life leech and does 2x the damage.

Everyone has multiple CC's in this game.  Range CC should not even exist unless it is only a slow for small % of movement speed for a small amount of time.

Are Healers in CF really designed to be the best 1v1 characters?  Healers should rely on other players to do things that the healer can't do.

Reminds me of a short time in Albion when I had a super healer spec with good gear and went around in cloth armor kitting and destroying most players in duels until devs realized it was a catching fad and OP and made major adjustments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Felagunda said:

That is very off statement for me as I have never played a tank in any mmorpg because I wanted to PvE only PvP.  Always going into the back line for healers and mages to cause chaos in large fights.  I have always had more CC than other other role by a long shot.  In crowfall why do you need a tank in PvE a ranger with the right spec tanks better with life leech and does 2x the damage.

pve isnt meant to be challenging in cf

Everyone has multiple CC's in this game.  Range CC should not even exist unless it is only a slow for small % of movement speed for a small amount of time.

why?

Are Healers in CF really designed to be the best 1v1 characters?  Healers should rely on other players to do things that the healer can't do.

if by best 1v1 character you mean angrily staring at you while you walk away because they literally cant do anything then yes healers are the best 1v1 characters in the game

 


hoayaga2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, APE said:

This seems pretty simple to implement assuming "taunt" is something the devs could create and code.

Make it work on 3rd attack, make it part of a combo chain (taunt or do something useful in PVP), make it a stand a lone power either basic or promo, add a "Meat Shiel" Discipline.

If PVE is expected to be a major time sink in this game, they need to build characters to function properly with it.

My thinking was to just make a taunt minor disc that enhances your attacks to generate threat and another to reduce threat. No equipped passives or anything, just a built in function like elven eyes.

These would be solid 3rd minors as most builds have a really hard time deciding what to do with that 3rd minor slot and end up taking elven eyes just because.  It'd align pretty well with the situational power style they seem to want minors to have. Maybe give those discs bonus pve defense and damage respectively so they're a little more attractive as "farming discs"

I'd prefer that freedom to be given to the players in stead of hardcoding it based on class abilities or taking up power tray space.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Felagunda said:

That is very off statement for me as I have never played a tank in any mmorpg because I wanted to PvE only PvP.  Always going into the back line for healers and mages to cause chaos in large fights.  I have always had more CC than other other role by a long shot.  In crowfall why do you need a tank in PvE a ranger with the right spec tanks better with life leech and does 2x the damage.

Everyone has multiple CC's in this game.  Range CC should not even exist unless it is only a slow for small % of movement speed for a small amount of time.

Are Healers in CF really designed to be the best 1v1 characters?  Healers should rely on other players to do things that the healer can't do.

Tank is a role not a class/spec. Traditional “tanks” don’t jump into the back line. They’re called “tanks” cause they soak up damage and keep attention (cc/aggro mechanics). If you’re playing it as a back line character (disrupter) that’s a different role than a tank. 

In CF that makes the Cleric and Templar (situational) the best tanks. First, you have to kill the healers to win the battle (attention of enemy). Second, they can soak up damage endlessly if spec’d correctly. And both have good cc mechanics. If your squad sticks to them you’re a hard crew to kill. Separate and you die....or run away while your crew dies. 

pve is junk in this game, which is sad with how much dev time has been wasted on them. Several specs can solo bosses and the majority of it is face roll.  The only topic concerning pve in this game should be how fun it is not.

And to end, the traditional mindset of mmorpg classes can go suck it, they’re stale and beaten to death. The horse is literally dust at this point. 

1v1 is a completely separate topic. The only role is to kill your opponent or get away before they get you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ble said:

The advice is there... you even quoted it.  And minotaur rush isnt hard to hit.  You cannot outdps a healer?  No single dps can out dps a healer unless the healer sucks.  No class is killing a healer 1v1, thats the way it should be.  If that was the case then they'd be extremely marginalized.  And out DPSing a healer is not a tanks job anyway. 

It sounds like you are using CC at the wrong time and possibly in the wrong order.  Sounds like there are abilities available to your class you do not even know about.  Sounds like you think a tanks role is to out dps a healer.  Sounds like you cannot hit racial abilities.  Sounds like you think a "retaliate buffing disc" is best suited for a tank.  L2P wasn't condescending, I think playing this class for a while and learning it will fix all your problems.

1. All movement skills inflict damage and effects at the end of their animation.  It's very easy to slide past a player.  This is made even worse given the current stability of the camera with how often and randomly it "snaps" where nudging the mouse a millimeter suddenly turns your camera around a full 180 in one frame.  They are difficult to aim reliably in the current state of the game because of this, rather than having the benefit of actual "activation" on actual impact.

 

2. Since focusing a healer is an important strategy, a lot of my current experiences involved having little else I feel I can reliably do to make important plays.  Given the game's design, yes, a dedicated healer spec should be able to solo outheal a single DPS reliably, so it's understandable I am worse off not being one, but that further lends to the problem.  Even if I could reliably hit my soft and hard CC with consistency, it's only so impactful against a single person, and if there are multiple targets to peel (which is common in skirmish and small scale) I feel that much less valuable given how counterable CC is with how good chase skills are, the state of Retaliate, and the high cooldowns on control abilities.  Since I am not focused as a tank given there's no value in focusing me, my survivability is made meaningless.  Since peeling provides value, I'm better off going the CC class route to peel or the DPS route in hopes I hit too hard for them to want to continue to commit.  This is where I want advice and feedback.  To be blunt, your attitude and response to me are not either of those things.  If a tank's job isn't attacking the healer, but the CC prestige class peels better, what IS a tank's job other than collecting dust between sieges where the survivability actually has value?

 

3. It's true that practice makes perfect and I fully respect my current noobishness (folks I'm playing with are just as green despite us being good PvPers generally, so no disagreement on learning the game).  I've only really just started playing Crowfall seriously (as previous iterations just felt far too clunky, and at the time I wanted to play myrmidon which was garbage given its resource management issues).  But, that's the whole damn point of this thread.  You again aren't actually answering my queries or offering help.  Champion does not have a KD ability at all other than Neckbreaker if you're building a Pit Fighter tank.  If you're referring to the Barbarian focused Warrior skill and I have to use that to feel useful as a tank (as opposed to, you know, the one designed for Pit Fighter) then that is a problem.  At that point, I'd just play Barbarian, but apparently CC is not in a good spot because Retaliate is so good, so I'd just play Alpha Warrior.  At either point, I am not playing a tank.  Either offer real help, offer real feedback, or kindly find another thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...