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Staff

A Reason to Fight

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Despite the circus that thread is boogis does have a point, fighting to fight is great for the winners, i dont feel demotivated to seek out fights right now but the sheep will so we need to give them a reason to fight besides them being forced too, and one of the greatest ways i have seen a game pull sheep into pvp was ESO's pvp ranks, they locked the best stamina healing behind alliance ranks and the best shaders such as legate black and palatine white. Rprs enter cyrodiil to get some shaders, pvers enter cyrodiil so they can heal themselves in dungeons, continually creating a pvp cycle. 

Currently pvping outside of a fort or keep costs everyone, no one wins these fights in reality because nothing is gained, only gear dura being lost and a 2 minute fly back to a respawn for the losers gets handed out. If during these fights you gained say 1k pvp points towards your next rank even a loss wont feel as bad since you made progress and a victory will feel so much sweeter seeing 5k pvp points pop up at the bottom of your screen.

For dregs i dont imagine we'll have a problem finding enemies to fight but incentivizing fighting in factions probably will be hard, adding pvp ranks with rewards will help alleviate faction stacking, avoiding fights, and backcapping in just one change. PvP ranks do promote zerging for points but they also promote small scale at the same time, in ESO i ran solo most of the time because i didnt want to split my points with others, the sheep i hunted had a chance against the greedy lone wolf as opposed to rolling in with the entire pack and getting a paltry amount of points. 

Another great thing with the pvp ranks was it also made fights around keeps or keep resources valuable due to extra points being rewarded to the victors at the end, a current problem we have with fort windows is chaos doesnt show up until the last 5 minutes, i bet theyd show up to try and fight before that if the longer we fought and the more died during the window meant getting more points to whoever owns it in the end. You can even reward special pvp ranks to winners of certain campaigns like "General of Cybele" for the top 3 guild masters on the winning faction. 

BUT we dont have to stop at pvp ranks, we can make harvesting ranks and crafting ranks involving the sacrifice process and giving it meaning past level 30. A problem crafters and harvesters will have is eventually they wont have something to do, whether it be because theyre stonewalled by passives or their guild just simply does not need more mats and the trader life doesnt appeal to them. Heres some possible examples for those ranks to hopefully keep them occupied during these downtimes.

crafter rank 1- sac 5 white daggers with 90 max damage

crafter rank 984- craft a blue dagger with x max damage with only 1 damage reroll

crafter rank 200974883- sac 3 legendary 2h maces with +20% crit damage and 138 max damage

harvester rank 1- sac 200 white ore/50 white leather/ 100 white wood/ 200 white stone 

harvester rank 984- mine x amount of nodes in 30 minutes

harvester rank 200974883- sac 20 legendary halite and 20 legendary grave goods

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7 hours ago, Staff said:

Despite the circus that thread is boogis does have a point, fighting to fight is great for the winners, i dont feel demotivated to seek out fights right now but the sheep will so we need to give them a reason to fight besides them being forced too, and one of the greatest ways i have seen a game pull sheep into pvp was ESO's pvp ranks, they locked the best stamina healing behind alliance ranks and the best shaders such as legate black and palatine white. Rprs enter cyrodiil to get some shaders, pvers enter cyrodiil so they can heal themselves in dungeons, continually creating a pvp cycle. 

Currently pvping outside of a fort or keep costs everyone, no one wins these fights in reality because nothing is gained, only gear dura being lost and a 2 minute fly back to a respawn for the losers gets handed out. If during these fights you gained say 1k pvp points towards your next rank even a loss wont feel as bad since you made progress and a victory will feel so much sweeter seeing 5k pvp points pop up at the bottom of your screen.

For dregs i dont imagine we'll have a problem finding enemies to fight but incentivizing fighting in factions probably will be hard, adding pvp ranks with rewards will help alleviate faction stacking, avoiding fights, and backcapping in just one change. PvP ranks do promote zerging for points but they also promote small scale at the same time, in ESO i ran solo most of the time because i didnt want to split my points with others, the sheep i hunted had a chance against the greedy lone wolf as opposed to rolling in with the entire pack and getting a paltry amount of points. 

Another great thing with the pvp ranks was it also made fights around keeps or keep resources valuable due to extra points being rewarded to the victors at the end, a current problem we have with fort windows is chaos doesnt show up until the last 5 minutes, i bet theyd show up to try and fight before that if the longer we fought and the more died during the window meant getting more points to whoever owns it in the end. You can even reward special pvp ranks to winners of certain campaigns like "General of Cybele" for the top 3 guild masters on the winning faction. 

BUT we dont have to stop at pvp ranks, we can make harvesting ranks and crafting ranks involving the sacrifice process and giving it meaning past level 30. A problem crafters and harvesters will have is eventually they wont have something to do, whether it be because theyre stonewalled by passives or their guild just simply does not need more mats and the trader life doesnt appeal to them. Heres some possible examples for those ranks to hopefully keep them occupied during these downtimes.

crafter rank 1- sac 5 white daggers with 90 max damage

crafter rank 984- craft a blue dagger with x max damage with only 1 damage reroll

crafter rank 200974883- sac 3 legendary 2h maces with +20% crit damage and 138 max damage

harvester rank 1- sac 200 white ore/50 white leather/ 100 white wood/ 200 white stone 

harvester rank 984- mine x amount of nodes in 30 minutes

harvester rank 200974883- sac 20 legendary halite and 20 legendary grave goods

Daoc did something along these lines as small incremental abilities/stats were given along with a title when and as you achieved realm/pvp rank. 

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43 minutes ago, DoomYa said:

There shouldn´t be "sheep" in any competition. If you need sheep, you lack sportsmanship.

Sportsmanship usually isn't included in these types of games. For actual competitive formats it's best to look to other games/genres. At least that's what I do. ACE and some of the community seem to believe that quality PVP content is ganking people harvesting and doing PVE. Which is fine to to a point, but really wish ACE had better plans for "sheepless" PVP.

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3 minutes ago, DoomYa said:

Yes, ganking ppl and choosing when to fight  and when not is for cowards. That´s not PvP.

Some believe that is 200 IQ playing. 

 

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Anyone who knowingly chooses to PvE in a open world PvP sandbox is a PvPer. The sheep and the wolves are the same people. One day you are hunting, and the next you are hunted.


IhhQKY6.gif

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9 minutes ago, Jah said:

Anyone who knowingly chooses to PvE in a open world PvP sandbox is a PvPer. The sheep and the wolves are the same people. One day you are hunting, and the next you are hunted.

If only there was a reason for two wolves to hunt each other, besides the prized reward of gear breaking.

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1 hour ago, DoomYa said:

Yes, ganking ppl and choosing when to fight  and when not is for cowards. That´s not PvP.

Sounds like you’re looking for a moba.  If you want even fights then CF isn’t for you.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 hours ago, DoomYa said:

choosing when to fight  and when not is for cowards

when youre playing league of legends and see the enemy team pushing mid with all 5 do you jump in and feed solo or not fight them

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DoomYa said:

Yes, ganking ppl and choosing when to fight  and when not is for cowards. That´s not PvP.

I don't think you understand the primary difference between world pvp and arena pvp.

Good arena pvp games are designed to create a strict and orderly level playing field in which the competition is determined solely by mechanical or direct fight planning skills and are designed to remove the impact of any other factors.

Good world pvp games are designed to be to be a sandbox full of systems which encourage creativity, invention, social heirarchies, and cunning as avenues to victory in addition to, or in the absence of mechanical or direct fight planning skills.

This is also why they're far harder to design successfully, as the goal of said designs is to both offer players the largest amount of freedom to overcome one another while limiting the impact of loss enough that those who lose are still encouraged to try another game plan, another alliance, another trick, or just plain get better at fighting. Any of the above are not just viable but intended strategies around which the core rules of the game are designed.

What you consider "real pvp" is a game in which concepts like "coward" and "brave" are meaningless because they are inviolable concepts enforced by the software. You don't have to be brave in a game which systemically ensures every fight you are in has an exactly 50% mechanical chance of a win because any other fight is impossible.

Attempting to enforce your own particular brand of e-honor on yourself is your own choice. Expecting everyone else to adhere to it in a genre known for encouraging its absence and encouraging robbery, overwhelming numbers, treachery, and betrayal as a *feature* is just unrealistic.

You're playing a game where not only the assumption but the expectation is that victory is perfectly achievable by cowards, so long as they're clever cowards. No matter what else happens in development that's not going to change, and calling people cowards isn't going to get you anything but made fun of for not understanding the environment you're in.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, APE said:

If only there was a reason for two wolves to hunt each other, besides the prized reward of gear breaking.

There are. Some of them aren't working properly, and some aren't implemented yet. But there are reasons for wolves to hunt each other.

Plus everyone in Crowfall are wolves to some extent.


IhhQKY6.gif

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2 hours ago, APE said:

If only there was a reason for two wolves to hunt each other, besides the prized reward of gear breaking.

The prize is victory, and the poorly made socks talking/ego that comes with it. Play to crush and all that jazz.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Zatch said:

and the poorly made socks talking

You must have this game confused with another game, we aren’t allowed to forumfall.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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My opinion is based on my open world PvP experiences in the first decade of WoW, BDO and GW2, to name some of the worst and best examples. 

Open PvP in WoW was horrible, because none of the quests involved PvP and it only slowed down your progress if someone, who didn´t get anything for harrassing you, came your way. Usually everyone thought that way, so it was common to quest side by side with the enemy. This trusty situation made ganking even easier. 

PvP in BDO is great, because you come to that spot for a reason: You both want to grind there and it´s too small for both of you. If you see red at your spot, you know you have to fight. 

PvP (RvR) in GW2 is fun as well, because you meet to... PvP.


@Jah I doubt that most ppl will be equally the sheep and the hunter. 

See a siege as a menu. Everyone knows that we need to eat at the end of the day, but still it´s the same few people who bring the food, cook and serve it day by day. When the masses show up, they mourn that there would be a bigger and better meal if we were specialized in bringing and cooking. Just like they are specialized in farming the sheep. 
In this implementation of a sheep and hunter game only the social people pay the bill. What a nice reward for doing extra hours for the team.  

If you want to have a working sheep and hunter game, make it turn based as on the schoolyard. 

You think those hunters would protect the sheep? Think twice. Why would they do that. They had to fight other hunters instead of easy prey and most of them doesn´t realize the importance of farming and crafting anyways. We all lose the siege? Doesn´t matter for them, they had their fun. And it is clearly not their fault. They won every battle.
 

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in near future devs obviously should think about motivation to participation in pvp.

there should be reason to go outside safe zone/god's reach. best ways here is pvp ranks (with some bonuses), global leaderboard with history (available via api/stats site), more econimics impact to motivate ppl go outside of safe zones and fight for (local based resources linked to current keep, unique resources and such).

atm there is no reason to pvp except for fun imo.
pvp for pvp reason is no matter. I saw it, it does not works.


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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4 hours ago, DoomYa said:

My opinion is based on my open world PvP experiences in the first decade of WoW, BDO and GW2, to name some of the worst and best examples. 

Open PvP in WoW was horrible, because none of the quests involved PvP and it only slowed down your progress if someone, who didn´t get anything for harrassing you, came your way. Usually everyone thought that way, so it was common to quest side by side with the enemy. This trusty situation made ganking even easier. 

PvP in BDO is great, because you come to that spot for a reason: You both want to grind there and it´s too small for both of you. If you see red at your spot, you know you have to fight. 

PvP (RvR) in GW2 is fun as well, because you meet to... PvP.


@Jah I doubt that most ppl will be equally the sheep and the hunter. 

See a siege as a menu. Everyone knows that we need to eat at the end of the day, but still it´s the same few people who bring the food, cook and serve it day by day. When the masses show up, they mourn that there would be a bigger and better meal if we were specialized in bringing and cooking. Just like they are specialized in farming the sheep. 
In this implementation of a sheep and hunter game only the social people pay the bill. What a nice reward for doing extra hours for the team.  

If you want to have a working sheep and hunter game, make it turn based as on the schoolyard. 

You think those hunters would protect the sheep? Think twice. Why would they do that. They had to fight other hunters instead of easy prey and most of them doesn´t realize the importance of farming and crafting anyways. We all lose the siege? Doesn´t matter for them, they had their fun. And it is clearly not their fault. They won every battle.
 

So join a guild?!


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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16 hours ago, APE said:

If only there was a reason for two wolves to hunt each other, besides the prized reward of gear breaking.

Tbh gear should be 10 times easier to craft with less durability however paper doll gets dropped as well as the inventory. Easy come easy go and every fight contains some loot. 


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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7 hours ago, DoomYa said:

 

You think those hunters would protect the sheep? Think twice. Why would they do that. They had to fight other hunters instead of easy prey and most of them doesn´t realize the importance of farming and crafting anyways. We all lose the siege? Doesn´t matter for them, they had their fun. And it is clearly not their fault. They won every battle.
 

I spend alot of my campaign in our action territory keeping our farmers safe.with exception of this once cause no one is farming in the campaign. 2 reason for this ganking harvesters atm yield basicly nothing. They auto bank every time they get hit and stand there while u hit them you physically gain nothing. 

Fighting to protect your faction harvesters allowed them to catch up gear wise and you gained more pvp skills cause your actually fighting people who fight back. Think I've gotten more from defending our gathers loot wise than attacking there they tend to be thankful for your help and pass you resources sometimes. 


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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37 minutes ago, veeshan said:

They auto bank every time they get hit

You wait until attacked to bank? Since that's the game we have, I'm banking after every node cluster.

#EndOpenWorldBanking

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