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A Reason to Fight

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21 minutes ago, VaMei said:

You wait until attacked to bank? Since that's the game we have, I'm banking after every node cluster.

#EndOpenWorldBanking

I’m going with some next level poorly made socks too. Hear me out, I don’t login so I can’t die so people can’t get loot off of me.  Boom!  Just exploded some knowledge into some poor readers mind. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Posted (edited)

@Staff idea has merit. It would essentially be an extension of the leaderboard that's already in place.

Aside from bragging rights, the main reason to fight in Crowfall is resources.

We're Crows scavenging dying worlds for valuable resources. We fight for the right (exports) to bring those resources back to our kingdoms. 

The problems, which @jtoddcoleman and team must address, is the lack of scarcity/competition over these resources (R8's in the safe zone) as well as a reason to want to export them (other than importing them into the next campaign) which would be some sort of EK tie in. 

A while ago there was an idea tossed around about relics you could keep in your EK that would give you or your guild boosts in the campaign worlds. Boosts along the lines of what the badges give right now. If that was tied into resource export (relics require mass resources to build) then maybe people would care a bit more about EK's and it could tie the whole loop together. 

Right now we're fighting for the sake of fighting (testing?) but eventually the EK -> Campaign World loop must be completed and resource scarcity is how you do that. 

Edited by blazzen

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blazzen said:

Right now we're fighting for the sake of fighting (testing?) but eventually the EK -> Campaign World loop must be completed and resource scarcity is how you do that. 

My big question is,  if the best crafting is done at a keep, why do I want more exports than I can import unless it takes multiple campaigns to aquire the mats I need to make something? If campaigns will last for months, how long is it going to take to gather mats for this grand creation? 

With the whole embargo import/export thing building a wall between each of the dying world campaigns and the persistent game world, there's a lot of unanswered questions about what will tie it all together.

Edit: hopefully this is like one of those movies where none of the scenes have anything to do with each other until the final minutes where it all comes together and it finally makes sense. 🤞🙏

Edited by VaMei

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What metrics are the ranks based off of? KDA isn’t truly accurate to all contributions of PvP. Not enought metrics are tracked and the ones that are are questionable in accuracy (pve deaths still count as PvP deaths). So if buffs/rewards are only attainable by a rank then the meta will be hyper focused on the few builds that are optimal for it. Case in point, half the server is playing/leveling a ranger to abuse the overpowered LMB button. You’ll see less and less willing to be out there healing. 

Plus basing it off this tiny population of players doesn’t give an accurate story of what the conditions will be like if the game is mildly successful and we have a lot more people running abouts.  

 

there is no way this game survives if the main draw for PvP is over high lvl resources in scarcity. Gatherers will move to safe zones and then eventually stop playing the game. We need the sheep or better PvP objectives to get the wolves attacking each other. Resources are not the way, living in the past (sb) doesn’t solve today’s problems. 

Ranks are for theme parks and mobas. Objective PvP with impacts/repercussions fit into the sandboxish PvP games like CF. Right now there is no impact or repercussions for any objective in the game. Change that and the PvP will ignite. 

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4 hours ago, VaMei said:

You wait until attacked to bank? Since that's the game we have, I'm banking after every node cluster.

#EndOpenWorldBanking

not any more bank when stamina runs out :P
Previous campaign with old import/export was bank the moment someone hit them scenario


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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2 hours ago, VaMei said:

My big question is,  if the best crafting is done at a keep, why do I want more exports than I can import unless it takes multiple campaigns to aquire the mats I need to make something? If campaigns will last for months, how long is it going to take to gather mats for this grand creation? 

With the whole embargo import/export thing building a wall between each of the dying world campaigns and the persistent game world, there's a lot of unanswered questions about what will tie it all together.

Edit: hopefully this is like one of those movies where none of the scenes have anything to do with each other until the final minutes where it all comes together and it finally makes sense. 🤞🙏

Yeah, I dunno. EK's just aren't tied into the loop very well right now. Without EK's having value, exports don't really mean much other than imports for next campaign. I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than to try to give EK's some type of campaign value (without getting uncle bob). 

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@blazzen the moment they add scarcity to resources so that people must directly contend the 25 man balance alliance is the moment the tears flood the boards and we will need Dwayne Johnson to come be a full time lifeguard.  The hordes of disorganized fools that play this game solo/3 people will absolutely get smashed into oblivion if forced to contest superior forces.  I think the root problem is in people thinking they should be 3 man guilds since that’s anathema to the idea of a throne war simulator. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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12 hours ago, blazzen said:

Yeah, I dunno. EK's just aren't tied into the loop very well right now. Without EK's having value, exports don't really mean much other than imports for next campaign. I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than to try to give EK's some type of campaign value (without getting uncle bob). 

So we had a chat with Todd about this and the basic messaging was that EKs are something he views as very important, and something that he doesn't want to be devoid of gameplay.

EK's are on backburner right now, but the idea we have right now of them being simply trophy rooms seems to not line up with Todd's vision for them, which is that they're places that you care about for whatever reason enough that the EKs ALONE are a compelling reason to want to export things. The idea behind exports is that you should care enough about EKs that importing in to the next campaign is actually your second rather than first motivation for exports.

Currently that's not the case, obviously. EK's are barely functional and serve only as trophy and trade spaces.

How ACE is going to bring EKs up to that level remains to be seen as the goals we've heard are:

  • EKs should have little to no effect on the competitive balance of any given campaign.
  • EKs are player built, and player controlled.
  • EKs should be the thing that makes you want to export, and by extension, the thing that makes you want to win.
  • EKs should not function as the native source of value. All value is exported in some form from campaigns to be utilized in the EK.
  • EKs should have gameplay in them, and be spaces people want to play in rather than just socialize and trade.

 

Does that sound like a tall order? Yeah. Its also vital connective tissue that closes crowfall's core gameplay loop connecting one campaign to the next. Its also probably the LAST major feature set that'll be implemented, and as such it makes sense that its also the one we've heard the least about.

Sucks, but there it is.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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It would be a reason to fight or do something in the campaign if the passive skill tree would be substituted for points earned in that campaign for that vessel. WinWinWin!

That way we would get rid of this awful "wait a long time until you can do something useful with ONE vessel" and replace it with "work while you play for the vessel you actually play with".

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, DoomYa said:

It would be a reason to fight or do something in the campaign if the passive skill tree would be substituted for points earned in that campaign for that vessel. WinWinWin!

That way we would get rid of this awful "wait a long time until you can do something useful with ONE vessel" and replace it with "work while you play for the vessel you actually play with".

The reason that isn't a thing is that the entire point of the passive tree is to prevent you from having to grind out those advantages so when you sit down to play you're more focused on what you can do right now, and to prevent those kinds of permanent advantages from being solely the domain of people with more time to actively play.

The active advancement in CF is economic, and this is by design.

Passive training's purpose is to ensure specialization and prevent one account from being able to do everything at top tier efficiency so people need friends or trade to happen. It is an inherently social system.

The Vessel's purpose is to ensure that players must actually play the game and choose a narrow selection of specializations so that passive training alone does not grant top end permanent performance enhancements. They're there to make sure simply letting an account train for a year doesn't make you the best at a thing and that you need to get some play time in to either assemble or get a vessel assembled for you, and to sink time or wealth in to that vessel.

The purpose of gear is so that to finish a character, after acquiring the performance enancements of both training and a vessel, you must continually engage with the game to recplace that gear. This is also to prevent you from having an endlessly increasing number of roles for which you are best at.

These three systems together are designed to ensure that neither grinding alone, or training alone gets you everything, and that using both your time and your wealth intelligently are required to finish and maintain a build so that neither grinding or passive training alone will give you access to everything in the game.

They're also designed to ensure that each player can only be truly masterful at a very limited set of skills without also requiring the player to spend so much time grinding to STAY masterful at those skills that they can't actually use them to do anything fun with like pvp or getting rich.

The system you propose would ensure that grind and grind alone determines the total sum of a character's abilities, as well as require a constant grind to reach even basic levels of competancy. This is a terrible system for a pvp game in the long term as it ensures that playtime alone determines who rises to the top in a world where its foolish to expect everyone playing your game to have equal amounts of time to play it.

The problem with PvP rewards is that they're not in line with *any* form of advancement. They're a net loss even for winners. They serve only to degrade your equipment at the moment, in effect making you pay twice for your exports as now you have to farm harder just to replace gear in order to farm to export materials. This won't change even when they're tied to wins and losses as losing in a game which offers the losers some exports, even if not as many, still ends up paying the loser greater value in wealth versus time spent earning it that the winner, who must spend time doing a ton of pvp, replacing pvp gear, as well as farming enough material to fill an even larger pool of exports.

Winning in a lot of cases is more work for less reward. Why would I want to win if it pays less?

Edited by PopeUrban

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14 hours ago, mandalore said:

@blazzen the moment they add scarcity to resources so that people must directly contend the 25 man balance alliance is the moment the tears flood the boards and we will need Dwayne Johnson to come be a full time lifeguard.  The hordes of disorganized fools that play this game solo/3 people will absolutely get smashed into oblivion if forced to contest superior forces.  I think the root problem is in people thinking they should be 3 man guilds since that’s anathema to the idea of a throne war simulator. 

Resource scarcity is essential to this game. 

The entire premise is that we're eternal crows scavenging dying worlds. The resources in these dying worlds HAVE to be more valuable than what's in god's reach otherwise why are we going there? There has to be a reason to bring them back also (either building up EK's or for the next campaign) otherwise, again, what's the point?

The resources scavenged from these dying worlds are literally THE REASON TO FIGHT. Bragging rights are of course a reason also but that is in a way fighting for the sake of fighting. If players want a more tangible reason to fight then resources is it. 

The whole thing falls apart without resource scarcity. With the lower power curve and  mob dropped loot you can now have resource scarcity without driving off all of the n00bs. There's no reason to put high rank resources in safe zones. There's no reason to cover the entire campaign map with R10's. We must have resource scarcity if that's the main thing we're fighting over in these dying worlds. 

Crowfall has a very, very small pre-alpha population that struggles to maintain triple digits on either server. The current faction imbalance, politics, etc. is of very little concern to the fundamental principle of resource scarcity in Crowfall. 

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5 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

 

How ACE is going to bring EKs up to that level remains to be seen as the goals we've heard are:

  • EKs should have little to no effect on the competitive balance of any given campaign.
  • EKs should be the thing that makes you want to export, and by extension, the thing that makes you want to win.

These two things are not compatible 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Zatch said:

EKs bing tied to armor dies or other comesmetics would work.

yes if certain tiers of eks would unlock more armor customization would be cool. 

Edited by Marth

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2 minutes ago, Marth said:

yes if certain tiers of eks would unlock more armor customization would be cool. 

Winning trials and sacrificing exporting resources to specific gods could give access to specific trophies, armor dyes building skins, etc. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Zatch said:

Winning trials and sacrificing exporting resources to specific gods could give access to specific trophies, armor dyes building skins, etc. 

but then you dont build up eks you just take the min to sacrifice. If its tied to ek progression it encourages guilds to build up the ek

Edited by Marth

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Crazy idea here:

What if EKs were more than empty husks.

Like Dragon Quest Builders 2 is basically Minecraft but in stead of being about upgrading yourself its about building/upgrading a functional town that has residents and so on and upgrading yourself is actually a means to that end in stead of the whole end.

Imagine EKs were primarily focused around city building, but not that sort of dead city building you're used to in MMOs. In stead imagine they were focused around living cities, and their primary gameplay loop was that those cities warred with each other in wars you were forbidden to interfere with.

So your personal war, campaigns, is all about exporting loot, but the greater and persistant war is that of those eternal kingdoms, the last unconsumed places in existence, combatting outside agressors and the hunger.

That war, and as such the status and wealth of your kingdom is the root gameplay loop, provides you with skins, and has the function of high value transformation but not generation of wealth.

Important stuff NPC EK citizens could do without impacting campaign balance:

Traders could transform materials to other other materials by trading with NPC kingdoms (now your 900 iron could maybe in stead be 500 silver! What about 600 Oak?)

Farmers could grow food by composting wood and other food (Maybe you actually don't like picking mushrooms)

Armies could raid npc kingdoms or monster hives for trophies and loot at the cost of equipping them with gear (Turn those looted swords in to looted leather, meat, and decorative trophies!)

Sentries and medical professionals could keep your citizens from experiencing illness and death at the cost of gold or remedies (Who wants to personally babysit their kingdom every time it gets invaded by urgu?)

NPC Nobles could keep you appraised of activity in other EKs, but require servants to work for them in stead of a more useful job (Maybe you'd like to know when srathor's lawn has purple crafting hands below a certain gold cost?)


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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2 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Crazy idea here:

What if EKs were more than empty husks.

Like Dragon Quest Builders 2 is basically Minecraft but in stead of being about upgrading yourself its about building/upgrading a functional town that has residents and so on and upgrading yourself is actually a means to that end in stead of the whole end.

Imagine EKs were primarily focused around city building, but not that sort of dead city building you're used to in MMOs. In stead imagine they were focused around living cities, and their primary gameplay loop was that those cities warred with each other in wars you were forbidden to interfere with.

So your personal war, campaigns, is all about exporting loot, but the greater and persistant war is that of those eternal kingdoms, the last unconsumed places in existence, combatting outside agressors and the hunger.

That war, and as such the status and wealth of your kingdom is the root gameplay loop, provides you with skins, and has the function of high value transformation but not generation of wealth.

Important stuff NPC EK citizens could do without impacting campaign balance:

Traders could transform materials to other other materials by trading with NPC kingdoms (now your 900 iron could maybe in stead be 500 silver! What about 600 Oak?)

Farmers could grow food by composting wood and other food (Maybe you actually don't like picking mushrooms)

Armies could raid npc kingdoms or monster hives for trophies and loot at the cost of equipping them with gear (Turn those looted swords in to looted leather, meat, and decorative trophies!)

Sentries and medical professionals could keep your citizens from experiencing illness and death at the cost of gold or remedies (Who wants to personally babysit their kingdom every time it gets invaded by urgu?)

NPC Nobles could keep you appraised of activity in other EKs, but require servants to work for them in stead of a more useful job (Maybe you'd like to know when srathor's lawn has purple crafting hands below a certain gold cost?)

would require effort being put into eks so i would call it a crazy idea.

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3 minutes ago, Marth said:

would require effort being put into eks so i would call it a crazy idea.

All I can say on that front is what I said before. That Todd says that EKs are vitally important to him and a large part of the game loop that it simply doesn't make sense to invest time in until the campaigns are squared away.

I don't think the idea of ACE investing extreme effort in to EKs is crazy. I think the idea of ACE investing that effort when cmbat balance, powers, and campaign systems are still in flux is crazy.

The seem to be aware that EKs are their core game loop, and that they need to be truly compelling for that core loop to keep people around for more than a few campaigns.


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Just now, PopeUrban said:

All I can say on that front is what I said before. That Todd says that EKs are vitally important to him and a large part of the game loop that it simply doesn't make sense to invest time in until the campaigns are squared away.

I don't think the idea of ACE investing extreme effort in to EKs is crazy. I think the idea of ACE investing that effort when cmbat balance, powers, and campaign systems are still in flux is crazy.

The seem to be aware that EKs are their core game loop, and that they need to be truly compelling for that core loop to keep people around for more than a few campaigns.

i would agree eks and campaigns were the 2 biggest features in the ks. Most backer rewards is related to eks so i hope one day they will get focus or an update.

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