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A Reason to Fight

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When would they do all of this?  Been waiting how long on FW? Dregs?  All of this is great conversation but how and when would they do all the work required?  CF is already a 2021 release if they do a 6 month alpha and a 6 month beta and I’m assuming none of that happens in 2019.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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I think there's an aspect of the OP that wasn't explicitly discussed and that is giving an incentive for the underdogs/losers to keep fighting as well. Both sides need a reason to fight: the winners and the losers. I also played ESO and DAoC and I agree pvp points there for meaningful rewards worked great in those RvR games. Not sure how artificial that'd feel in something like Dregs though. 

I know some of you may want to mix this up with RL's educational/philosophical views that losing/underperforming shouldn't be rewarded, but this is a game and needs to be designed in such a way as to keep its population playing and engaged. That includes the losers and underdogs. The winners clearly need to get the better side of the deal, but the losers should have incentives to keep playing as well. The OP mentioned pvp points, but there could be other more organical mechanisms to encourage and incentivize people to play the underdog side, maybe even to the point of allowing a "homeless" guild/alliance to be viable to some extent. 


 

 

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5 minutes ago, mandalore said:

When would they do all of this?  Been waiting how long on FW? Dregs?  All of this is great conversation but how and when would they do all the work required?  CF is already a 2021 release if they do a 6 month alpha and a 6 month beta and I’m assuming none of that happens in 2019.  

my main point. They dont have the time to do it without taking time from another core feature of the game. So it will be called a "post launch feature (aka never happening)"

Eks are the cake from portal. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mandalore said:

When would they do all of this?  Been waiting how long on FW? Dregs?  All of this is great conversation but how and when would they do all the work required?  CF is already a 2021 release if they do a 6 month alpha and a 6 month beta and I’m assuming none of that happens in 2019.  

I don't work for ACE, I'm just parroting what Todd said about EKs being critical.

Will that happen before softlaunch? Doubtful.

Would EK context be a good candidate for the first post-softlaunch feature? Yeah, if they want to retain people for more than two campaigns.

Fact of the matter is that you've already seen the consequence of wipe based burnout in testing. The way campaigns are supposed to work, you're effectively wiping most of the player's work every three months. If there's not some really meaty connective tissue with really compelling reasons to want to win those campaigns this is going to be a huge problem for retention in CF.

I think thusfar they've been approaching it as if it were DOTA or Counterstrike or something. The idea being people will keep playing because they just like playing, even though you get (mostly) zeroed out every match. I don't think this is applicable to CF because of the length of the match. I can easily "one more game" a game I can play 4-10 sessions of in a day between work and sleep. That ability to "one more game" will also keep me coming back tomorrow because I know I can sit down and go from zero to 100 and back to zero tomorrow several times as well.

This isn't the case in a crowfall campaign that lasts three months. When I sign up for a CF campaign, I'm effectively signing up for repeating a significant amount of grind I've already moved past. If I'm in dregs I'm signing up for the difficult task of building, defending, and maintaining structures I don't get to keep. I'm signing up for a lot of tedious, boring drudge work that I already know how to do and in fact have already done once, or possibly even twice.

I already did this beta testing Starborne, which has month long campaigns that zero you out. I really like the game, and I like the campaign model it uses, but at a certain point it doesn't feel worth my time to put in all that time and effort for nothing but a chance at a cosmetic title or profile picture. I'd put in that work in a game that lasted an hour. I'd probably keep putting in that work one hour at a time, maybe for years.

The fact is that when your game is designed around something so long form, the distance between your endgame and beginning is VAST, and that gulf instantly causes players to question if its worth climbing that ladder again just to get somewhere they've already been. Lots of people want to climb Everest. Far fewer people want to climb Everest more than one time. The only people that consistently climb Everest for years on end are sherpas, and its literally their job.

"One more game" is not going to motivate me to keep showing up in this situation. What's going to motivate me to keep showing up is the assurance that its all going to a higher purpose. Some kind of superior game loop that I always have, and that I care about enough to endure this.

EKs are not just optional fluff, and ACE would do well to remember this. If you can't get people to be excited about EKs, you're going to have a hard time getting people to be excited about crowfall after their second or third campaign.

Edited by PopeUrban

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15 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

I don't work for ACE, I'm just parroting what Todd said about EKs being critical.

Will that happen before softlaunch? Doubtful.

Would EK context be a good candidate for the first post-softlaunch feature? Yeah, if they want to retain people for more than two campaigns.

Fact of the matter is that you've already seen the consequence of wipe based burnout in testing. The way campaigns are supposed to work, you're effectively wiping most of the player's work every three months. If there's not some really meaty connective tissue with really compelling reasons to want to win those campaigns this is going to be a huge problem for retention in CF.

I think thusfar they've been approaching it as if it were DOTA or Counterstrike or something. The idea being people will keep playing because they just like playing, even though you get (mostly) zeroed out every match. I don't think this is applicable to CF because of the length of the match. I can easily "one more game" a game I can play 4-10 sessions of in a day between work and sleep. That ability to "one more game" will also keep me coming back tomorrow because I know I can sit down and go from zero to 100 and back to zero tomorrow several times as well.

This isn't the case in a crowfall campaign that lasts three months. When I sign up for a CF campaign, I'm effectively signing up for repeating a significant amount of grind I've already moved past. If I'm in dregs I'm signing up for the difficult task of building, defending, and maintaining structures I don't get to keep. I'm signing up for a lot of tedious, boring drudge work that I already know how to do and in fact have already done once, or possibly even twice.

I already did this beta testing Starborne, which has month long campaigns that zero you out. I really like the game, and I like the campaign model it uses, but at a certain point it doesn't feel worth my time to put in all that time and effort for nothing but a chance at a cosmetic title or profile picture. I'd put in that work in a game that lasted an hour. I'd probably keep putting in that work one hour at a time, maybe for years.

The fact is that when your game is designed around something so long form, the distance between your endgame and beginning is VAST, and that gulf instantly causes players to question if its worth climbing that ladder again just to get somewhere they've already been. Lots of people want to climb Everest. Far fewer people want to climb Everest more than one time. The only people that consistently climb Everest for years on end are sherpas, and its literally their job.

"One more game" is not going to motivate me to keep showing up in this situation. What's going to motivate me to keep showing up is the assurance that its all going to a higher purpose. Some kind of superior game loop that I always have, and that I care about enough to endure this.

EKs are not just optional fluff, and ACE would do well to remember this. If you can't get people to be excited about EKs, you're going to have a hard time getting people to be excited about crowfall after their second or third campaign.

That bold letters crack me up.  Why even post the normal words?

I agree with you.  I want long campaigns but I don’t think the majority of the pop will. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Fact of the matter is that you've already seen the consequence of wipe based burnout in testing. The way campaigns are supposed to work, you're effectively wiping most of the player's work every three months. If there's not some really meaty connective tissue with really compelling reasons to want to win those campaigns this is going to be a huge problem for retention in CF.

I disagee. Lets be real, in pre-alpha having a wipe in 6 months will not cause burnout. Now, how many wipes have we had in the past 6 months? Skills were not even wiped this time. Having a PvP game with little PvP and a whole lot of PvE grinding doesn't help. Having simply horrible netcode wont help. Having very little communication from this dev team doesn't help. Having 24/7 testing doesn't help. Measuring how much they missed their target dates with years instead of days/months isn't helping. Once they address these issues, players will come, if not... Well ACE can always just vapor the game and concentrate on selling their artisan engine to a studio that can address these issues.

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1 minute ago, mystafyi said:

Lets be real, in pre-alpha having a wipe in 6 months will not cause burnout.

Except for the part where it did.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

I don't work for ACE, I'm just parroting what Todd said about EKs being critical.

Once my boss came into the office and announced proudly that he sold $%&/&%. He looked at our stunned faces and asked: Can we do this?

@PopeUrban It´s the job of a salesman to tell stories! ^^

Let´s judge them by what we got 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now... Then take into account that the polish takes 80 percent of the time. Now we estimate where we will be in 2025. If CF runs on 2nd gen quantum processors. 😜

 

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13 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Except for the part where it did.

I understand there is a retention issue. I am saying that it is not from a pre-alpha wipe. Yes, people complain about the rare wipe, but they are complaining about it in reference to the grinding for the sake of grind during pre-alpha. There should be very little grind at this stage... Chit man, why am I wasting time with details when the devs don't listen or even interact outside of their private subforum.

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1 minute ago, DoomYa said:

Once my boss came into the office and announced proudly that he sold $%&/&%. He looked at our stunned faces and asked: Can we do this?

@PopeUrban It´s the job of a salesman to tell stories! ^^

Let´s judge them by what we got 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now... Then take into account that the polish takes 80 percent of the time. Now we estimate where we will be in 2025. If CF runs on 2nd gen quantum processors. 😜

 

You work for a person who should probably not be in management. If someone at my company did that they'd be fired for creating expectations we may not be able to meet which could damage our brand.

Whether its possible or not is a discussion to have if we were developing the game or assessing its fitness for venture capital.

We're not.

We're customers and as customers our job is to let our unreasonable demands be known and if that fails ask to speak to a manager until they placate us with a gift card for a midrange casual dining establishment to shut us up.

Our job is to hold the salesman accountable to said promises.

My unreasonable demand is that EKs are actually worth exporting stuff to.

My salesman promised me they would be. He didn't say how exactly.


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29 minutes ago, DoomYa said:

Let´s judge them by what we got 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, now... 

Lets see.... I will goto JamesGoblin posting years ago for that answer.

 

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37 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

You work for a person who should probably not be in management. If someone at my company did that they'd be fired for creating expectations we may not be able to meet which could damage our brand.

Whether its possible or not is a discussion to have if we were developing the game or assessing its fitness for venture capital.

We're not.

We're customers and as customers our job is to let our unreasonable demands be known and if that fails ask to speak to a manager until they placate us with a gift card for a midrange casual dining establishment to shut us up.

Our job is to hold the salesman accountable to said promises.

My unreasonable demand is that EKs are actually worth exporting stuff to.

My salesman promised me they would be. He didn't say how exactly.

Dude, you should know that you made a good deal when you got half of what the salesman promised.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, DoomYa said:

Dude, you should know that you made a good deal when you got half of what the salesman promised.

Whatever company you work at is probably a ticking timebomb of bad business practices waiting for some whistleblower to sink the ship. The fact you're comfortable saying this about your company as if you feel it is normal is pretty disturbing and I'd probably look for another job if I were you.

When real companies do that repeatedly they lose market share, stock prices, and brand loyalty. It costs them millions of dollars in lost revenue in the case of large businesses or the collapse of the business in the case of small businesses.

You may also be saying these things because you heard it was normal without any first hand experience, or perhaps you really do have a really terrible manager or sales staff that has gaslighted you in to believing all salespeople or managers are as terrible as your own and you haven't bothered to check.

If you want a better analogy try politics. Politicians throughout the world routinely overpromise and underdeliver in public and nothing happens to them. This actually happens regularly enough in real life to use as an example of "how things are"

Its a much more apt comparison to how the preorder/prerelease portion of the entertainment industry works, though in the case of entertainment there's usually a "day of reckoning" on opening/release day that politicians rarely if ever experience.

That's why prerelease/early access culture is a thing now. As long as you cling to "it isn't done yet" you can avoid the day of judgement. To ACE's Credit they've been very clear about cutting and moving features around so as to NOT be in prerelease hell forever just to feature creep.

If your reasoning is "everybody lies, don't believe anybody" I'm sorry for the abusive lying world you live in and I assure you a better one is awaiting you if you merely seek it out.

My gut tells me you just say these things to sound cool though and I hope your life isn't that terrible.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

To ACE's Credit they've been very clear about cutting and moving features around so as to NOT be in prerelease hell forever just to feature creep.

4 years ago they were in prerelease with release still slated for 3 years ago. 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

4 years ago they were in prerelease with release still slated for 3 years ago. 

Which is why every time you see Todd nowadays its all "Look we're pushing to release" and "We probably won't put that in before softlaunch" and "That's a post launch feature" because like any MMO its overbudget and late and at a certain point you gotta pull that trigger.

Punished Todd in 2019 streams is a wholly different attitude than Optimist Todd in 2017 streams I think.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Realistically, I think the PvP has to be fun and accessible with enough of a punish in gear damage and time to return to the fight that there is risk - priority number one. It seems to me they are relatively close to this now. Next is tinker with the economy so that there is enough of a sink that you have to put in some effort to keep yourself geared and engaged. I do agree with the OP about PvP rewards, similar to DAoC. If those two things can be accomplished the rest will fall in place.

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