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Darksun_

3m melee, why not skill shot ranged

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17 minutes ago, Myra said:

The dev board should be visible to all, but only those 1st investors get to post with the devs. CWDS_zpsfnoy5v3j.png

I would like to atleast be able to read the boards even if i cant post in there, just leave you out of the loop.


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Definitely not fun how often I seem to miss attacks.  Even with the enemy slowed I seem to need to hold shift, as well.  The current iteration of hit detection and targeting, especially in clumps, with how free moving everyone is--such movement being precisely why I wish they stuck to their initial animation locking and went the Tera route of combat--is feeling super clunky.  At least ESO felt accurate and you knew where your hits would land (and had natural "cleave") in Wildstar.

 

They could try the best of both worlds, simply slow players and turning speed down during attacks a bit, give every melee skill a natural cleave/splash effect (basically, baked in Spirit Whip) with tests on how CC and debuff skills should apply, and then give melee a natural "stagger" so that each hit is effectively a miniature fading snare to help ensure you can stay properly glued on your target unless they juke and escape.

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8 hours ago, Darksun_ said:

So is it broken or working as intended?

it is broken and worked as intended 😃

 

there was 3 or 4 iteration of total reworking on hit mechanic and combat mechanic. all of this do not like we OR server-client side 😃


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8 hours ago, Darksun_ said:

If we are adjusting melee to not be like polearms or whatever. Shouldn't we adjust ranges to not be rockets?

Yes. 

All of it is performance client/server related, so I assume they need to test different iterations and collect data to figure out what is going to work.


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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Darksun_ said:

So that is helpful, but I can't read that board.

 

So wait, is this "dev partner board" were all the real questions and choices are made and these boards are well... kind of a waste of time? (I didn't invest enough money to take my opinions seriously.) 

No?  It’s a small forum with the same 10 people (activity comes and goes but there’s 100+ with access) posting ideas trying our best to be constructive.  There’s less clutter, less trolling and some of the ideas are good, some are bad and mostly it’s just us throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks.  The boards themselves are probably a pain in the ass for the devs but they gave them to us that hit a certain pay wall.  They’ve been pretty busy all summer so it’s mostly just us talking at each other.  I try to tag posts from general that could you a little more attention and if you got something you think is worthy then PM me and I’ll post it with your name attached.

 

I’m the last of the great trolls left on these boards but even I try not to troll good ideas. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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I just personally think it's been rolled out incorrectly.

First solve the desync.
Then start to slowly take away the range for melee.
-NOT- visa versa

As for ranged and their hitbox.  I've been advocating for the skill shots for a very long time and the reply has always been : It should be easy enough for everyone… Well ATM Ranged is not just easy it's … ridicilously easy.  Melee isn't just a challange, its just broken.  

If tightening the hitbox or changing the range of the melee players, it would have been appreciated getting some feedback from the players before doing it.  I know this goes against as lot of the development process.  It could though have saved having to redo, something that has been redone.


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Posted (edited)

I honestly don't have a problem with the ranged hitboxes.

I honestly do have a problem with 3m melee.

I think it was in a good spot before, just like ranged, be reasonably close to your target and aiming at it and you're guaranteed a hit.

Was it skill intensive to land a hit? No.

Does that matter? Also no.

Rotation/buff/debuff stuff as well as basic teamfight tactics, maneuvering, etc. already builds a complex enough basic framework for the combat system that it doesn't also need pinpoint melee/ranged skillshots.

I'm against overly skillshotting the combat (melee or ranged) in crowfall for the same reason I'm against random crits or complex buff/debuff mechanics in shooters. At a certain point your combat system becomes so complex it feels like a chore to play. In my opinion the primary advantage of an MMO action combat system isn't thats harder to play because you have to aim at stuff. Its that its easier and more intuitive to play because its built around not having to use three to five extra keybinds to control target selection. You point at a thing and press a button and that's the thing you hit or heal.

IMO that's the entire point of MMO action combat, to make it easier to focus on the depth of the damage, resource, and positioning mechanisms, not to make it "more skill based" and thus raise the skill floor so more people can be engaging in combat on the level of "how do I use my build in this situation" moreso than "can I select targets fast enough"

Adjust the ranged damage coefficients but leave the aim alone it should be just plain harder to pull the same reliable damage with ranged attacks, but not because its harder to aim. Developers have been successfully balancing ranged and melee attackers in MMOs for a while now, even when those combat system use straight up lock on targeting.

Revert melee back to 5m so people aren't pixel hunting and desyncing all over the place.

Then balance the combat around what its good at, basic range, positioning, hit rolls, damage types, and facing.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Posted (edited)

Oh you haven't played Druid yet if you think Cleric is broken :P

13 hours ago, MrErad said:

Actually that makes no sense. I'm assuming they didnt want melee having 5m range not sure where that came about from since I've been following the forums even with the break I took from CF.   Its already shown that the desync "lag" is already a big problem but if its for "balance" purposes then its no more acceptable than this.
 


 

Edited by Dampoe

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has nothing to do with cleric. Hell downing a target who is low becomes problematic if the hit box is that big in any engagement. Just step into the barn sized area and absorb the hits for your buddy or npc aggros you and starts getting in your way. WIth a hitbox that big you cant really aim around it.

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4 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

I just personally think it's been rolled out incorrectly.

First solve the desync.
Then start to slowly take away the range for melee.
-NOT- visa versa
...

 

I agree with this. This is not the first time they go through this dance. Melee used to be this tight before,  people complained, they made it super wide, apparently people complained again, now it's back to being tight (and suffering from the usual performance issues). 

There needs to be a good balance between melee and ranged, that is all. Melee should be able to catch ranged with enough gap closers and CC while ranged should be able to kite more or less effectively (but not from 60m away, there should be dmg drop off from distance).

 

4 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I think it was in a good spot before, just like ranged, be reasonably close to your target and aiming at it and you're guaranteed a hit.

Was it skill intensive to land a hit? No.

Does that matter? Also no.

Rotation/buff/debuff stuff as well as basic teamfight tactics, maneuvering, etc. already builds a complex enough basic framework for the combat system that it doesn't also need pinpoint melee/ranged skillshots.

Except it does matter. It completely changes the game and how it feels to play it.  Many players want the game to be played at a mechanical level as well, not only a build/theorycrafting/rotation level. There's a number of factors at play here culminating in the boring spammy clustercustard combat CF has atm, specially in "large" scale engagements, and lack of skill shots or tighter mechanical engagement is one of those factors. 


 

 

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Melee should have an easier time hitting than range-once on a target-due to the inherit advantage range has. However I feel like this argument is as old as gaming itself.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rikutatis said:

Except it does matter. It completely changes the game and how it feels to play it.  Many players want the game to be played at a mechanical level as well, not only a build/theorycrafting/rotation level. There's a number of factors at play here culminating in the boring spammy clustercustard combat CF has atm, specially in "large" scale engagements, and lack of skill shots or tighter mechanical engagement is one of those factors. 

That's just it.

What you're asking for here is a completely different game that doesn't make sense from the groundline of crowfall's gear and skill systems and that's my entire point.

You're asking for a game that does not support any of crowfall's crafting, economic, or campaign systems.

Either you have a lower skill floor in terms of mechanical skill, or a lower skill floor in ability selection and timing. When you do both you're creating a combat system that is a chore to play no matter who you are. You're creating a game that has too many build vs build advantages for people that want to play a mechanics focused system ("This is BS, they aren't winning its just gear winning") or you're creating a game that requires too much mechanical skill for people that want to play a build focused system. ("This is BS, my gear doesn't matter because I can't circlestrafe and pixel hunt at 400MPH")

There's a reason MOBAs typically restrict the number of players to 5 per team, abilities to 4 (on average), and don't have complex stat sheets for heroes, typically limiting stats to speed, armor, HP, and two to four damage stats. That reason is that their primary method of balance is mechanical. Those games are about skillshots and positioning and builds are minor flavor to keep them from getting stale. Those games are about muscle memory and tight execution of simple combat strategies.

There's a reason MMOs don't typically require first person shooter levels of precision. Its because they're balanced around ability timing and selection and employ a large numbers of variables and abilities to make those systems interesting. Those games are about situational awareness, exploitation of vulnerabilities, and simple to perform execution of complex strategies.

Crowfall is and will remain the second type of system. Its a system designed around ability selection and timing with some aiming. It isn't a system built around aiming with some ability selection and timing. It must remain so for the rest of its design for the vessels, training, economy, drops, etc. to matter.

On the scale of an MMO it is vital that your skill floor is relatively high simply because the number of people that need to present a competitive challenge to each other is so high. The timing/build focus system does this much more efficiently than the mechanics focused system simply because mastry of a builds/timing focused system is less dependant on twitch reflexes and hand eye coordination that have build in physiological limits based upon who is sitting behind the keyboard.

If your action combat MMO is built in such a way that a team of 5 esports pros can walk in the door and start downing gangs of 20 people just on virtue of twitch reflexes, you've built a great action game, but you've built a terrible PvP MMO. The vast majority of that player base will literally never have the requisite innate reflexes and hand eye coordination of the top echelon of players.

That's a type of combat that works extremely well at lower player counts because you can just separate the scrubs from the pros in different matches and everyone can have fun. Its a type of combat that doesn't work well in MMOs because you can't. You expect 1000 or more players to be on a server fighting each other. You are not going to fill the server with 1000 esports pros. That alone requires a farily high skill floor to be fun for anyone and prevent your best performing players from becoming bored due to lack of competition and your worst performing players quitting the game due to encountering players for which there is literally no answer because there is an upper neurological limit to how good a person can actually get through practice from a twitch gaming skills perspective.

Making the targeting requirements super tight won't make the combat more interesting for everyone. It'll make the combat more interesting for a minority group of players and frustrating for the rest because they have to share space with them and literally neurologically incapable of competing with them. When you need all of the above to coexist and present a competitive challenge for each other on the same server as you do in a PvP MMO you sabotage the goal of the entire production by making aiming requirements so precise. You can't have a game about mass combat in which the "mass" part can be countered simply by being better at moving your mouse and hitting WASD. You can't have a game centered around a player economy and crafting in which the player economy and crafting can be circumvented simply by being better at moving your mouse and hitting WASD.

You can't design a combat system for 5v5 hour long esports matches and expect it to work for 1000vs1000 campaigns that last three months.

Edited by PopeUrban

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24 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

...

You are only focusing on the two extremes of this discussion, pro esports pixel pinpoint accuracy and high floor low ceiling spam combat. There's plenty of action combat MMOs out there that managed to do a much better balance act between these two extremes and put all due importance on both sides of the coin. ESO for example has very complex build, ability and gear systems and its action combat is fairly generous in terms of hitbox and so on, but it still has considerable more mechanical skill involved (at least it used to before proc sets and champion points, haven't followed it in years). BDO is the same with a more fighting combo style. More recently Conqueror's Blade with root motion combat and troop management. The latter two are sandbox MMOs as well. The games exist and are out there, I wasn't asking for any sort of esport extreme. 


 

 

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4 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

 BDO is the same with a more fighting combo style. More recently Conqueror's Blade with root motion combat and troop management. The latter two are sandbox MMOs as well. The games exist and are out there, I wasn't asking for any sort of esport extreme. 

BDO is nothing like an esport. The combat there has always been 1 shot mechanics where gear and rng reigned supreme. What little PvP left in that game is nothing more then ganking players in order to grind the PvE mobs that player was grinding.  

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12 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Snip

Tera, certainly in its hayday, had bar none the best damn PvP MMO combat experience of any MMO ever.  With every class more or less being very learnable but having high skill ceilings, having a solid balance between precision and leniency for landing hits, relying on personal skill and tactical play both, along with a lot of mechanical knowledge required to truly master a class, you had plenty of average and above average players that could still reasonably compete.  I'm rather upset they went a more ESO style combat system as opposed to Tera.  The current system has very little consistent use of anything other than left click because other skills are mostly for their buff/debuff effects than damage in the majority of cases.  The current system doesn't offer much in the way of personal skill compared to Tera.  Gear almost matters more in this game than Tera, especially when you consider certain things like range distance bonus, lack of iframes, and the very left click heavy gameplay restricting opportunity for personal skill to shine.  They could quite reasonably bring in a tighter, more tactful, yet also more fluid system of combat.  Right now, it feels like the game plays the way Wildstar should have from the beginning with only slightly less of a sensation of ice skating around the battlefield.  They could have and should have done more.

With that said, the current iteration is nowhere near where it should be even if they stick to this style until release.  Ranged accuracy is TOO generous, while melee is too restrictive and is easily punished just by virtue of lack of body collision let alone how much movement there is that translates into just missing because they're some smidge off center.  It's just clunk as hell right now.  Just glad this is pre alpha since they have real opportunities to fix all this once they finally finish Frostweaver, make some balance passes, and revamp disciplines.

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10 hours ago, Deioth said:

 I'm rather upset they went a more ESO style combat system as opposed to Tera. 

They tried, way back in the beginning. They didn't manage to make it work. I'm not sure if it was due to Unity's limitations, or just their lack of experience with action combat. Their original goal was root motion combat with weighty animations and directional movement based on your inputs and abilities fired. Kinda like TERA or most asian action combat systems really. The truth is that I have yet to see a western developer make this kind of combat work. It feels like asian developers are light years ahead of the west when it comes to action combat. Check out Conqueror's Blade for a root motion combat done really well, in the same vein CF tried to make and failed. 

 

18 hours ago, mystafyi said:

BDO is nothing like an esport. The combat there has always been 1 shot mechanics where gear and rng reigned supreme. What little PvP left in that game is nothing more then ganking players in order to grind the PvE mobs that player was grinding.  

I never said BDO was like an esport, I did say BDO had more mechanical engagement than CF. You're right about the nolife endless gear grind ofc, it was a korean grind trap from the start, I just played it at the very beginning before it got completely out of hand. Just BDO's combat system by itself, if you remove the ridiculous RNG gear grind trap, is pretty cool. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a really well designed combat system. It was just spoiled by the dumb gear RNG. 


 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Deioth said:

Tera, certainly in its hayday, had bar none the best damn PvP MMO combat experience of any MMO ever.  With every class more or less being very learnable but having high skill ceilings, having a solid balance between precision and leniency for landing hits, relying on personal skill and tactical play both, along with a lot of mechanical knowledge required to truly master a class, you had plenty of average and above average players that could still reasonably compete.  I'm rather upset they went a more ESO style combat system as opposed to Tera.  The current system has very little consistent use of anything other than left click because other skills are mostly for their buff/debuff effects than damage in the majority of cases.  The current system doesn't offer much in the way of personal skill compared to Tera.  Gear almost matters more in this game than Tera, especially when you consider certain things like range distance bonus, lack of iframes, and the very left click heavy gameplay restricting opportunity for personal skill to shine.  They could quite reasonably bring in a tighter, more tactful, yet also more fluid system of combat.  Right now, it feels like the game plays the way Wildstar should have from the beginning with only slightly less of a sensation of ice skating around the battlefield.  They could have and should have done more.

With that said, the current iteration is nowhere near where it should be even if they stick to this style until release.  Ranged accuracy is TOO generous, while melee is too restrictive and is easily punished just by virtue of lack of body collision let alone how much movement there is that translates into just missing because they're some smidge off center.  It's just clunk as hell right now.  Just glad this is pre alpha since they have real opportunities to fix all this once they finally finish Frostweaver, make some balance passes, and revamp disciplines.

In my personal opinion, like BDO, or Guild Wars 2, Tera had really fun combat, but that fun didn't translate very well to a good PvP experience. You obviously fell in love with it, but when "Good PvP games" comes up Tera is a name I have literally never heard until now. That doesn't mean my opinion is right and yours is wrong or anything of course but stepping outside my subjective opinion the names I often hear when "Good PvP MMO" is mentioned are names like UO, Warhammer, GW1, EVE, and Occasionally a shoutout to WoW (with arguments about exactly what expansion WoW pvp fell apart) and other tab target status watching type systems.

My theory about this comes down to accessibility. All of the above games have PvP which requires very little mechanical dexterity, which makes them easier to approach for the newcomer. All of the above games also have a pretty complex skill ceiling that is largely derived from a deep knowledge of the game's systems and counterplays moreso than the difficulty of executing move combos.

My theory here is those systems are popular because far more people can develop and successfully employ a mental playbook of plays and counterplays than there are people that can successfully employ a mental playbook of plays and counterplays while executing a mechanically challenging system of movement and skill combinations. My theory here is that these systems are accessible without also being dumbed down, in a way that a more mechanically challenging system is less accessible and by necessity dumbed down a bit because you can only expect your user to track but so many pieces of data in their head while managing a more demanding action combat system.

Lets be clear here. I'm not saying CF has it right yet.

I'm also not saying that systems like TERA or BDO or whatever are WRONG systems. I simply don't think they're the right kind of system for a game like crowfall, which is built entirely around the concept that mass battles are effectively mandatory activities, and as such are far more sensitive to ensuring that large forces rather than individual players are competitive.

They've openly said pretty much the entirety of the skill system is due for a major balance pass after frostweaver as most of it is just first pass design at this point.

What I'm saying is the idea that ranged attacks should be somehow more skill intensive to land than melee attacks rubs me the wrong way. Given the same set of reflexes I should have roughly as easy a time aiming a ranged attack at my max range as I would have aiming a melee attack. This by default means my practical hitbox for a target at max range should be as big as the practical hitbox of a target at melee range, which is to say, far larger than the actual hitbox of the model. Otherwise you've built a system in which ranged HAS to be significantly better to pay off the greater challenge in simply hitting the target, or you've built a system in which ranged is a joke because its harder to use for the same utility and damage output as melee.

If you spike damage or utility to pay off the harder aiming you end up back at square one. Now your most dexterous players are breaking the balance of your game just by being better at mouse and wasd and punching significantly above their weight compared to your average player. Then you balance to bring those guys down to a reasonable level and now nobody but those guys wants to play ranged because its significantly worse than melee for your average dude.

"How good is good" is a really huge problem for a PvP MMO. Its one people don't like to hear because we all like to fantasize about might making right and better players winning and all of those things are true, but there it is. Everybody wants to be the guy that wins based on "skills" but nobody wants to be the guy that loses based on other people's "skills"

So what's the role of "skill" and what does that mean? How much "skill" do you require and how much "skill" can you benefit from to eke out an edge? How does that compete with the game's other systems of damage typing, crafting, etc. and are these things compatible?

Is "skill" at that kind of an individual level even important to the design, or is the design more about the successful deployment of multiple players in strategically superior patterns like EVE?

Is "skill" defined solely by "moved the mouse and hit WASD"?

How many people can truly grow the requisite "skill" over months or years in a way that makes continuing to play compelling?

These are the questions I'm asking in this conversation. Not "is the game hard enough" because the game's difficulty is irrelevant. It's a PvP game. the game is as hard as other people make it. The relevant question is "how much is the game fighting me" and in my opinion the answer to that should be "as little as possible"

Making controls harder to use for the sake of the controls being harder to use just doesn't seem like fun to me. It seems like added frustration so people can stroke their e-peen and tell other people to get good in stead of actually building a game that is designed to make people WANT to get good. It seems like a way to drive off the PvP virgins a game like Crowfall is trying to attract and retain with its multiple levels of PvP difficulty and risk.

My solution to this is to significantly open up melee and leave ranged alone, then worry about rebalancing around what abilities do, how much they cost, what their cooldowns are, whether or not retailiate is cancer, etc. to build a system that uses the lack of tab targeting as a means of accessibility and immersion rather than a barrier to playing the game, and in doing so capture that "Easy to pick up and hard to master" quality that seems to define what people agree on as a good PvP MMO.

Edited by PopeUrban

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32 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

They tried, way back in the beginning. They didn't manage to make it work. I'm not sure if it was due to Unity's limitations, or just their lack of experience with action combat. Their original goal was root motion combat with weighty animations and directional movement based on your inputs and abilities fired. Kinda like TERA or most asian action combat systems really. The truth is that I have yet to see a western developer make this kind of combat work. It feels like asian developers are light years ahead of the west when it comes to action combat. Check out Conqueror's Blade for a root motion combat done really well, in the same vein CF tried to make and failed.

They didn't work at it as long as they should have.  While I didn't get a chance to play the greybox combat test, from what I've heard the issues seem to be that it was just too bare bones to flow the way something like Tera does.  Animation lock would last too long, there wasn't enough in place to combo or break a lock, and it lacked a sense of momentum resulting in a very static feel.  Now, it's just ESO all over again, a floaty and kind of unfulfilling combat because it lacks a sense of skilled play.

 

31 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Snip

Tera had a good PVP combat experience.  It didn't necessarily mean it was a PVP MMO.  They kept trying to add good systems but the executions were always a little off and with the TTK in that game being what it was if you lacked the gear to take down your target quickly they'd usually get healed back to full in an instant.  Good, competent skill-based play meant you could overcome that or manage around it in a lot of ways depending on the situation.  Crowfall is seriously lacking in that respect right now.  A geared archer 3 shot me in mail with just left click.  Meanwhile, my neckbreaker crits him for 800.  At least with skilled play in Tera I could juke and dodge his attacks, force a mistake, land a good combo, and play it careful and safe until I beat him.  It's fine if Crowfall isn't trying to quite go that heavy (though it still worked quite well in Tera's large scale PVP) especially since they clearly want a longer TTK compared to most MMOs, but it's kind of a mess right now.

Improving skill based play between ranged and melee would not be a bad thing.  Tera's ranged combat, using Archers as a base line example, was generous without feeling inaccurate.  Ranged in Crowfall right now is so generous you hardly need to aim.  I'd like for them to, now that many systems are in place, try revisiting it all and experiment again with animation lock mechanics but I doubt they will this late into the development.  They needed to keep iterating from the beginning because by now they could have had an incredible facsimile to Tera-style action combat.  There is a lot they could still try, though, and really make it work.  At the very least, if they fix the current issues plaguing melee (probably the easiest and most effective fix being to just make most or all melee attacks cleave up to so many targets (basically giving everything Spirit Whip by default) with a wider cone of effect to account for off-center due to the game's movement and restrictive "moment of impact" abilities have) we can then reassess and see how it feels, but I really wish there was a bit more potential for personal impact since the current system of hit detection is just wonky and inaccurate across the board.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Deioth said:

They didn't work at it as long as they should have.  While I didn't get a chance to play the greybox combat test, from what I've heard the issues seem to be that it was just too bare bones to flow the way something like Tera does.  Animation lock would last too long, there wasn't enough in place to combo or break a lock, and it lacked a sense of momentum resulting in a very static feel.  Now, it's just ESO all over again, a floaty and kind of unfulfilling combat because it lacks a sense of skilled play.

 

Tera had a good PVP combat experience.  It didn't necessarily mean it was a PVP MMO.  They kept trying to add good systems but the executions were always a little off and with the TTK in that game being what it was if you lacked the gear to take down your target quickly they'd usually get healed back to full in an instant.  Good, competent skill-based play meant you could overcome that or manage around it in a lot of ways depending on the situation.  Crowfall is seriously lacking in that respect right now.  A geared archer 3 shot me in mail with just left click.  Meanwhile, my neckbreaker crits him for 800.  At least with skilled play in Tera I could juke and dodge his attacks, force a mistake, land a good combo, and play it careful and safe until I beat him.  It's fine if Crowfall isn't trying to quite go that heavy (though it still worked quite well in Tera's large scale PVP) especially since they clearly want a longer TTK compared to most MMOs, but it's kind of a mess right now.

Improving skill based play between ranged and melee would not be a bad thing.  Tera's ranged combat, using Archers as a base line example, was generous without feeling inaccurate.  Ranged in Crowfall right now is so generous you hardly need to aim.  I'd like for them to, now that many systems are in place, try revisiting it all and experiment again with animation lock mechanics but I doubt they will this late into the development.  They needed to keep iterating from the beginning because by now they could have had an incredible facsimile to Tera-style action combat.  There is a lot they could still try, though, and really make it work.  At the very least, if they fix the current issues plaguing melee (probably the easiest and most effective fix being to just make most or all melee attacks cleave up to so many targets (basically giving everything Spirit Whip by default) with a wider cone of effect to account for off-center due to the game's movement and restrictive "moment of impact" abilities have) we can then reassess and see how it feels, but I really wish there was a bit more potential for personal impact since the current system of hit detection is just wonky and inaccurate across the board.

Or, and here me out, you could understand that they aren’t going for a game where PvP skill trumps all.  This is a game where logistics, guild management, dedicated crafters, political savvy and dedicated neckbeards who will farm all day are just as important as personal skill.  This isn’t Rambo, you’re not John Wick and you’re not some Mandalorian sex god; being good is irrelevant.  This game is more about group conflict than any MOBA ADC carrying their team to a victory.  If I can’t defeat my enemies through force then I have politics, sabotage or cunning.  I also have to accept I might not be able to defeat every enemy but at that point I can harass using irregular forces while I find allies and do my best to delay my defeat.  Shadowbane wasn’t about my personal skill, why would CF (both made by the same guy and a huge part of CF comes SB) be any different?  It’s a throne war simulator.  Being King isn’t about having the best KDA, it’s about leading and ruling over the serfs, peasants, levies, craftsman, skilled laborers, servants, advisors, soldiers, engineers, plotters and learning to compromise with your eventual allies.  

I love these posts.  They appear every few months.  Nothing personal about it but I don’t think you understand the games the owner has made or where so much of CF came from.  

TLDR; stop thinking like a menial villein who just drank their pre-workout.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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