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Crowfall unveils 'The Infected' - Official discussion thread

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

You cant honestly think a handful of players ruined this game. ACE made this mess, they listened to all the wrong feedback for so long now.

What wrong feedback? Bc the dev is us ripping them too.  I'm actually interested in what feedback you think the dev partners have given that they even follow?  Very very few ideas even get responses and most of it is us complaining, having deep esoteric conversations about complex systems that will never happen(pope, krakken and me) and Soulreaver uses it as a bug reports forums so that they see it without all of the spam. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

What wrong feedback? Bc the dev is us ripping them too.  I'm actually interested in what feedback you think the dev partners have given that they even follow?  Very very few ideas even get responses and most of it is us complaining, having deep esoteric conversations about complex systems that will never happen(pope, krakken and me) and Soulreaver uses it as a bug reports forums so that they see it without all of the spam. 

Well someone is behind all these bad changes ACE keeps piling on. I was simply giving them the benefit of doubt, otherwise there is only 2 options. one, they are just incompetent or two, they are have changed direction inhouse and are now using crowfall as a tool in order to develop their artisan engine

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1 minute ago, mystafyi said:

Well someone is behind all these bad changes ACE keeps piling on. I was simply giving them the benefit of doubt, otherwise there is only 2 options. one, they are just incompetent or two, they are have changed direction inhouse and are now using crowfall as a tool in order to develop their artisan engine

It’s very complicated and deserves more nuance than they are incompetent.  I think at its core CF is trying to be too many games, appeal to too many genres and doesn’t clearly identify itself.  Is it a moba heavy mmo? No.  Is it a PvP mmo?  No.  Is it a PvP survival game?  No.  Is it a group PvP siege game?  Sometimes but then part of the pop doesn’t want that.  Is it a solo gank/harvest simulator?  Some of the time yea but that’s not what it was marketed as, what it claims to be and where it comes from so it’s confusing.  

I want to trust the dev team but I struggle with seeing some of the influences of the game devs that directly clashes with what I expected (a spiritual successor to Shadowbane with deep character creation, player driven politics and player driven conflict being the major driver for the game) and what I am getting isn’t that.  I’m getting a game with overwhelmingly complicated crafting and harvesting systems that detract from the PvP (and they’ve toned it down as the community almost universally agrees it’s too much).  I’m getting a game with next to zero customization as there are very clear choices as to what’s best.  When I do have choices they are normally illusions of choice: letting me take disciplines to give me powers that I can’t slot because each there’s a finite amount of bar space and some classes have some 100% have to take abilities.  The other illusion of choice is the vastly unbalanced discipline choices but I understand that should go away with balance passes but after years of many remaining the same I’m not exactly expecting it tomorrow.  The passive training is meaningless  for combat chars and then literally the most important thing on a harvesting/crafting char.  

I’ll make another post tomorrow, I’m getting my thoughts more together.  I’ll tag you.  These long winded, ivory tower rants are what the dev boards typically are.  There’s a few legitimate conversations that have actually benefited the community but mostly it’s the same 10 people showing off our lexicons.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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5 hours ago, mandalore said:

40 people have crushed the population.  There 50k backs and 40 people killed it?

No, most of the backers only login briefly to check out major patches or are waiting on beta/launch - the majority don't even care who is trying to win prealpha :P  

All of these issues of hardcore vs casual are 20 years old though and happen in all open-world pvp games. ACE obviously recognizes the potential problem (hi Uncle Bob from KS video!) and is at least being proactive about designing tools and rulesets they can use to help solve the problem.


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36 minutes ago, miraluna said:

No, most of the backers only login briefly to check out major patches or are waiting on beta/launch - the majority don't even care who is trying to win prealpha :P  

All of these issues of hardcore vs casual are 20 years old though and happen in all open-world pvp games. ACE obviously recognizes the potential problem (hi Uncle Bob from KS video!) and is at least being proactive about designing tools and rulesets they can use to help solve the problem.

There is a stark difference in the acknowledgment that there is indeed the possibility of Uncle Bob and the implementation of meaningful counters to Uncle Bob.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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10 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:
  1. Let them surrender, leave, and move on.

This can't be said enough.

I know it's just pre-alpha (4+ years later) but this needs to happen at some point. Right now it doesn't serve much purpose with ~2 campaigns going and a handful of people, but I've played games/genres with one game having concede and another without and it makes a huge difference. Accepting defeat and be more healthy and morale boosting then hanging on pointlessly until the sad end. It's trickier when it isn't a 1v1 or small team setup, but guilds/factions need a way to end things.

One huge concern I have is victory conditions. So far we've only seen point accumulation and timed ends. There hasn't been anything (that I remember) that is actually player controlled and determined that would allow us to win/lose at our speed. Really hope they come up with win conditions that when met are where it ends. They aren't going to find enough masochists to stick it out through weeks/months of Winter.

This is one of several areas that the overall theme and lore of Crowfall make zero sense to me. Why bother with such things if the game play has little to do with it and it's just highly gamey dev controlled mechanics?

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1 hour ago, miraluna said:

No, most of the backers only login briefly to check out major patches or are waiting on beta/launch - the majority don't even care who is trying to win prealpha :P  

All of these issues of hardcore vs casual are 20 years old though and happen in all open-world pvp games. ACE obviously recognizes the potential problem (hi Uncle Bob from KS video!) and is at least being proactive about designing tools and rulesets they can use to help solve the problem.

Campaigns ending does little to thwart Uncle Bob and so far that seems to be all ACE has come up with compared to all that they've designed that benefit Bob one way or another, some more then what other games do. To make it such a hyped up selling point to their vision and then basically do nothing to support it is a bit odd.

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11 hours ago, mandalore said:

Wouldn’t you think after losing 9+ fights that maybe you’re doing it wrong?  I don’t mean your guild I mean anybody.  If I’m playing league and I lose 9 straight games I have to acknowledge that some of that is on me and I need to change something.  If guilds are struggling with 20 man guilds in faction it’s going to suck with 50 man guilds in dregs.  

I empathize with it not being fun.   It hasn’t been fun for me for a while Bc of the forced faction play.  

Do you think this game is going to work for small guilds?  Shadowbane def didn’t work for them.  Will CF? 

Factions seem like a go to for smaller guilds that can't compete with larger or simply better guilds in Dregs. Not that smaller, organized, highly skilled guilds couldn't also do well in Dregs depending on what it is required to win. Much comes down to the design or lack of it. If the design only rewards 200+ guilds then 20-50 member guilds aren't going to have a chance.

I don't believe anyone is doing anything "wrong" on the player side currently besides believing they are logging into a game ready for playing.

It is very obvious that certain guilds have better players and or guild structure that there isn't much that will change as is. Get Gud unfortunately doesn't come in a pill form.

Logging in with the belief that things will change isn't rational, but logging in to have a good time with what is available is.

9 hours ago, mandalore said:

I don't think these are as viable of solutions as you do.  Gracen, WeaponsX and the rest of the 10th (they go by UxA now) all played SB and small guilds didn't really have a place in the ecosystem of guilds.  They either hide on the sidelines, got absorbed or got smashed and quit: I see nothing different that can prevent that.

CF is a game struggling to not be about Uncle Bob but almost every mechanic it has supports it. 

Simply having a larger population and Campaigns with clearly defined requirements/restrictions might be enough to keep people happy and coming back. If I join a Blue Vessel/Blue Gear Campaign, X imports, X tier resources, X Win conditions then I know I'm going up against others with similar stats and expectations from the Campaign.

Faction and Dregs setups might work differently, but there are ways to make a "ranking" system without actually needing to measure a hundred different metrics overtime. Although take my example and then add in a Guild needs to have won 1 Green Campaigns to enter the Blue Campaign for some metric use. That's not terribly hard to do. However, getting X number of guilds with 1 victory to all join the same campaign might be tricky, but this is just a make believe example.

If the game is popular enough then having a restricted Campaign like my example and anything goes options would hopefully provide enough of a variety for players. Trick is making the game appealing enough to bring in enough players to then make multiple Campaigns a possibility.

Their hidden love of Uncle Bob is just one of many choices that seem to go against the idea of making this a popular game that people actually want to play long term.

7 hours ago, mandalore said:

The fact that 2 20 man guilds have crushed the population so completely that people have left the prealpha is astounding to me.  40 people have crushed the population.  There 50k backs and 40 people killed it?  That’s the weakest community in any format I’ve ever heard of.  

Well the population is what ~200? 40 is a decent chunk of that :)

I don't see it so much that they've crushed the population but their choices along with ACE's design/testing choices have made for a less then exciting experience for some. 

Can easily see people reading about the Trials, the PVP, War Stories and other fluff marketing, getting in and expecting a fun experience then seeing a scoreboard with one team having double or more points to be a bit defeating.

Fact that so few bother to show up despite how ACE tries to present things says something about what they've spent doing the last few years as well. Obviously many are waiting for beta/launch, but I'm in or have been in other early access games over the last couple years that do quite a bit better population wise. 24/7 testing disguised as playing a game with winners/losers and prizes is maybe not the best way to go about it.

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6 minutes ago, APE said:

24/7 testing disguised as playing a game with winners/losers and prizes is maybe not the best way to go about it.

O I agree.  It’s one of their worst decisions imo.  That’s just now how testing should be done imo. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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8 hours ago, mandalore said:

It’s very complicated and deserves more nuance than they are incompetent.  I think at its core CF is trying to be too many games, appeal to too many genres and doesn’t clearly identify itself.  Is it a moba heavy mmo? No.  Is it a PvP mmo?  No.  Is it a PvP survival game?  No.  Is it a group PvP siege game?  Sometimes but then part of the pop doesn’t want that.  Is it a solo gank/harvest simulator?  Some of the time yea but that’s not what it was marketed as, what it claims to be and where it comes from so it’s confusing.  

I agree. Their foray into Themepark like PvE mechanics is what concerns me the most this past year. Now we have a bunch of systems and game mechanics tossed into a pile with little synergy or design flow. 

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I think the infected game mode is a very nice addition. If they cut down to r6 nodes in GR we would start to see those stair steps they have planned.   

 The fatalism of some of the comments on here is laughable.  So much of this game is not in yet, it's in pre alpha.  No it's not balanced, no key features aren't in, yes much of it is not functioning properly. That's a stage in the development process, that since you are playing you must want to be a part of?  Yet you get on forums cursing the Devs and crying to your mommies because you just can't win no matter how hard you try!! You poor poor little thing.   Life's not fair.  

  Now the argument the devs are pulling themselves in too many directions has merit. They are trying to combine so many different aspects from different games.  In 2015 when they did the Kickstarter that is what I expected. I expected them to be the most ambitious MMO of the decade.  To try to fit 50 gallons in a slurpee cup.  Now to the shadowbane players much of this content is just a waste of time from what is important to them. However, a truly grandMMO can facilitate many different types of players and playstyles that gives it that feeling of a world in and of itself.  

  If you think you can make a better game than Ace, crawl outta your mom's basement and get to work I'd love to play it!!  You probably can't though, so I'm going to keep playing what I think is shaping up to be a phenomenal game.


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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6 hours ago, ConstantineX said:

I think the infected game mode is a very nice addition. If they cut down to r6 nodes in GR we would start to see those stair steps they have planned.   

 The fatalism of some of the comments on here is laughable.  So much of this game is not in yet, it's in pre alpha.  No it's not balanced, no key features aren't in, yes much of it is not functioning properly. That's a stage in the development process, that since you are playing you must want to be a part of?  Yet you get on forums cursing the Devs and crying to your mommies because you just can't win no matter how hard you try!! You poor poor little thing.   Life's not fair.  

  Now the argument the devs are pulling themselves in too many directions has merit. They are trying to combine so many different aspects from different games.  In 2015 when they did the Kickstarter that is what I expected. I expected them to be the most ambitious MMO of the decade.  To try to fit 50 gallons in a slurpee cup.  Now to the shadowbane players much of this content is just a waste of time from what is important to them. However, a truly grandMMO can facilitate many different types of players and playstyles that gives it that feeling of a world in and of itself.  

  If you think you can make a better game than Ace, crawl outta your mom's basement and get to work I'd love to play it!!  You probably can't though, so I'm going to keep playing what I think is shaping up to be a phenomenal game.

At this point I see little about Crowfall that is very ambitious or steps too far away from the mold. More of it is a bare minimum MMO design with some nice twists on traditional features, but lack of content and features doesn't make something special. To me it seems like it has a ways to go but between what is in and what they've said is planned, I don't see the game design as a whole really changing or improving greatly to the point is blows enough people away. I've backed other projects and while they too have a long way till release, I have more faith in them breaking away from the norm. Camelot Unchained being one of them has some great ideas that Crowfall isn't going to match.

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3 hours ago, APE said:

At this point I see little about Crowfall that is very ambitious or steps too far away from the mold. More of it is a bare minimum MMO design with some nice twists on traditional features, but lack of content and features doesn't make something special. To me it seems like it has a ways to go but between what is in and what they've said is planned, I don't see the game design as a whole really changing or improving greatly to the point is blows enough people away. I've backed other projects and while they too have a long way till release, I have more faith in them breaking away from the norm. Camelot Unchained being one of them has some great ideas that Crowfall isn't going to match.

I suppose for me it isn't that they are breaking away and doing something new, it is that they are combining some of the best elements of MMOs and introducing a level of strategy play that I personally haven't seen in an MMO. Granted that strategy is all but not there currently. But it has to function like the top of the skyscraper metaphorically. Every shift at the bottom drastically changed the top.  The elements of strategy we are seeing should be looked at as placeholders.  Just taping up the holes to give it the absolute bare minimum functionality while they iron out the core.  


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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40 minutes ago, ConstantineX said:

I suppose for me it isn't that they are breaking away and doing something new, it is that they are combining some of the best elements of MMOs and introducing a level of strategy play that I personally haven't seen in an MMO. Granted that strategy is all but not there currently. But it has to function like the top of the skyscraper metaphorically. Every shift at the bottom drastically changed the top.  The elements of strategy we are seeing should be looked at as placeholders.  Just taping up the holes to give it the absolute bare minimum functionality while they iron out the core.  

I hope there is a lot of strategy involved but so far seems to be get the most stats, bring more players, and typical organized play wins over disorganized. I don't see a lot of room for complex strategy play or even politics. Will have to see what the Dregs brings, but with win conditions, it might limit creative strategy vs just gaming the system to victory. Like path of least resistance vs planning out 20 steps a head of enemies.

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32 minutes ago, APE said:

I hope there is a lot of strategy involved but so far seems to be get the most stats, bring more players, and typical organized play wins over disorganized. I don't see a lot of room for complex strategy play or even politics. Will have to see what the Dregs brings, but with win conditions, it might limit creative strategy vs just gaming the system to victory. Like path of least resistance vs planning out 20 steps a head of enemies.

I think you are 100% right and this is the sort of feedback that needs to rise to the top.     The ways Ace can screw the game up haven't to me come to pass yet.   They aren't even focusing on those aspects super hard yet, and I can't blame them because it logistically from a design standpoint doesn't make sense to. It's certainly frustrating while trying to play the game right now. I just like to keep that positive outlook and am hopeful I can convince others to as well. 


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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2 hours ago, ConstantineX said:

I suppose for me it isn't that they are breaking away and doing something new, it is that they are combining some of the best elements of MMOs and introducing a level of strategy play that I personally haven't seen in an MMO. Granted that strategy is all but not there currently. But it has to function like the top of the skyscraper metaphorically. Every shift at the bottom drastically changed the top.  The elements of strategy we are seeing should be looked at as placeholders.  Just taping up the holes to give it the absolute bare minimum functionality while they iron out the core.  

strategy play atm is seen in most other pvp mmos. Hopefully dregs shakes things up. Seems like it will be atlas tho with no pirates/water/pets/ but better combat. 

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34 minutes ago, Marth said:

strategy play atm is seen in most other pvp mmos. Hopefully dregs shakes things up. Seems like it will be atlas tho with no pirates/water/pets/ but better combat. 

True, but I haven't personally played one that really made me engage in that strategy aspect. I either overlooked it entirely or min/maxed it into an afterthought. Full disclosure their exists more MMO's I haven't played than ones I have.    What brought me to crowfall was simple, I believed in Blair and Coleman and their vision. I never played shadowbane so I don't have preconceptions on what this game should be, for better or worse.  Nothing so far has shaken that belief in them.  I believe that they will create a dynamic strategy game that is unlike anything else not because it's conceptually new, but because they can work around all the pitfalls that others have fallen into. 


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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On 9/7/2019 at 8:06 AM, ConstantineX said:

  The fatalism of some of the comments on here is laughable.  So much of this game is not in yet, it's in pre alpha.

 

The only thing significant left to add is Dregs, and that will not change core combat mechanics, only the manner and style of siege gameplay.

The only other main missing mechanic is for crafting, and honestly it won't impact 90% of players.

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:01 PM, mandalore said:

It’s very complicated and deserves more nuance than they are incompetent.  I think at its core CF is trying to be too many games, appeal to too many genres and doesn’t clearly identify itself.  Is it a moba heavy mmo? No.  Is it a PvP mmo?  No.  Is it a PvP survival game?  No.  Is it a group PvP siege game?  Sometimes but then part of the pop doesn’t want that.  Is it a solo gank/harvest simulator?  Some of the time yea but that’s not what it was marketed as, what it claims to be and where it comes from so it’s confusing.  

 

I have to say, I really agree with this. 

First stage focus on development was the sandbox aspects and basic combat in a battle royal style, with piles of time spent developing ore whacking for stuff, and crafting stuff into other stuff next. All the conquest strategy and what I would consider "real" aspects of a game that bills itself as a "Throne War Simulator" are now being added in after those, and in many ways being forced to fit square pegs into round holes. In every RTS game I have ever played, (another type the game is compared to), the less you think about the mechanics of harvesting and instead focus on territory control, the more you can make strategic choices about what harvesting areas to fight over.  From Age of Empires and that third gold pile close to your enemy, to Company of Hero's where simply holding territory was enough to gain resource income.  The less you worry about the details of harvesting, (one unit type, "peasant" for ALL harvesting in AoE at a fixed rate, to simply gaining resources from holding territory),  the more fun the game seem to be. CF is largely the opposite of that.  It's gotten better with PvE places to "farm", but the fact the word "farm", which really isn't fun for most, and is used as a common game play activity seems problematic. 

Personally I think it was done backwards, but crafting and old harvesting models are what developers were the most familiar with, so that's where they started. Cart before the horse if you ask me. I only hope they can find enough corners to shave off the edges of square pegs to fit them into the round holes they are aiming for.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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