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ACE_FancyHats

5.100 LIVE Feedback for 9/4/2019

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5.100 Patch Notes and Known Issues

Please share any feedback you may have from your time playing the game. This includes subjective observations about your gameplay experience. Bugs that you have encountered should be directed to The Bug Thread.

If you encounter disconnection problems, showstopper bugs or any other issues preventing you from entering or playing the game, please send an email as well as your client logs* to support@crowfall.com.

*Client logs can be found here: C:\Users\[username]\AppData\LocalLow\Art+Craft\Crowfall

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Not sure where this feedback goes.

There's a crafting ability gap that's pretty wide between using intermediate tools and rune tools.    The problem arises I think because rune tools starts something like 50k points in and the first rank is 10k a pip for the novice rank.   If those are your only r3+ tools, and they are required for the secondary drops then that needs to be made more accessible.  Granted I know you can jump the shark a little with buffs that make handmade and intermediate tools somewhat viable for up to rank 6 to get a leg up.

There doesn't seem to be a way to improve intermediate tools, or not that I have seen yet.  Basically this leads crafting to be very heavily back-loaded which means that people will either get twinked and geared up by established crafters, or they will be unable to compete until much later.  

This is just an example of how many of the crafting systems are set up.  Buried a little deep in real time advancement.  

Pardon my arrogance but my suggestion would be to make a 'low tier' version of most crafting lines, and make things like tools much more obvious.  The categorization of crafting is strange and arbitrary.

Instead of having armorsmithing be at the end of unrelated crafting, I would suggest a 'general crafting' tree which has lines for things like armorsmithing and specific improvements that unlock armorsmithing that is viable until some rank.  Let these be low-point-investment things that let people play with the systems early and advance into the advanced crafting that is specifically related to that pursuit.

I don't feel like I'm being completely clear here, so please ask if this doesn't make sense.

 

Edited by Nox_Dragon

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Sorry, me again.

The power curve in this game is at least geometric or exponential.  There are a lot of synergies and late-game acquisitions that are in some cases quantitative (such as weapon damage) and some are qualitative (such as powers which change play options).   Ranking up weapons doubles or triples damage output.  Late game abilities add high critical rates and mitigation.

I humbly propose that this is a questionable basis for design of a pvp game.   I get the need for a long tail for power acquisition but as it is right now (granted i am a newb, just observing what I see), the late game is less about healthy advancement and more about being untouchable by people until they've played for months or are in a guild that has crafters who have been playing for months.  

Long story short, a design like that will alienate newcomers and could bore old timers since you'll have a months long barrier of real-time points accrual for people being viable.

I am here to remind you that I think you want your power curve to be logarithmic.  Long term massive investment to giant numbers is a PVE thing.  It doesn't translate well.

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has the passive points changed from 3/10 to 3/5? had that feeling but checking proved me wrong, still feels a bit faster
good start, but not enough yet for a new player joining a guild.

Edited by Surelia

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19 hours ago, Nox_Dragon said:

Not sure where this feedback goes.

There's a crafting ability gap that's pretty wide between using intermediate tools and rune tools.    The problem arises I think because rune tools starts something like 50k points in and the first rank is 10k a pip for the novice rank.   If those are your only r3+ tools, and they are required for the secondary drops then that needs to be made more accessible.  Granted I know you can jump the shark a little with buffs that make handmade and intermediate tools somewhat viable for up to rank 6 to get a leg up.

There doesn't seem to be a way to improve intermediate tools, or not that I have seen yet.  Basically this leads crafting to be very heavily back-loaded which means that people will either get twinked and geared up by established crafters, or they will be unable to compete until much later.  

This is just an example of how many of the crafting systems are set up.  Buried a little deep in real time advancement.  

Pardon my arrogance but my suggestion would be to make a 'low tier' version of most crafting lines, and make things like tools much more obvious.  The categorization of crafting is strange and arbitrary.

Instead of having armorsmithing be at the end of unrelated crafting, I would suggest a 'general crafting' tree which has lines for things like armorsmithing and specific improvements that unlock armorsmithing that is viable until some rank.  Let these be low-point-investment things that let people play with the systems early and advance into the advanced crafting that is specifically related to that pursuit.

I don't feel like I'm being completely clear here, so please ask if this doesn't make sense.

 

 

What you are seeing is the result of ACE tinkering with the crafting system, passive training, and recipe unlocks, multiple times without ever fully removing elements of the previous systems.

Like, these systems have literally been overhauled like 4 times that I can recall.

In general, the reason the system seems fuber is because it is.

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19 hours ago, Nox_Dragon said:

Sorry, me again.

The power curve in this game is at least geometric or exponential.  There are a lot of synergies and late-game acquisitions that are in some cases quantitative (such as weapon damage) and some are qualitative (such as powers which change play options).   Ranking up weapons doubles or triples damage output.  Late game abilities add high critical rates and mitigation.

I humbly propose that this is a questionable basis for design of a pvp game.   I get the need for a long tail for power acquisition but as it is right now (granted i am a newb, just observing what I see), the late game is less about healthy advancement and more about being untouchable by people until they've played for months or are in a guild that has crafters who have been playing for months.  

Long story short, a design like that will alienate newcomers and could bore old timers since you'll have a months long barrier of real-time points accrual for people being viable.

I am here to remind you that I think you want your power curve to be logarithmic.  Long term massive investment to giant numbers is a PVE thing.  It doesn't translate well.

 

One of the primary counters to this is that some completely new to the game can level up a white (free) vessel in an hour, or in 5 minutes if they have friends give them gold/artifacts. They can then immediately equip and wield the most powerful gear in the game. The idea of late game is more a factor of your groups organizational and logistics capability.

If people don't have a group they are largely fukd. According to ACE, that is not a problem in their mind.

 

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I know that the parcels are hard coded, but there should be some changes to those tiers. Perfect time to move an r6-7 zone to infected and let GR be r5. Puts more people in pvp enabled zones and gets rid of the "hiding" nonsense. With the cap being level 15, r8 isn't needed in GR.

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The amount of Crit Chance Duelists have is ridiculously high. With rings, talents, Inconceivable Buffs, and Dexterity I'm currently sitting at 75-80% Crit Chance. The cap however is 50% so 30% of my characters stats are worthless. 

I would suggest allowing the other combat stats be placeable on rings during the Polish phase, and taking some Crit Chance out of the Duelist talent tree.

Edited by Zatch

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14 hours ago, DocTrine said:

They can then immediately equip and wield the most powerful gear in the game.

If only there was full loot. 

7 hours ago, Zatch said:

The amount of Crit Chance Duelists have is ridiculously high. With rings, talents, Inconceivable Buffs, and Dexterity I'm currently sitting at 75-80% Crit Chance. The cap however is 50% so 30% of my characters stats are worthless. 

I would suggest allowing the other combat stats be placeable on rings during the Polish phase, and taking some Crit Chance out of the Duelist talent tree.

The whole stat system is messy to me. Rather have no hard caps or multiple ways to raise the caps. Let us decide what is important and try and break the system. Problem is they've created so many stats yet so few are actually high value to a particular build. Not a ton of give n take or choice from what I see. You can have your cake and eat it too, but you have too much cake to eat and it goes in the trash.

On 9/4/2019 at 12:35 PM, Nox_Dragon said:

I am here to remind you that I think you want your power curve to be logarithmic.  Long term massive investment to giant numbers is a PVE thing.  It doesn't translate well.

It does when they are making a PVE game with the same tired gear/stat grind for the occasional PVP that basically all MMOs have.

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4 hours ago, APE said:

If only there was full loot. 

The whole stat system is messy to me. Rather have no hard caps or multiple ways to raise the caps. Let us decide what is important and try and break the system. Problem is they've created so many stats yet so few are actually high value to a particular build. Not a ton of give n take or choice from what I see. You can have your cake and eat it too, but you have too much cake to eat and it goes in the trash.

It does when they are making a PVE game with the same tired gear/stat grind for the occasional PVP that basically all MMOs have.

Except that's not the case - and hasn't been the case for years.  They are competing with games like ESO where pvp has normalized stats so that everyone can contribute and play.

I'm talking to people who know the game, and don't feel they are viable in pvp without grinding _hard_ for 2 months.  That is not going to work.

 

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6 hours ago, Nox_Dragon said:

Except that's not the case - and hasn't been the case for years.  They are competing with games like ESO where pvp has normalized stats so that everyone can contribute and play.

I'm talking to people who know the game, and don't feel they are viable in pvp without grinding _hard_ for 2 months.  That is not going to work.

 

The thing is they're not competing with that paradigm. They're attempting to emulate a slightly more casual version of the the EVE paradigm, where industry is crucial to the success of individuals as well as large alliances of players. That's a very different kind of game.

They made a deliberate choice as far back as the kickstarter to say "we're making a game where wealth matters, pvp matters, organization matters"

They're not competing with the instant gratification style of PvP you get in a game like ESO or GW2. They're building a game in which players are *required* to interact to succeed on an economic as well as a field combat basis.

They've said multiple times they know they're going to lose some eyeballs with the more work intensive and gear focused design but in their eyes it is crucial to the game they want to build, and that game is a PvP game where harvesting, crafting, and loot are not simply nice to have but necessary to victory. At this point I believe they've pared back the grind as much as they feel like they can without essentially throwing away that design. They've equipped new players with excellent drops to limit the necessity for people to engage with harvesting and crafting when brand new. New players have a powerful incentive to do a thing older players don't want to: farm mobs. Older players don't want to farm mobs. They want to hit nodes, build things, and sell them to you, who farmed gold off of mobs. That's the intended model.

It is hampered right now because they've built a crafting system for scale and cooperation but we're still missing two elements crucial to enabling scale and cooperation: Factories and guild banks. it isn't that people don't have the resources to sell you stuff most of the time. Its that they can't be bothered to click through that many menus to craft enough items to fill a vendor because the system isn't really supposed to require them to do that. Its supposed to ask them to do that once, and then make a blueprint that makes 20 of that item so they can just feed materials to a factory while they go do something else.

It does have some growing pains as a result of its rapid tweaking, and like most of the game its in a pretty unpolished proof of concept state and hasn't completely been redesigned around the newbie focused changes of recipies not being unlocked by training, or dropped gear existing.

Could there be a bit moregraduated progression in crafting trains? Absolutely. Dropped gear really sandbagged low level crafters and they need some of that back. You could do stuff like lower the base values of certain crafts so that they're easier to output at lower levels. For instance what if assembling a helmet was significantly easier than assembling a chestpiece, or what if assembling a recurve bow was significantly easier than assembling the more esoteric options etc.

We've never really had a balance pass for that stuff because until recently it was simply a function of training to unlock the ability to craft the items at all.

Could we use some kind of super - intermediate tool? I honestly don't think we need to. Tools are one of the few things in the economy that actually have a good combination of market velocity and competition. Runemakers make pretty much all of their money selling tools. We don't need to give people an easier way to opt out of that market than they already have. In stead I'd be all for increasing the damage coefficients on intermediate tools based on rarity. This would allow you, if you so choose, to make a poor value crafting decision by sinking higher tier materials in to a higher damage intermediate for another +5 damage per rank. That might be good in a pinch, but you're not going to want to constantly be eating your blue resources to make +20 tools for long and you're going to want those crafted rune tools. Like dropped gear this would remove the barrier to play, but it would retain your desire to seek out a skilled crafter to provide you things. In a larger sense it would also help the market for raw materials since tools use so few per craft. It would be much easier to sell someone a handful of blues that nobody wants to buy right now because they need a large stack to make anything. Newbie harvesters might happily buy that handful of blues if it means getting another pick they can use to help them afford some real tools from a local vendor.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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I hear what you are saying.  It's hard to really test what they intend without a reasonable vendor system in order to actually get what you craft out to the playerbase (what is out there now is not reasonable) and without a way to put in buy orders for mats and offer items for sale, you can't have SWG-style crafting.  Or blueprints.

 

 

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5 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The thing is they're not competing with that paradigm. They're attempting to emulate a slightly more casual version of the the EVE paradigm, where industry is crucial to the success of individuals as well as large alliances of players. That's a very different kind of game.

 

Eve needed a team of economics guys to manage the economy which was crucial to eve and its success. CF has zero ability to have an economy currently. I would have to say they are not currently trying to emulate anything close to eve anymore. I would even be able to argue they are trying to emulate a themepark PvX game like black desert online, albeit without the P2W.

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20 hours ago, Nox_Dragon said:

Except that's not the case - and hasn't been the case for years.  They are competing with games like ESO where pvp has normalized stats so that everyone can contribute and play.

I'm talking to people who know the game, and don't feel they are viable in pvp without grinding _hard_ for 2 months.  That is not going to work.

What is someone grinding "hard" for two months in Crowfall? Unless you are referring to ESO.

Not sure how the two games compare as I haven't spent time in ESO for a long time, but systems seem pretty different despite some superficial similarities. 

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1 hour ago, APE said:

What is someone grinding "hard" for two months in Crowfall? Unless you are referring to ESO.

Not sure how the two games compare as I haven't spent time in ESO for a long time, but systems seem pretty different despite some superficial similarities. 

I mean if an org comes in to crowfall, they are looking at months of time-domain crafting blockage and grinding to get on par with established guilds.

That will appeal to poop sockers, but that's 2% of the population.  The game to me from what I observe with the current craft/interdependence and time-domain advancement setup has an enormous barrier to entry.

The people who have compared it to EVE are off the mark.  In eve if a new player joins your org, you can't give them a battleship.  They get to pilot their frigate, and that's it - and not very well for that matter.  

Anyhow, not saying this game is a piece of poorly made socks or being insulted - just calling out that the barrier to entry is going to winnow out new players and new orgs.

Now all that said, I understand that there may be campaigns that are 'naked start' that have no imports.  Not even characters.  Honestly THAT is the thing that makes this game unique.  The concept of campaigns being able to violate rules or preconceived notions about gameplay.  That has legs.

 

Edited by Nox_Dragon

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one feedback from my son : "elk are not agressive like wolves but their name are red why ? they should have yellow name like pig !" 

I'd never ask why before but now i have to say that i ask myself the same question.

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I have not been playing in some time.  Man how the game has changed. For the better of course. The game play is much smoother compared to before.  I also like the race/class combo decisions and how the zones work.  I feel like I can go back and help friends if I need to.  Crafting in the beginning was a bit overwhelming just due to not knowing how to navigate the menu.  However, I did find the search bar at the top to help.  Anywho, below are my suggestions/ideas for the amount of time I played :)

 

Few things that I noticed:

Druids:Animation Critique 

Their main attack(Left click) doesn't feel right.  In the beginning I though it was a glitch.  But I guess its lightning coming from off screen to the characters hand then to the mob?  I would re look into a less confusing animation.  But that is just IMO (Maybe lightning arc's from the weapon to the casters fingers before releasing instead then from the hand to the target?)

Distance and actions/abilities

I play a large range of classes just to see how the play styles were.  I noticed on classes like the knight,ranger, and cleric.  They have some skills that have a range to them.  The icon's stayed lit and I was totally able to use them.. but nothing would happen sometimes due to not being close enough.  Now if its a "feature" that is totally fine.  But would be nice to know when I might have a successful chain in for my knight rather then just missing and standing in shame.  Or not quite healing that friend who just died to a pig man. :)  (I ended up looking at the tool tip for the action and noticed what the range is.. then use the range indicator on the aim cursor.  However, not everyone will go that length *shrugs*)

Crafting Table Navigation

As mentioned above when I first started to play around with crafting I had a hard time starting.  Wasn't sure where to look for anything.  Finally found the search bar at the top after getting to a crafting table.  A Crafting Guide/Tips on screen may help direct players to these common places.

Crafting favorites: 

While I was crafting I found maybe taking a lot of notes.(in a notebook :))  I need X of this to make this part.. which I need 3 of.. and then 10 of these.. Going between parts on a crafting table had me re-looking up what I looked at 2 seconds ago.  Could there be a pin function on the crafting tables so it sticks it to the top for easy clicking?  Might be a pain to do.  Just an idea.

Edited by Ekoji

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