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Deioth

The New Guild Experience - The Passive and Crafting Problem

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Eldritch has come into 5.100 in a very unique position. All of us are effectively brand new players (despite some having dabbled in previous versions, our passive trees still had very little in them). This gives us a perspective the veteran players and guilds simply don't have and that, we believe, ACE lacks serious data on. As fun as it has been, despite all the trouble and issues (and pushing Order because come at us bro get rekt), we've been privvy to an experience that absolutely MUST be addressed and quickly (i.e., before Beta at latest).

 

It's certainly one thing that we're new. We have a lot to learn. We don't know the best way to build specs or the best disciplines, but we're learning. We don't have the best comps, but that's just how it goes being this new and small. We don't know every in and out of crafting and harvesting, but we're learning. There are a lot of balance issues in general and since we lack any possibility of useful crafted gear any time soon it's also quite telling how all of this together can reveal just how lopsided fights are against well geared guilds and well built players. All of this is something we expected and something we are content to tolerate. What we did not expect and cannot tolerate is what the passive training tree and crafting system generally has resulted in. Granted, in pre-alpha we can't expect an economy (especially on a faction where we've become half the population of as a guild of, what, not even 12 active players?), and maybe on release it won't be quite so bad. However, that does not change the fact that our experience as a new guild has revealed some serious flaws with Crowfall's current design.

 

There are some real problems with how the crafting system currently works in general. There's a pointlessness to crafting anything but blue and better gear. There's also a pointlessness to crafting anything without being near or at max crafting skill and experimentation points. This means we can't feasibly create any kind of intermediate gear to help us compare to those already kitted out in blues and better. But, that isn't the worst of it. The worst of it is the passive training tree itself. This tree alone has already pushed away three or four recruits from even bothering playing the game. One in particular dove in expecting to be able to become a great crafter, right up until she discovered the passive tree and how it works. She hasn't logged in since, neither Crowfall or our guild Discord. Another, realizing just how long it would take to catch up in any meaningful way with gear, has likewise stopped playing after about three days.  All of this, if the systems remain in place as they stand today upon release, will guaranteed push away many players and risk killing this game before it even begins.

 

A catch-up mechanic will not fix this. The problem is inherent in the current design of the crafting system in general requiring the crafting equippables, all the additives, and thousands of Dust to kit out a single person (therefor you screw yourself by crafting without crafting maxed and at least blue mats/additives), as well as the time gating of the passive training itself. I'm sure we all know and understand the purpose and intent of the passive training system, but in its current iteration it simply does not work whatsoever. There is also the issue of veteran players simply being able to fill out everything given enough time, thus killing any real hope of specialization in roles (combat/harvest/craft).

 

After some discussion, we've come up with a few ideas for changes that we feel need to happen.

 

  1. Simply Add Active Training.

 

This will help, but only to a point. This game's very nature doesn't lend itself well to the “craft 1,000 daggers” approach like WoW or Skyrim et al. Still, an active training aspect is absolutely crucial to ensure players don't feel entirely locked behind a time gate, allowing those that play consistently to build up their crow skills. The basic idea is, so long as you're engaged in an activity related to the tree you're training in, you'll gain points faster.

 

  1. Add Skill Levels and Limit How Many Can Be “Mastered”

 

This will help with the specialization, but one issue will be that if new players think they want to go one way and decide they do not like it we'll need some kind of respec mechanic. This would certainly give gold a good sink. You would have so many levels you can train, maybe you can train everything up to “Journeyman” which might be, say, level 3 of 10, which means you'd only be so far into each main tree. Meanwhile, the 10th level of “Master” maybe you can only pick two, and only pick 4 for the maybe 6th level. And yet, a lot of players may like having lots of characters for lots of builds and situations, or like harvesting and crafting a lot and what to engage with all of it. If someone wants to give it the time, they certainly shouldn't feel like they're being pigeonholed. That brings us to idea #3.

 

  1. Give Vessels Their Own Passive Skill Tree

 

Nobody should feel pigeonholed. Plenty of players like having alts. Certainly, no one should be able to master everything, but mixing in the vessel itself into the equation will allow people to stretch out in a few ways, such that only those that truly focus on specializing will completely fill out certain trees. So, you might hold out on Journeyman level--to use the above example--on your Crow, but each Vessel might still be able to choose one Master of their own so long as your Crow hits a certain level of that skill. But, to truly specialize, you would need to Crow and Vessel Master on the same skill tree, or some equivalent.

 

With these ideas together, we think we have a solid recommendation to try testing with:

 

First, determine a maximum pool of Skill Training Points. Players will still have their passive training, but now every single action generates a usable active point. PVP, point capture, harvesting, crafting, war tribes, all of these activities provide a certain amount of actively generated points. Players then allocate as they see fit on the Crow tree or the Vessel tree. Eventually, a player will hit the maximum points on their Crow, at which point a certain amount can still be actively trained on a per vessel basis. So, lets say (for sake of example) you can gain a total of 6 million points on your crow, while a vessel can train up an additional 2 million. This will do a few things: Players can actively play and get better/stronger at whatever they want to simply by playing, players can specialize without being able to get everything, and players will have some wiggle room to split off and enjoy alts without severely pigeonholing themselves (so even a crafter heavy crow, for example, can still have a good combat character, they just won't Master any Combat skills). This could work where you can only Vessel train from however far the Crow has, and adding points to the Crow for the same nodes would free up those points from the Vessel. Players won't be able to pace through a single tree any faster than anyone else, either, with this because you would pull from a single point pool; you'd merely be choosing Crow or Vessel to allocate to. With this introduced, and having an extra however many points that can be Vessel-specific, we could see the re-introduction of the Race tree allowing players to fill out minor buffs for each race like increased stat caps and minor general craft and harvest buffs (or, at least each race group, so Human, Elf, Monster, Stoneborn, Guinecean)

 

Second, greatly expand and refine the skill trees as they exist now. Harvesting as it exists currently feels pretty good with respect to specialization so it doesn't feel like there's much to do to enhance this. The parts that could use some expanding is Combat with a near total overhaul applied to Crafting. Combat should be split up a bit and restructured a bit, having the Weaponry and Armor branches as they stand now, but making some changes as specified further below. Crafting needs to be restructured almost entirely and have new branches added in as detailed below.

 

For Combat, simply tweaking and fleshing out more options will be sufficient, but overall it's adequate as is. Consider introducing three new trees that require Armor and Weapons maxed to reach. These would be named along the lines something like Warrior, Specialist, and Medic. These would provide passives dedicated to benefiting DPS specs, tank/CC utility specs, and healing specs respectfully. For Weapons, consider swapping things around, you choose One Handed Combat, Two Handed Combat, Melee Mastery, or Ranged Mastery along with an additional three Mastery trees: Organic Mastery, Physical Mastery, and Elemental Mastery. I feel like this might split things a bit better but that's just a whatever. This isn't anywhere necessary we don't think, but it would be nice to see this expanded, especially if the point cap and vessel points are introduced so players can better specialize.

 

Now, the part that needs the absolute most work of all: Crafting. The overhaul here isn't just going to be the passive tree, either. This also will need to include some real tweaks on material requirements and other costs based on the rarity tier being worked, if additives are being used or not, and to also ensure that every level of commonality (except maybe white?) is valuable to craft with for gear. First, you should need to unlock access to make items of a certain grade, requiring a certain amount of the tree unlocked to reach each level (e.g. you can't craft with Blue materials/components until you unlock that node). This will give players good milestones to reach and make sure newer crafters know their limits. Second, crafter gear (like necromancer goggles) should also require hitting a certain crafting level in that crafting tree. This will help make master crafters stand out, but with things balanced out so non-masters can still contribute useful stuff. Third, dust and ember costs need to be offloaded more towards utilizing those items so that players can make good use of lesser quality ingredients without using up nearly as much dust/ember resource so they can still make decent gear. As it is now, even if you didn't need to be a master to make great gear, you're only hurting yourself crafting greens/whites because of the amount of dust needed, or without additives because the benefits are too good. Green grade non-additive gear should still have value to make and not be too expensive for mat/dust requirements since as things stand now there is no “stepping stone” intermediate gear anywhere comparable to even master crafted blue and that makes gear disparity problems even worse. Fourth, experimentation points should be frontloaded on the tree so you get more experimentation early to help with crafting decent lower grade gear, while further mastering crafts improve your risky experimentation to max out high grade gear. Fifth, requiring hitting the final Mastery node of any appropriate craft should unlock additional specialist crafting trees: Component Mastery, Weapon Mastery, Armor Mastery, Tinkerer (experimentation and crafter gear focus), and Taskmaster (Thrall focus for when Thralls are ready to go).

 

 

Hopefully, this assessment will be taken to heart, and a serious overhaul of these systems will be worked on. No one should feel pigeonholed, no one should require master crafting or days of dust/ember grinding to get reasonably competitive gear, and no one should be time gated from feeling useful or doing what they want to do.

Edited by Deioth

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3 hours ago, Deioth said:

One in particular dove in expecting to be able to become a great crafter,

How much time do people expect it to take to be a great crafter? 


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7 hours ago, Deioth said:
  1. Simply Add Active Training.

There already is an active component to training. Get yourself a better vessel and level it up. Get yourself crafting gear and the discs you need. You don't have to craft these things. Gather the mats and find those more experienced crafters to make them for you. 

Make use of the economy. Just because you can't craft something doesn't mean you can't obtain it.

 

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4 hours ago, miraluna said:

How much time do people expect it to take to be a great crafter? 

Irrelevant.  The point is, she couldn't actively work to become one.  It's entirely time gated.  And the game's current iteration effectively punishes you for crafting without significant passive investment given resource costs.  Had she been able to work within a reasonable amount of time to become an effective crafter, she'd still be playing, but with that having been her biggest interest the game's very design pushed her away.  Imagine how much worse it will be for players like that when passive training is set to the much slower pace they intend for release?

 

1 hour ago, Arkade said:

There already is an active component to training. Get yourself a better vessel and level it up. Get yourself crafting gear and the discs you need. You don't have to craft these things. Gather the mats and find those more experienced crafters to make them for you. 

Make use of the economy. Just because you can't craft something doesn't mean you can't obtain it.

 

No, that is not active whatsoever.  There also is effectively no economy to speak of because the population is too small for that, and new players are flat out NOT going to be able to amass thousands of dust or dozens of embers to trade to established crafters for the good stuff (and no crafter is going to waste good mats on lesser gear to trade for gold, either).  We're fortunate we were able to find some Foreman discs for sale or we'd only just now three campaigns later maybe be gathering minerals from motherloads, and we're fortunate Spectre Legion has been sitting on Order with near maxed Necromancy to make GOOD vessels or we'd have spent a ton of mats on barely better than white vessels because three campaigns in and I'm not even 50% Necromancy.  Those facts aren't proof of the system working, those facts are proof the system is failing, because without those things we'd still have nothing and be nowhere.  The current iteration of purely passive training, requiring tons of rare mats, and needing to be maxed out in crafting to actually make proper use of said mats is simply not good design.  There are no stepping stone intermediate levels that can be feasibly or adequately reached as a new guild and as new players that would prove a clear upgrade over mob drops and allow us some potential to compete against more established players and even if there was the game lacks a means of actually getting there other than sitting on our hands for weeks on end waiting for the game decide we can.  That needs to change and quickly.

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1 hour ago, Deioth said:

Irrelevant.  The point is, she couldn't actively work to become one.  It's entirely time gated. 

 

It is not entirely time-gated.

Attribute stats comprise an enormous amount of the source for crafting and experimentation points.

Disciplines add more. 

Food, like Bon tippers, helps more.

Crafting gear add more.

Crafted vessel with the right racial bonus and enhanced stat pools allocated to the specific crafting line add tons more.

Potion of sapho, adds more.

Crafting inside a keep adds more.

Using a group with one player/character running Leadership with crafting, adds more.

 

This poorly made socks is literally for sale by people, you just need gold, which can be acquired so easily now because of the wartribe camps.

I'm literally doing all of this poorly made socks with white vessels.

I'd be the first to admit the economy and crafting system continues to be flawed in many ways, but you are totally misrepresenting the status quo because I suspect you just want to be able to actively grind no-life neckbeard your way to max skills.

This game was suppose to have zero grinding for levels and poorly made socks in the first place, you should be happy ACE decided to abandon what they promised in kickstarter to compromise for people that like to do active grinding (boggles the mind).

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52 minutes ago, DocTrine said:

 

It is not entirely time-gated.

Attribute stats comprise an enormous amount of the source for crafting and experimentation points.

Disciplines add more. 

Food, like Bon tippers, helps more.

Crafting gear add more.

Crafted vessel with the right racial bonus and enhanced stat pools allocated to the specific crafting line add tons more.

Potion of sapho, adds more.

Crafting inside a keep adds more.Using a group with one player/character running Leadership with crafting, adds more

All true, but this does not compensate for not being near maxed crafting.  These also do nothing for the other inherent problems I detailed.  The passive tree has actively pushed new players away from the game.  An active system, even a mild one (that would be balanced to be only somewhat faster than passive training alone), would go a long way there.  If on retail it would take, say, 6 months to 100% Crafting Basics and one entire crafting tree, the active training would reduce it to maybe 5 months with dedicated play (a few hours per day average), meaning all active generated points are going into that craft's skill tree. 

Your list also does nothing with regards to the issue of material costs themselves.  Perhaps part of that is a result of the pre alpha training speeds because to make anything now is a bad idea given material costs (we'd only effectively double and more on dust costs and the few blue vessels we have now were well over 700 dust each and weapons/armor are similarly expensive; that is a lot of mat grinding).  But, keeping in mind the pre alpha training speed is also the sole reason we're able to harvest at any adequate rate in the first place!

I should be max Necromancy sans thralls by the beginning of October so that's about two months total.  That isn't terrible given the game's current state, but the passive training time gate itself is still a turn off.  No brand new player could ever hope to catch up to veterans on EVE, and if they are a craft minded player then they effectively have no reason to play the game for months at a time (it's a real problem for EVE with new player retention).  Crowfall is at great risk of experiencing this exact same problem and catch up mechanics simply won't be enough.  Eldritch, as a new guild, is a prime example of this problem happening right now.

Quote

 

This poorly made socks is literally for sale by people, you just need gold, which can be acquired so easily now because of the wartribe camps.

I'm literally doing all of this poorly made socks with white vessels.

I'd be the first to admit the economy and crafting system continues to be flawed in many ways, but you are totally misrepresenting the status quo because I suspect you just want to be able to actively grind no-life neckbeard your way to max skills.

This game was suppose to have zero grinding for levels and poorly made socks in the first place, you should be happy ACE decided to abandon what they promised in kickstarter to compromise for people that like to do active grinding (boggles the mind).

Again, there is no economy right now of any meaningful sort.  This certainly causes an issue and much of that is the prealpha state and the low player pop which makes it hard to accurately critique the whole experience.  However, you seem to be taking this entire post as one guy ranting about having a bad time soloing.  This has been a guild experienceThis post reflects our concerns, problems, frustrations, and feedback as a guild.  You also seem to be misrepresenting the suggestions given flat out.  We're not asking for no-life grinding.  We're asking that the time gated passive tree be supplemented so players, especially those only really interested in crafting, have something to actively work towards.  As things stand currently, there really isn't.  You already have to grind your head off for mats and for chief/king craft books and craft equipment drops.  An active training to supplement the passive tree would be a huge boon to player retention.  And then, beyond that, we strongly believe there needs to be tweaking done to mat costs and how the crafting trees line up so that green and intermediate levels of gear can be crafted that is better than camp drops without needing additives, craft equipment, (near) maxed crafting, and mountains of dust.  The lack of any meaningful, feasible, and accessible way to kit out our guild in some stop-gap gear (especially when considering import/export restrictions and durability loss) to help us be some level of competitive against established players and guilds has further contributed to our reasoning behind this post and our feedback.

Edited by Deioth

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3 hours ago, Deioth said:

No, that is not active whatsoever.  There also is effectively no economy to speak of because the population is too small for that, and new players are flat out NOT going to be able to amass thousands of dust or dozens of embers to trade to established crafters for the good stuff (and no crafter is going to waste good mats on lesser gear to trade for gold, either).  We're fortunate we were able to find some Foreman discs for sale or we'd only just now three campaigns later maybe be gathering minerals from motherloads, and we're fortunate Spectre Legion has been sitting on Order with near maxed Necromancy to make GOOD vessels or we'd have spent a ton of mats on barely better than white vessels because three campaigns in and I'm not even 50% Necromancy.  Those facts aren't proof of the system working, those facts are proof the system is failing, because without those things we'd still have nothing and be nowhere.  The current iteration of purely passive training, requiring tons of rare mats, and needing to be maxed out in crafting to actually make proper use of said mats is simply not good design.  There are no stepping stone intermediate levels that can be feasibly or adequately reached as a new guild and as new players that would prove a clear upgrade over mob drops and allow us some potential to compete against more established players and even if there was the game lacks a means of actually getting there other than sitting on our hands for weeks on end waiting for the game decide we can.  That needs to change and quickly.

You could have easily harvested your own foreman disc. The requirements are very low.

So you found someone to make you vessels, and you were able to buy a foreman disc and harvest minerals, yet the economy isn't working? You claim that the population is too small, but that won't always be the case. If a larger population "fixes" the problem with the economy, then what's the worry?

You don't need to be maxed out in everything. You don't need to craft AT ALL to succeed in this game. That's the point you aren't getting.

The mob drops IS the intermediate step. You don't need better that to compete in PvP.

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1 hour ago, Deioth said:

we strongly believe there needs to be tweaking done to mat costs and how the crafting trees line up so that green and intermediate levels of gear can be crafted that is better than camp drops without needing additives, craft equipment, (near) maxed crafting, and mountains of dust.  The lack of any meaningful, feasible, and accessible way to kit out our guild in some stop-gap gear (especially when considering import/export restrictions and durability loss) to help us be some level of competitive against established players and guilds has further contributed to our reasoning behind this post and our feedback.

I agree with this 100%, when the crafting system was recently tweaked so that common quality was more difficult to experiment on and legendary easier it skewed the lower tier materials into worthlessness. Add onto that change that a new crafter or harvester is going to have little to no training and the end product of your labor is going to feel like a lot of wasted time. I reported this in the feedback thread before it even hit the live server but since most of the people involved in the conversation had their training maxed already it barely even got a second glance.

 

There are three main issues working together to make this situation bad:

1. While I do appreciate the addition of item drops such as armor and weapons for lessening the stress of crafting, it also completely negates the value of anything crafted at lesser quality levels or training. Common quality crafted gear should be at least as good as the vast majority of item drops.

2. The experimentation difficulty on the lower tiers ends up giving less than competitive results. The quoted "30% difference between lowest and highest tier crafted gear" was made using a fully trained and probably geared crafter. Anyone less than fully kitted out for their chosen crafting specialization is going to have depressing results trying to work with low tier mats. And if new crafters can't use the piles of common and uncommon materials then who is that mass of resources intended for?

3. The passive training system is a huge turn off for anyone that wants to primarily be craft or harvest focused. For a guild like Eldritch that doesn't even have any members max passive trained the two problems above contribute to crafting results that are enough to make people give up the game. This isn't posturing from someone threatening to take their ball and leave this is something that actually happened, and it isn't the first time.

 

I think the best solution is to either rework or remove the passive training requirements from craft focused play, there is already a huge grind getting the crafting vessels and gear online without the need to time gate a new guilds ability to even participate.

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40 minutes ago, Arkade said:

You could have easily harvested your own foreman disc. The requirements are very low.

So you found someone to make you vessels, and you were able to buy a foreman disc and harvest minerals, yet the economy isn't working? You claim that the population is too small, but that won't always be the case. If a larger population "fixes" the problem with the economy, then what's the worry?

You don't need to be maxed out in everything. You don't need to craft AT ALL to succeed in this game. That's the point you aren't getting.

The mob drops IS the intermediate step. You don't need better that to compete in PvP.

New guild, and resources are extremely limited given this is a prealpha game.  We were fortunate to even discover that disc was a thing.  We went into Order fully expecting to be alone.  Imagine now that we didn't get Foreman.  Imagine now that we didn't have a small and established crew to work with.  Then tell me again with a straight face that you could recommend the economy in its current state.  I think I've more than conceded in my initial post and responses that the economy as it stands now does make things more difficult to assess as fully as they should be, so imagine this from the perspective of going into Dregs.  Imagine we were a brand new guild eager for a hardcore experience and realizing that the game actively prevents us from competing.  Because of passive training, crafting issues, material costs, and gear disparities we cannot hold our own even if we manage an advantage in numbers.  This risks being the experience of other new players and guilds come retail.  The source of these issues needs to be addressed now while there is still time.

If we didn't need to craft "at all" and the warcamp drops are supposed to be the intermediate step, then the power difference between world drops and crafted goods is too wide.  If we don't need to craft "at all" then this gap should be narrowed significantly.  Since this game by design intends for crafting to be an integral part of the experience, giving more value to world drops is a bad idea.  They are starter equipment and should be nothing more.  So, yes, we DO need to craft--as a guild--but the game's inherent designs between the passive tree, the material costs, and the ineffective gear new crafters can create is then requiring us to rely on an economy that isn't established and we cannot afford.  Even if the economy were sound, we are time gated from effectively gathering worth while trading materials, but then even after we gather them that ensures we have nothing left for ourselves when we actually CAN craft something worth while.

I've crit a neckbreaker on leather for less than 1K using only world drops while I've died in 4 left clicks from a god damned ranger.  Almost entirely world gear (other than vessels) and a group of 9 can't complete a kill against one leather wearing duelist (stealth plays a factor, we didn't have an anti-stealth at the time, but being wailed on that hard and not dying?  Seriously?).  Meanwhile, we're stared at and are at half health and our healers can't keep us alive.  We get someone to half health 10 of us hitting him, he's Rescued to full instantly while our healers rescue for less than a white damage neckbreaker we take in response.  Five of us with two healers couldn't out damage the heals of ONE earthkeeper or out heal the damage of ONE brigand.  This is what the gear disparity has felt like.  Sounds an awful lot like we need to craft but the game effectively isn't letting us because of flawed design.

This is the experience we have had.  Recruits--brand new players--are leaving because of gear disparity and time gating we have no means of compensating against.  Make no mistake, we fully expected to have an uphill battle.  We actively want it.  But, we expect an uphill battle we can actually climb, and the current iteration of crafting and harvesting all stemming heavily from the current iteration of skill training has ensured that we're climbing not a hill but an oil slicked cliff.  I don't think it's asking too much that after nearly two months in as a fresh guild that we should be able to establish ourselves on at least some level of competitiveness, that we can at least fight back, and currently it feels as if a hopeless cause.  We're getting closer, early October probably, to being at the level we need to be to make the gear we need, but that's only because of the increased passive training speed.  Imagine this experience in retail when it is significantly slowed down.  This is why we need these issues fixed now before it is too late to change these systems.

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26 minutes ago, Deioth said:

establish ourselves on at least some level of competitiveness, that we can at least fight back, and currently it feels as if a hopeless cause.

You guys chose to play on order which was expected and known to basically be an empty faction. You could have chosen to align closely with the main Chaos guilds and worked together with them, etc.

Again, I'm not saying the system works well, but I also think your statements are mostly off-base.

The economy does work, maybe not as well as it did 1 year ago, but with vendors in temples there is all kinds of stuff being sold.

Not a lot of crafted gear, but there is nothing preventing that.

The crafting system needs to be improved but making it all active training is a big leap. If the economy and vendor system worked better you would be able to acquire even more stuff from other players, more easily.

Amazingly, EVE Online has a completely time gated crafting system and has one of the most vibrant in-game economies I've ever seen in any MMO.

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"You guys chose to play on order which was expected and known to basically be an empty faction. You could have chosen to align closely with the main Chaos guilds and worked together with them, etc." - this really isn't the point. Nice try though.

 

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If you're looking to gear up some Crafters maybe the community can pitch in and get you some Crafters sets.  This will hopefully get more Order players fit for combat and competitive on the battlefield and make the game more fun in the current build.  I'm willing to help so let me know if you're interested.

 

This doesn't fix the inherent issues in the game but it would be nice if there was a guild on Order to help lead and grow the faction.

Edited by Dern

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Hello! Someone gave me a heads up about this thread and I thought it would be a good idea to pop in here and say a few things. The absolute first of which is that, even though Crowfall is currently a live product, it is in no way, shape, or form, completed. I've mentioned this before a few times, but one of the unique attributes of working on a live game is the ability to iterate after a few play cycles.  

I'm going to use our skill trees as an actual example of this iteration cycle to hopefully paint a bigger picture of how the iteration process on a live product can work. Up until a few cycles ago our talent trees didn't exist and everything was tied to a skill tree, and those trees were really in-depth. After some observation, play testing, and brainstorming, the vessel talent trees were drafted up and added as a way to add a bit more customization without passive training. 

We have a lot of talks internally about our current systems and how they are affected by learning curves and guild dynamics. We have a laundry list of items we'd like to adjust over time, and adjustments to the crafting system and the general economy are just some of the key items we're always discussing. While I can't say "yay" or "nay" to any suggestions mentioned here, or in other threads, what I can say is that constructive feedback is always welcome and appreciated. Threads like these are always great because it gets a dialog going between community members, and sometimes, developers.  

 

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56 minutes ago, DocTrine said:

You guys chose to play on order which was expected and known to basically be an empty faction. You could have chosen to align closely with the main Chaos guilds and worked together with them, etc.

Again, I'm not saying the system works well, but I also think your statements are mostly off-base.

The economy does work, maybe not as well as it did 1 year ago, but with vendors in temples there is all kinds of stuff being sold.

Not a lot of crafted gear, but there is nothing preventing that.

The crafting system needs to be improved but making it all active training is a big leap. If the economy and vendor system worked better you would be able to acquire even more stuff from other players, more easily.

Amazingly, EVE Online has a completely time gated crafting system and has one of the most vibrant in-game economies I've ever seen in any MMO.

And plenty of people have tried it and quit quickly because of that time gating.  Crowfall risks the exact same thing.  There badly needs to be a mix of active training so people feel value in playing, especially since it takes so long to get really deep into any tree (not just crafting).  We're discovering some quite arguably serious issues with the game's current state because of our unique position as a new guild.  Even IF there was an economy we could engage with and be competitive through that, there still are the problems facing the time gating seriously restricting player gameplay options (unless they are willing to twiddle their thumbs long enough).  There would still be the problems facing mat costs for lower grade gear and a lack of value to lower grade gear, and for newer crafters to even have anything worth crafting.

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Deioth - I appreciate your sense of adventure and wanting to 'go b***s deep' without much game knowledge. 
What I don't get is why are you so negative after?

If you train for gathering you can get good amounts of epic drop in 2 weeks with a white vessel and some blue gear/jewlery.

Grind a few days of gathering and have an already existing crafter to make your stuff and you will be in pretty much endgame gear in 3 weeks from starting from scratch - Blue vessel, epic armor/weapons/jewelry.

I hardly find that too long.

Now the fact that you lack the knowledge - that's a reality and it can be easily fixed if you would either befriend an already established guild or simply join one for 1 month or two until you get your self situated and then move on to yours.

Trying to reinvent 'the wheel' when the enemy is in the 'space age' will guarantee a  bad experience.

What I'm saying is that besides actual game issues that I agree with to some extent, you have also done things the wrong way for the results you were expecting.

Think about it and maybe restart the whole process in a manner that will allow you guys to catch up at exponential speed.

The game is quite fun and could use more established guilds.

/salute

Edited by KDSProm

Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.org

 

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I admit I only skimmed the wall of text.

First, you're badly falling into the trap of assuming perfect gear equals minimum viable PvP competitive gear.  (This is false and many folks demonstrate this regularly by playing on their non primary region server NA/EU in white vessels with wartribe gear)

Second, you shouldn't waste time crafting whites "intermediate" gear.  ACE has instead given you Mana from Heaven and wartribes gear is better than whites will be anyway.  High end purple wartribes gear is as good as good greens or crappy blue gear.

Third, your point that passive training will drive some ppl away is accurate.  It's same issue EVE faces.  (With addition of vessel leveling, I too have wondered what the point of passive training is and couldn't it get rolled into vessels or talents?--a lot of folks want the no-effort skill gains tho)

Fourth, you're point the finger at the wrong training branch.  Crafting has lots of tools to allow a crafter without skills to be effective quickly and with a bit of dust and min-maxing make gear thats only off by 5-10%. Where passive training really is an advantage, is harvesting, and there are fewer buffs/gear options (but not none) to carry noobs in this area. Check out community resources for buffs/gear options https://winterblades.net/crafting-combinations/

Fifth, many guilds in the CW (essentially every guild other than -W- and HoA) started in the last 9 months.  The many Chaos guilds started before gear got significant nerfs and normalized in 5.9. This climb is not insurmountable. It does mean you have to accept your going to be at a small disadvantage. See #1. 

Sixth, Eldritch is shooting themselves in the foot trying to be run before they can walk.  Instead of learning the game on a populated faction, they are trying to be a 10man army of Order against the rest the NA population.  (To ameliorate this issue, setup arranged fights and scrims.  Clam Stacking Casuals good crew that started in December to sparr with).

Seventh, don't turn down offered help.  I dmed Vunak August 25 and offered to pass him some BS crafting gear and vessel.  He never circled back to me.

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@vkromas We sincerely hope our experiences and this post help you guys bring things better into line.  This game has a ton of potential.  We're having a lot of fun, at least, and we're nearly there for crafting skill trees (assuming there's not a wipe as soon as we get there LOL) so everyone will get to find out just how much difference there is.  We look forward to seeing how things work out and thanks for keeping tabs on us all outside the dev partners forum hah!

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17 minutes ago, Deioth said:

@vkromas We sincerely hope our experiences and this post help you guys bring things better into line.  This game has a ton of potential.  We're having a lot of fun, at least, and we're nearly there for crafting skill trees (assuming there's not a wipe as soon as we get there LOL) so everyone will get to find out just how much difference there is.  We look forward to seeing how things work out and thanks for keeping tabs on us all outside the dev partners forum hah!

Good crafting results are not in the Passive tree. They are in the knowledge on how to build your set-up and how to craft.
Just pointing out so you don't get disappointed again when you figure out that your epic crafts have green level stats.


Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.org

 

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50 minutes ago, KDSProm said:

Deioth - I appreciate your sense of adventure and wanting to 'go b***s deep' without much game knowledge. 
What I don't get is why are you so negative after?

If you train for gathering you can get good amounts of epic drop in 2 weeks with a white vessel and some blue gear/jewlery.

Grind a few days of gathering and have an already existing crafter to make your stuff and you will be in pretty much endgame gear in 3 weeks from starting from scratch - Blue vessel, epic armor/weapons/jewelry.

I hardly find that too long.

Now the fact that you lack the knowledge - that's a reality and it can be easily fixed if you would either befriend an already established guild or simply join one for 1 month or two until you get your self situated and then move on to yours.

Trying to reinvent 'the wheel' when the enemy is in the 'space age' will guarantee a  bad experience.

What I'm saying is that besides actual game issues that I agree with to some extent, you have also done things the wrong way for the results you were expecting.

Think about it and maybe restart the whole process in a manner that will allow you guys to catch up at exponential speed.

The game is quite fun and could use more established guilds.

/salute

Not being negative.  Just sharing our collective experience.  To reiterate a few previous posts, it certainly feels like there are some major gear discrepancies showing up.  We can tell when we're facing someone in lower grade or world gear because we can actually compete against them.  Other people even at a numbers advantage seem to take nothing, or the healing on a target is very quick despite focus fire, then only a couple people go on one of our healers and they can't even cover half the incoming damage.  We expected this, and I think I already said that.  What we didn't expect was how problematic the current state of passive training and crafting would be so as to prevent us from generating some stop gap gear so we don't melt instantly or can actually damage through Sturdy and get kills and survive fights.  We were expecting to be wrecked.  At no point did I suggest I expected we could succeed let alone win with low numbers and as new players.  We were also expecting to be able to catch up at a reasonable rate.  Right now, it feels like rather than an uphill battle it's a climb up an oil slicked cliff.  Once we break the top, sure, we'll be able to compete quite nicely, but that's the point: it shouldn't be a cliff.

 

44 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

I admit I only skimmed the wall of text.

First, you're badly falling into the trap of assuming perfect gear equals minimum viable PvP competitive gear.  (This is false and many folks demonstrate this regularly by playing on their non primary region server NA/EU in white vessels with wartribe gear)

Second, you shouldn't waste time crafting whites "intermediate" gear.  ACE has instead given you Mana from Heaven and wartribes gear is better than whites will be anyway.  High end purple wartribes gear is as good as good greens or crappy blue gear.

Third, your point that passive training will drive some ppl away is accurate.  It's same issue EVE faces.  (With addition of vessel leveling, I too have wondered what the point of passive training is and couldn't it get rolled into vessels or talents?--a lot of folks want the no-effort skill gains tho)

Fourth, you're point the finger at the wrong training branch.  Crafting has lots of tools to allow a crafter without skills to be effective quickly and with a bit of dust and min-maxing make gear thats only off by 5-10%. Where passive training really is an advantage, is harvesting, and there are fewer buffs/gear options (but not none) to carry noobs in this area. Check out community resources for buffs/gear options https://winterblades.net/crafting-combinations/

Fifth, many guilds in the CW (essentially every guild other than -W- and HoA) started in the last 9 months.  The many Chaos guilds started before gear got significant nerfs and normalized in 5.9. This climb is not insurmountable. It does mean you have to accept your going to be at a small disadvantage. See #1. 

Sixth, Eldritch is shooting themselves in the foot trying to be run before they can walk.  Instead of learning the game on a populated faction, they are trying to be a 10man army of Order against the rest the NA population.  (To ameliorate this issue, setup arranged fights and scrims.  Clam Stacking Casuals good crew that started in December to sparr with).

Seventh, don't turn down offered help.  I dmed Vunak August 25 and offered to pass him some BS crafting gear and vessel.  He never circled back to me.

1. Considering our experiences against comparable gear players, good gear players, and top end gear players, world drop gear is definitely not "minimum viable" if one player can out damage a healer's healing and one healer can out heal an entire group's worth of damage.  At least, not at current populations and gear disparities.

2. We're not.  I'm suggesting that ACE give value to such grade gear, at least uncommon, and for new to intermediate level crafters to be able to make decent greens better than world drop.  Maybe not significantly, but at least enough to feel worth making at a mat cost that feels fair.  When you consider how long training will take on retail, they'll need to have stop gap gear.

3. IIRC there are plans for older vessels to be used to add experience to better vessels.  The introduction of vessel talent trees is a FECKING GOD SEND compared to what it used to be, as well.

4. That brings us to some of my other concerns.  The mat costs are very significant, mostly dust.  We all had to pool together thousands of dust just for a few vessels (representing at that point over a month of lots of harvesting, EandV streamed a lot of it even) and if not for Spectre Legion I'd have likely made some rather pitiful vessels (would have had no opportunity to have good crafting gear let alone a crafter vessel, Order doesn't have the population to hold keeps, among other issues).  Hence why part of our suggestion is to see mat costs scale up when using things like additives and high level experimentation because as it stands now it feels like a waste of material without maxing out enough of your ass/exp chances and exp points.  Current costs should be when doing everything, and reduce cost the less used and for lower grade.  We also found what you linked weeks ago and have relied on it, so kudos for the great resource!

5. We can tell.  Winterblades shows up and they can 1v5 us basically.  Tyrannical that damn SOB is just straight up wrong what he can do and survive 😋  Hax we could actually do something against, even Clams nowadays, depending on numbers and if our healers logged off.  We're nearly there for craft/harvest levels and getting closer with mats for a solid blue kit, but the climb is a cliff and that's just not good NPE.

6. We started Balance as we always planned to.  We went Order with the hopes of getting that third faction off the ground given the game's current population balance.  We're getting there and I'm proud of what we have managed to do and accomplish.

7. Can't speak to that DM.  Consider doing it again on Discord if you can.

 

22 minutes ago, KDSProm said:

Good crafting results are not in the Passive tree. They are in the knowledge on how to build your set-up and how to craft.
Just pointing out so you don't get disappointed again when you figure out that your epic crafts have green level stats.

Naturally we need to learn the crafting system itself.  That isn't the issue we're pointing to and aren't expecting to kit out in purples, but there seems to be a lack of reason to kit crafted greens.  It's either blue with additives and lots of experimentation points or it's not worth the dust.

Edited by Deioth

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8 hours ago, Deioth said:

Irrelevant.  The point is, she couldn't actively work to become one.  It's entirely time gated. 

It's not irrelevant. IF the passive training to max blacksmith took 1 week to complete, would it still be an issue?  The reason people want to "actively grind" the skill is not because grinding of worthless items is fun -  it's because they want it to go faster, and braindead grinding is easier than putting effort into learning complex systems, building a crafting character, getting properly geared, and working up the supply and economic chain. All of those things I consider to be the more important parts of being a "great crafter".

So the core of the active vs passive issue is how long should it take to max your skill tree?


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