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Deioth

The New Guild Experience - The Passive and Crafting Problem

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@Deioth

Everyone else has covered the whole crafting and training angle but something crucial that’s been mainly alluded to needs to be stressed: group composition and disciplines are hugely important to success in the meta. And to a lesser degree if folks aren’t picking the right stats to focus on gear they may also not being doing as well as they could.

I saw you mentioned eating a neckbreaker in leather, if you’re wearing leather and in such a position you are probably already dead. The game is not intended to be balanced one to one, thus the situation and the composition can drastically change the valuation of a single class.

Certain discs can temporarily reduce/negate damage of particular types or make the player more resistant under certain conditions. Some combinations can help insure you stay in a state reduces your enemies effectiveness. Thus running a counter setup is needed.

For example I mainly play a myrm and theirs a few high mitigation setups out there (Templar for example). I often find myself hitting them for sub 100 dmg normally. But to solve that problem I run Adjudicator and Shield Breaker for more penetration and armor break. Making it way more plausible for me to counter such resistant builds.

Likewise you can run some anti heal setups (tho I feel they aren’t nearly strong enough atm) for small group and 1v1 situations involving healers.

We were in the same boat way back, losing lopsided fights in our favor - but most of it was lack of mechanical knowledge in the end, not gear. And back then we didn’t have the advantage of wartribe drops to buffer our crafting.

Talk to some of the vets, compare character build notes and disc choices. Gear and training is totally important to squeezing out every advantage, but it’s not nearly as huge as understanding the way the builds and counter builds work.


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2 hours ago, Duffy said:

@Deioth

Everyone else has covered the whole crafting and training angle but something crucial that’s been mainly alluded to needs to be stressed: group composition and disciplines are hugely important to success in the meta. And to a lesser degree if folks aren’t picking the right stats to focus on gear they may also not being doing as well as they could.

I saw you mentioned eating a neckbreaker in leather, if you’re wearing leather and in such a position you are probably already dead. The game is not intended to be balanced one to one, thus the situation and the composition can drastically change the valuation of a single class.

Certain discs can temporarily reduce/negate damage of particular types or make the player more resistant under certain conditions. Some combinations can help insure you stay in a state reduces your enemies effectiveness. Thus running a counter setup is needed.

For example I mainly play a myrm and theirs a few high mitigation setups out there (Templar for example). I often find myself hitting them for sub 100 dmg normally. But to solve that problem I run Adjudicator and Shield Breaker for more penetration and armor break. Making it way more plausible for me to counter such resistant builds.

Likewise you can run some anti heal setups (tho I feel they aren’t nearly strong enough atm) for small group and 1v1 situations involving healers.

We were in the same boat way back, losing lopsided fights in our favor - but most of it was lack of mechanical knowledge in the end, not gear. And back then we didn’t have the advantage of wartribe drops to buffer our crafting.

Talk to some of the vets, compare character build notes and disc choices. Gear and training is totally important to squeezing out every advantage, but it’s not nearly as huge as understanding the way the builds and counter builds work.

Building off of what Duffy said, one of the best reasons to talk to longtime players/guilds is to learn which powers/mechanics/passives are either working incorrectly or have a vague description or an unlisted but the community has a clearer idea of the real function or value.  This is exceedingly important for the theorycraft part of the game.  Some builds, group comps, and even crafted stats can look strong in principle but are either significantly undertuned or outright non-functional.

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7 hours ago, Arkade said:

But you did get all that stuff, and as you yourself pointed out, the population is low. The economy will be a lot better with a lot more people. With a strong economy, players will be able to buy what they need. Even if it is a problem now, it won't be in the future, so there's no reason to make knee-jerk changes.

You are assuming the player base will increase by a lot. As things currently stand that is not a reasonable assumption. You are also assuming there will be an economy, that also is not a reasonable assumption as things are currently.

 

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5 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

You are assuming the player base will increase by a lot. As things currently stand that is not a reasonable assumption. You are also assuming there will be an economy, that also is not a reasonable assumption as things are currently.

 

If it doesn’t the game is probably dead. Also not a huge surprise that the population for a pre alpha with wipes isn’t great. 


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1 minute ago, Duffy said:

Also not a huge surprise that the population for a pre alpha with wipes isn’t great. 

Not sure about that. I have been in quite a few alpha tests and I have to say this one is radically different. It treated as a 24/7 game with all the grind, little pvp and no workable 'throne war' vice a test platform with easy access to everything in order to test between wipes. Remove the grind and folks wont be so upset about wipes in pre-alpha.

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the I idea of an PvP game which requires players to grind, craft and wait for months or even years to compete with other players stats-wise is the stupidest idea I ever heard of, sorry.
If you want a game to be PvP based it needs to be fair stats-wise. Wake up we have 2019 not 2004. 

Edited by kim-lee

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48 minutes ago, kim-lee said:

PvP game which requires players to grind, craft and wait for months or even years to compete with other players stats-wise

We're discussing Crowfall, not Black Desert Online 😛


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14 hours ago, DocTrine said:

 

You can, but as is evident by your posts your guild has not accepted help from others and you don't seem interested in doing all the things in game that are designed to boost your crafting ability apart from passive training.

What's funny is I don't think you realize that it use to be the case that recipes were actually gated by passive training. lmao

But anyway, the core thing here is you at least stated what your time frame expectations are which is what you should have said more concisely from the very beginning. You want your small guild that is brand new to be equally competitive as people in bigger groups that have been here since the last wipe, and some having been here for 3+ years - in a couple weeks.

Amazingly, you can be, or close to it, you just have to do a lot of work like A LOT of work- which you can actually do - but I sense that you don't want to do that stuff but would rather just grind out mobs or grind out crafting poorly made socks nobody will ever use to gain crafting points you can allocate.

I respect your guys attempt to be hard chargers, and most of us recognize the crafting system needs to be improved, but you aren't gong to get much sympathy from people who have been neckbearding this game for more than a year if you aren't doing all the stuff we have to do to be competitive.

 

Quoting myself from an earlier reply to another responder: "[A]nd we're fortunate Spectre Legion has been sitting on Order with near maxed Necromancy to make GOOD vessels".  MrErad hooked us up and the difference was night and day.  To my knowledge, Vunak had already been talking things over with some of the offerings, but honestly Spectre Legion is already filling in our passive training gap (and now another guild that moved Order is offering assistance as well, much easier while on same faction ya know?)  If by some fortunate chance of materials and dust we can kit a majority of our active members in weapons AND armor at the same time it'll be a night and day difference on friggen Mercury.  I think W, HoA, and Clams (as the three most geared guilds) will suddenly realize Player 3 has entered the game and it's name is Order.

I actually recall that recipes used to be time gated, too.  I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic at hand, however.

No, you're adding words to my arguments and conflating what I am asking for by reading too far into what I've said.  We should be competitive, not equal.  There's a difference.  And by competitive we're talking gear disparities.  We're not only behind in that, we're behind in the Combat tree, as well.

If you "sense" we're asking for an easy out or aren't interested in spending the time, you need to get your gut checked.  The great majority of the guild's time in game has been harvest, harvest, harvest.  We arguably spend more time on hunting kings/chiefs than PvPing because most fights are too lopsided for us to go roaming or fighting over forts and keeps so we're dedicating ourselves hard to getting what we need to compete.  And no, I'm not asking to just "grind out mobs", the suggestion is that in-game activity gives you active points to allocate so that actually playing progresses you unlike the current purely passive skill tree.  ANY activity that generates points on the Leader board, as well as harvesting and PvE, would generate active points.  Maybe one third to half tops of a single 24 hours worth of passive training in the same 24 hour window could be actively trained and would require over 8 hours of constant play to cap daily active points.

We're already "neckbearding" the game, bruh.  Not our fault the passive trees and crafting system are in a bad state right now.

11 hours ago, Arkade said:

But you did get all that stuff, and as you yourself pointed out, the population is low. The economy will be a lot better with a lot more people. With a strong economy, players will be able to buy what they need. Even if it is a problem now, it won't be in the future, so there's no reason to make knee-jerk changes.

To reiterate a since repeatedly conceded point, the current population makes accurate assessment of the economy quite difficult.  That does NOT change the problems otherwise facing the current state of the passive training tree and crafting in general of which the current economy exacerbates.

11 hours ago, VaMei said:

It may not be obvious from the outside, but this is a huge part of it. With maxed passive skills in runecrafting, my runecrafter without crafting gear, using a basic vessel & sitting in temple can at best make 'ok' tools; like blue +45-50 with full re-roll and almost no experimentation available for durability or the alloy effect.

Getting to top level crafting is as much about the gear as the passives, and it takes multiple rounds of your Runecrafter, Blacksmith, Jewelcrafter & Necromancer making incrementally better gear and vessels for each other to get there. And as Doc said, you need Sapho, Tippers, Pot Pie, Thrall buff from a keep, crafting leadership, as well as loot gear with Str/Dex/Int for each of those craftsmen to do their best work.

 

We're currently working towards getting crafting vessels ready and crafting gear prepped, as well as harvest equivalents.  All of these things obviously are necessary to be the best of the best you can be.  But, none of these things make up for the current state of passive training and crafting in general.  You're still heavily time gated and there's still the problem of lack of value to low/mid-level crafting.  Unless you're maxed (enough) with at least blue or better plus additives, it's not worth it.

7 hours ago, Duffy said:

*snip*

Mostly advice we've since been able to pick up, but I am offering my sincerest appreciation for taking the time to provide what you can.  And to clarify, I'm maining alpha warrior, I'm not wearing leather, it was a pitiful crit neckbreaker against leather, meanwhile I'd take a non-crit neckbreaker of 2500 or 3k or something while Sturdy is active.  It was to help accentuate gear disparity we've encountered.  Apologies if I could have worded it better.

5 hours ago, Dern said:

Building off of what Duffy said, one of the best reasons to talk to longtime players/guilds is to learn which powers/mechanics/passives are either working incorrectly or have a vague description or an unlisted but the community has a clearer idea of the real function or value.  This is exceedingly important for the theorycraft part of the game.  Some builds, group comps, and even crafted stats can look strong in principle but are either significantly undertuned or outright non-functional.

Quite true.  I'd rather be playing a Pit Fighter over Alpha Warrior but there's little place for "tank" specs right now, especially with our low population so we don't have room for such classes unless we can discover a solid synergy.  We just lack the resources to properly test it.

 

Edited by Deioth

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4 hours ago, miraluna said:

We're discussing Crowfall, not Black Desert Online 😛

ty you for mentioning Black Desert. It's both the same principle you have to invest a lot of time or money, which is basically the same, just to keep up stats-wise. I'm not opposing leveling or customization in general even time-gating might be an option but the excessiveness as it is used in Black Desert and Crowfall just destroys those games.

Just limit it to a few days or hours and then let players have fun in PvP. Instead of forcing them to grind, wait or pay a lot of money. Those who want to Grind all day can still play WoW or Black Desert online.

Edited by kim-lee

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14 hours ago, Deioth said:

I think W, HoA, and Clams (as the three most geared guilds) will suddenly realize Player 3 has entered the game and it's name is Order.

I've been waiting for there to be enough players and willpower on Order to actually test the 3-faction system as designed instead of this broken two-faction system.  I look forward to facing you all on the battlefield!

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18 hours ago, Deioth said:

 

Quite true.  I'd rather be playing a Pit Fighter over Alpha Warrior but there's little place for "tank" specs right now, especially with our low population so we don't have room for such classes unless we can discover a solid synergy.  We just lack the resources to properly test it.

 

Let us (clams, but I'm sure others agree) know if you want to scrim or duel, even numbers, etc., be it in sunday's finest or all white gear.  We've all had the benefit of doing this amongst each other and it helps to give perspective on game mechanics when you know exactly what the enemy is wearing vs. what you have, and test combat tactics and class combos rapidly.

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On 9/12/2019 at 3:05 PM, Duffy said:

...

Certain discs can temporarily reduce/negate damage of particular types or make the player more resistant under certain conditions. Some combinations can help insure you stay in a state reduces your enemies effectiveness. Thus running a counter setup is needed.

For example I mainly play a myrm and theirs a few high mitigation setups out there (Templar for example). I often find myself hitting them for sub 100 dmg normally. But to solve that problem I run Adjudicator and Shield Breaker for more penetration and armor break. Making it way more plausible for me to counter such resistant builds.

Likewise you can run some anti heal setups (tho I feel they aren’t nearly strong enough atm) for small group and 1v1 situations involving healers.

We were in the same boat way back, losing lopsided fights in our favor - but most of it was lack of mechanical knowledge in the end, not gear. And back then we didn’t have the advantage of wartribe drops to buffer our crafting.

Talk to some of the vets, compare character build notes and disc choices. Gear and training is totally important to squeezing out every advantage, but it’s not nearly as huge as understanding the way the builds and counter builds work.

I won't mince words here. Everything you described above is exactly why Crowfall's combat sucks ass right now. The combat went from being something that ranged between average to mediocre pre-disc to what is now something sitting between mediocre and garbage tier. I know major and more comprehensive balance passes will only happen closer to launch, but there's no skill, mechanical input or nuance to CF's combat, only builds and comps and counters and hard counters. The ceiling is just so low, provided both sides have equally decent shot calls and ppl who knows which skills to use and can listen, more often than not the fight is decided before it even starts, by just looking at the comps/builds. I've been saying this for years, but it just falls on deaf ears. And I won't even go into the problematic mess that healing has always been. Unless they completely revamp the balance and purpose of discs, classes and other mechanics CF will just be a spread sheet meta game. 


 

 

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3 hours ago, Dern said:

Let us (clams, but I'm sure others agree) know if you want to scrim or duel, even numbers, etc., be it in sunday's finest or all white gear.  We've all had the benefit of doing this amongst each other and it helps to give perspective on game mechanics when you know exactly what the enemy is wearing vs. what you have, and test combat tactics and class combos rapidly.

Something to consider, maybe between campaigns since we'll be hammering harvesting hard during spring and summer of the current campaign.  Being able to see and test the differences in real time would help put things into perspective for sure.

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On 9/12/2019 at 7:18 AM, DocTrine said:

 

You can, but as is evident by your posts your guild has not accepted help from others and you don't seem interested in doing all the things in game that are designed to boost your crafting ability apart from passive training.

What's funny is I don't think you realize that it use to be the case that recipes were actually gated by passive training. lmao

But anyway, the core thing here is you at least stated what your time frame expectations are which is what you should have said more concisely from the very beginning. You want your small guild that is brand new to be equally competitive as people in bigger groups that have been here since the last wipe, and some having been here for 3+ years - in a couple weeks.

Amazingly, you can be, or close to it, you just have to do a lot of work like A LOT of work- which you can actually do - but I sense that you don't want to do that stuff but would rather just grind out mobs or grind out crafting poorly made socks nobody will ever use to gain crafting points you can allocate.

I respect your guys attempt to be hard chargers, and most of us recognize the crafting system needs to be improved, but you aren't gong to get much sympathy from people who have been neckbearding this game for more than a year if you aren't doing all the stuff we have to do to be competitive.

 

Evident by what posts? Others have already said they have been assisting us. Just because I don't accept help from everyone doesn't mean we aren't working with others. We are working within our faction. Like I said before, we appreciate everyone extending a hand, but it isn't our goal to receive handouts from everywhere. That is a band-aid created by the community, while appreciated isn't exactly helpful in terms of testing. 

Been playing on and off since Hunger Dome. Have plenty of experience with each iteration of the game.  

Please explain to me then how exactly you are supposed to get 19-20 experimentation points without passive training, since experimentation points and experimentation success are such massive components in the quality of gear you can make. If you don't have that many experimentation points and success to work with the gear/vessels you churn out is going to be vastly inferior to anything anyone else that does have it can make. We aren't even talking about adding the ability to harvest higher grade materials efficiently to compete with people that have Epic/Legendary gear/vessels. Just Rare gear to put us in a bracket to be competitive. I really want to know in case we are missing something crucial. 

To be blunt, nobody in my guild actually cares about sympathy from anyone. These posts were to get information out based on our experiences with the game for the devs to see. If you guys want to throw input in on how wrong we are and give reasons, more power to you. But so far I haven't seen any tangible evidence to suggest that there actually is a way to become baseline competitive as a new player/guild outside of get handouts from other people. Using peoples throwaway poorly made socksty blue vessels that get put up on vendors isn't going to help anything either. 

War tribe gear doesnt help when you are non combat passive trained white vessels vs combat passive trained blue-legendary gear/vessels. The stats compound. I don't know how many times I have to say it. 15% isn't 15% anymore when everything is taken into account. 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Vunak said:

War tribe gear doesnt help when you are non combat passive trained white vessels vs combat passive trained blue-legendary gear/vessels. The stats compound. I don't know how many times I have to say it. 15% isn't 15% anymore when everything is taken into account. 

 

People from Vanguard are coming over from Euro, and vice versa, in wartribe gear and contributing in a meaningful way. 

But let's go past that for a second, this isn't about you guys being competitive, it's about you wanting to be equivalent, in a matter of weeks.

You don't have to have equivalent everything in order to be competitive. Unless of course your guild is the only one on your faction, then you're going to have trouble. But that was your choice.

To be competitive, numbers really matter in this game - if gear is equal they matter a lot. But Group comps, positioning, choosing your targets and timing to get numerical advantages if possible - they can let people with not the shiniest gear win fights against better geared people.

Gear is important, but you don't have the shiniest gear to win all the time. You go on about experimentation points - do you really, and truly believe that one person have 10% more crit damage is going to make the duel a blow out? Or how about 8 percent fire damage on same gear types?

You could have amazing gear and have a terrible group comp or class choice and discipline choices, or bad luck, and still get wrecked.

 

 

This is less about saying your wrong and more about questioning your assumptions.

You think a new guild should be competitive with highest performing guilds within weeks, working essentially alone - in a game that is designed to force people to have to collaborate and not being able to do everything by themselves, or everything in general, right away.

 


The cold never bothered me anyway.

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39 minutes ago, DocTarius said:

 

People from Vanguard are coming over from Euro, and vice versa, in wartribe gear and contributing in a meaningful way. 

But let's go past that for a second, this isn't about you guys being competitive, it's about you wanting to be equivalent, in a matter of weeks.

You don't have to have equivalent everything in order to be competitive. Unless of course your guild is the only one on your faction, then you're going to have trouble. But that was your choice.

To be competitive, numbers really matter in this game - if gear is equal they matter a lot. But Group comps, positioning, choosing your targets and timing to get numerical advantages if possible - they can let people with not the shiniest gear win fights against better geared people.

Gear is important, but you don't have the shiniest gear to win all the time. You go on about experimentation points - do you really, and truly believe that one person have 10% more crit damage is going to make the duel a blow out? Or how about 8 percent fire damage on same gear types?

You could have amazing gear and have a terrible group comp or class choice and discipline choices, or bad luck, and still get wrecked.

 

 

This is less about saying your wrong and more about questioning your assumptions.

You think a new guild should be competitive with highest performing guilds within weeks, working essentially alone - in a game that is designed to force people to have to collaborate and not being able to do everything by themselves, or everything in general, right away.

 

There is no way to say this without coming off as condescending, but you continue to put words in our mouths and hear things we aren't saying.  You also seem to think this is all entirely about wanting to be equivalent (we can't simply because of the population.  We'll field 12 people between Eldritch and Spectre and be 80% of online Order, take a fort, and Clams or Winterblades alone bring 20 without even trying and that's an entirely different issue we already accept the reality of).  A lot of this post's core feedback, which compounds the issue of feasibly reaching competitive viability in a timely fashion, has to do with the time gating of the passive tree and the baseline necessity of near max crafting because of just how many experimentation points and how much exp success you need to even make anything worth a damn. 

We can't put it much clearer than we have.  The core feedback is: 1. The timegating in the passive tree is actively pushing away new players and needs to be addressed through various means; arguably this should include a supplementary active training component.  2. The crafting system is too backloaded requiring near maxed trees and needs an overhaul; new/intermediate crafters need to be able to make viable gear that is consistently better than wartribes using white/green mats.  If these were problems were addressed, we'd have a very different experience to share and have a few more wins under our belts.

We want to be competitive in PvP ("top end" guilds are irrelevant).  We want to have a chance with numbers being equal.  That simply isn't happening.  We can tell if someone has good crafted gear or not.  The difference is night and day.  Someone geared by crafters takes significantly less damage from us, does significantly more damage than us, and heals significantly more than us.  And that's without even knowing what their combat tree looks like.  But, someone geared by war tribes?  It's nice doing more than 700 with a damage buffed Neckbreaker.  I've given plenty of personal examples of what differences gear/combat training can result in.  It's quite demonstrable.  If we could kit out with intermediate gear a notch or two above Wartribes, we'd be viably competitive.

And if the wave of new players that show up to try Beta feel like they can't compete or catch up because of time gating or an inadequate backloaded design with crafting and give up within days/weeks, I hope we don't have to say, "We told you so."

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24 minutes ago, Deioth said:

2. The crafting system is too backloaded requiring near maxed trees and needs an overhaul; new/intermediate crafters need to be able to make viable gear that is consistently better than wartribes using white/green mats. 

I feel this is a core problem that is causing a lot of other issues down the line. They added rng drops recently and have not yet addressed crafting. Not having a working marketplace/economy isn't helping matter any.

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26 minutes ago, Deioth said:

I hope we don't have to say, "We told you so."

actually I can say it, I told them so a year ago. I guess the only way to make your point is to stop playing this game and to encourage all other players in your guild to stop playing. And not to recruit any new players. This might be the only solution for them to realize that they are choking their own game by a mechanic that heavily discriminates new players.

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21 minutes ago, kim-lee said:

actually I can say it, I told them so a year ago. I guess the only way to make your point is to stop playing this game and to encourage all other players in your guild to stop playing. And not to recruit any new players. This might be the only solution for them to realize that they are choking their own game by a mechanic that heavily discriminates new players.

Isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? I think a far more effective way to get your message across would have been to continue to be involved in discussions and to try and actively help the game be a success. Voicing concerns in jan and then again in sep isn't really being engaged. 

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"There is no way to say this without coming off as condescending, but you continue to put words in our mouths and hear things we aren't saying."

Well, what else can I do when you guys keep making asanine statements. Like this ones you just made.

"We can tell if someone has good crafted gear or not." -- No, you literally cannot.

"The timegating in the passive tree is actively pushing away new players and needs to be addressed through various means; arguably this should include a supplementary active training component." -- Maybe, I'm sure a not-insignificant portion of players don't like it. But you literally have no meaningful data on why people stop playing. ACE might, but I don't think they do uninstall exit interviews. 

"And if the wave of new players that show up to try Beta feel like they can't compete or catch up because of time gating or an inadequate backloaded design with crafting and give up within days/weeks, I hope we don't have to say" -- And how many of them are trying to play in a faction by themselves or don't bother forming a sizeable guild at all.

"We'll field 12 people between Eldritch and Spectre and be 80% of online Order, take a fort, and Clams or Winterblades alone bring 20 without even trying and that's an entirely different issue we already accept the reality of)." --- I love how everybody else thinks Clams and WB don't try very hard. We have people literally spending 8 hours a day in this custardin game. Most nights we are still begging people to log in. I mean, you act like WB people never outnumbered. HAX has tons of people - just the other day me and a single group had to play the ninja game just to try and capture outposts because a group of 10 HAX rolled over us like dried wheat.

 

For some inexplicable reason you guys, as a new guild, decided to go hard and mostly alone. But glad you accepted the reality of that. But seriously that going alone thing is what has compounded your newness issues --- 

Almost all of your gear problems could be solved by simply buying/trading vessels and gear from other guilds like WB, HoA, HAX, Clams, etc.

I've gotten every single damn one of my rare drop crafting items from other people in my faction or off vendors.

 

 


The cold never bothered me anyway.

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