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Deioth

The New Guild Experience - The Passive and Crafting Problem

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3 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? I think a far more effective way to get your message across would have been to continue to be involved in discussions and to try and actively help the game be a success. Voicing concerns in jan and then again in sep isn't really being engaged. 

guess this game is actually selling quite good, but no one is playing due to the passive system. I'm just the voice of all those players stopped playing, so hopefully something will change.

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3 minutes ago, kim-lee said:

guess this game is actually selling quite good, but no one is playing due to the passive system. I'm just the voice of all those players stopped playing, so hopefully something will change.

 

Whats funny is I mostly agree with a lot of the issues being talked about, but I'm not going to empathize with folks who shoot themselves in the foot before running a race for the first time. It's asinine.

Like seriously, I agree the crafting system is a lot of work, and passive training is problematic. But they are not insurmountable. Newer groups like HAX and Clams are doing it.

I've been here for years and seen a lot of people show up and get loud and disapear. I fully expect to not see 75% of the names in this thread after the end of the year. Personally, I have my doubts about the game doing well regardless.

But in general a lot of this heresay. I've seen in my own group guys in legendary vessel rush in and get deleted. I've also watched vids of guys coming across servers from Europe in wartribe gear roll over people.

This all is way more complicated than best gear = win.

 


The cold never bothered me anyway.

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1 hour ago, DocTarius said:

*snip*

You're not contributing to your argument if you're going to continue to dismiss our experience like this.  And despite evidence we provide, you continue to act as if it isn't there.  We're living examples of the problems facing the game's economy, crafting system, passive training, and overall new player experience and you're dismissing us out of hand because you seem convinced we're butt hurt we can't play to crush out the gate.  And you continue to make core to your argument against us everything we already admitted to knowing and accepted going into it.  We know we're new, we know we're small, we know Order isn't populated, we did it anyway because we wanted to.  Find new talking points.

This is pre-alpha.  People should be here to test as much as they're here to play.  Either debate us on the merits or kindly refrain from ad hominems and non-sequitors.

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@Deioth @kim-lee

#1 problem is people are approaching this thing like it is a GAME. It is not a game. It is a PRE-ALPHA of a game to come. We are missing too many parts and the ones we do have are still under cooked.

Some believe that stats magically make or break outcomes. This is not true. It is multiple factors and while stats are part of it, I highly doubt the winning teams would just roll over and lose if stats were no longer a factor.

The PRE-ALPHA doesn't have a real economy, there is no passive training catch up mechanic, there is a laughable population, highly organized/knowledgeable teams are up against month old guilds that may or may not know the game as well.

The last item is very important. I see this in pretty much any game I've ever played. Take any MOBA or something like Overwatch. People see X player or team running a particular setup, they copy it and then continue to lose. It isn't just about having a particular build or playing the meta. Some people/teams are just straight out better then others. If not, we'd all be top tier competitive Fortnite players winning millions...Simply not reality. No matter how good you might think you are, someone else is better. Unfortunately there are too few players and not enough campaigns to spread people out. Instead of a guild of 20-40 being part of 500-1000 in a faction, they are the faction for all intents and purposes. Or that 40 squad running around in Dregs, they are in a Faction setup. These things matter a lot.

There is also supposed to be some progression in this game. We aren't supposed to be in blue/legendary overnight. New guilds/crafters likely aren't supposed to be popping out high tier stuff quickly. The speed and what that looks like is unknown to me, but I highly doubt the current model is the intended finished version. If a new guild can just hop in and be on par with one that has been around for months/years that defeats the purpose of progression and any natural tier system. Again, not sure if ACE has a plan in place, but what some want and what the design suggests don't match.

People seem to want XYZ fixed or put in now when it seems painfully obvious that this team isn't able to do it for whatever reason. I've had concerns about Passive Training since the first version several years ago. Despite several overhauls it remains the same and still no catch up in sight or even spelled out. The last Q&A made it seem like they are maybe going in a different direction again with catch up.

I don't know what this "transparent" team is working on, but they don't seem to have the talent or resources to do what we all want all the time. Regardless, many of the issues I see brought up are 100% related to this not being finished. Although the finished product might not fix any of these issues either and might just bring more. 

I agree with @TowB that maxing training or doing something different would likely be much better for testing purposes. This is a TEST. ACE and in turn the tiny community pretending it is a game is not helping. Maxed training would at least remove this one factor that we can't control directly through active gameplay. I can't make time go faster.

One thing I don't get is looking at forum account age, most of those raising concerns about the passive system should have a decent amount of things trained. Obviously not 5 crafts or every weapon maxed, but still should have a good deal trained by this point. Maybe take a break from PRE-ALPHA which isn't life or death important, train up, and in a month or ten, come back and prove that gear is the only factor making a difference...pretty sure we'll still be in PRE-ALPHA by then. Maybe maybe ALPHA but what does it matter.

I don't like the passive system for the obvious issues it brings nor do I like a lot of the design choices, that's why I log in to train and screw around here and there but don't bother really. My input is not rushed to Todd's desk daily. You can get all the participation trophies with minimal effort. There is zero reason to get up in arms over a far from finished game, let a lone any pixels. Devs aren't going to magically fix or change things because 5 people discussed it on a forum. How many actual bugs have been floating around for months/years? Dregs better drag this thing a mile a head or I doubt we'll see even the tiny population after it goes live. I'd like to see them try some form of active progression on top of passive (trash passive all together ideally) but it is ACE's game so is what it is. Suck it up and accept their vision and the version we have or move along. Not worth the aggravation.

In the meantime, talk to others and try to get better gear if you aren't able to make it yourself. Seems like the evil winning teams are willing to work/help when asked. With a community of ~200 or whatever people we should be working to help each other and the future of what is to become a game. Bickering on the forum, talking in circles, and seeing little actually change isn't good for anyone.

Edited by APE

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On 9/10/2019 at 9:12 PM, Deioth said:

Hopefully, this assessment will be taken to heart, and a serious overhaul of these systems will be worked on.

I like all of your ideas and would prefer much of them to what we have but you are basically asking them to overhaul massive parts of the design into something entirely different. Might make for a better experience but the resources required, assuming they can even do it, seems very unrealistic. Not sure how many times they've changed the passive system but it is essentially the same as it was years ago. Either they don't have the team to take it in another direction or they simply like it and are going full in no matter what. Plenty of games go this way and then have major changes post launch that divide the community even more. While most AAA games have huge populations and can suffer from dropping a load of players, something as small as Crowfall is intended to be might not recover. That's their gamble. I gave them a bit of money but their companies future is their responsibility. Good luck is all I can say.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

*snip*

Ape, I'm not sure what to say that I haven't driven into the ground with a few others.  The core concern we have with passive training you seem to share, but you seem to be dismissing crafting issues we put forward.  They need to resolve them.  The most significant issue right now as that crafting requires too much time in it before anything can really be made of real value.  The economy can help, once it exists, but as is new players are driven away and those giving it the time necessary can't really make anything worth it until near max.  You effectively need the skill to succeed rolls of 15+ experimentation points and use blue mats or it's not worth it.

And yes, gear makes a difference.  You can tell.  I've died in < 3 seconds from a geared ranger in wartribe gear.  That same ranger took at least three times as long to die with an alpha warrior and archer focusing him hard both in good wartribe (Illusionist on both for damage boosts, too, if you were curious, so it's not a discipline issue, either).  We've had 6+ people alpha strike one guy, all in wartribe, them geared, and he will take 10+ seconds to kill.  That many doing the same to me, that are geared, in my wartribe?  My healers don't even realize I took damage before I'm dead.  In other cases, we alpha strike someone also in wartribe?  They die.  They actually die and in an appropriate amount of time.  How much of that is also the combat passive tree I cannot be sure, but there's is a clear and noticeable difference when we fight players in wartribe vs crafted.

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7 hours ago, DocTarius said:

 just the other day me and a single group had to play the ninja game just to try and capture outposts because a group of 10 HAX rolled over us like dried wheat.

It's been a secret goal of ours to be considered the 'dried wheat of Crowfall'. We just won the game, fellas.

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57 minutes ago, Deioth said:

Ape, I'm not sure what to say that I haven't driven into the ground with a few others.  The core concern we have with passive training you seem to share, but you seem to be dismissing crafting issues we put forward.  They need to resolve them.  The most significant issue right now as that crafting requires too much time in it before anything can really be made of real value.  The economy can help, once it exists, but as is new players are driven away and those giving it the time necessary can't really make anything worth it until near max.  You effectively need the skill to succeed rolls of 15+ experimentation points and use blue mats or it's not worth it.

I didn't go over this discussion too heavily so maybe this has been mentioned but how quickly should someone be able to make something of value and what does that mean? Do you mean anything at all? Blue, Green, Legendary? Why do you need 15+ exp points with blue mats? What difference does that make? Someone coming in fresh should be what percent as effective as someone that's been in a month, 6 months, 2 years? How quickly should they be at 25-50-75-100% as effective as someone maxed?

Quote

And yes, gear makes a difference.  You can tell.  I've died in < 3 seconds from a geared ranger in wartribe gear.  That same ranger took at least three times as long to die with an alpha warrior and archer focusing him hard both in good wartribe (Illusionist on both for damage boosts, too, if you were curious, so it's not a discipline issue, either).  We've had 6+ people alpha strike one guy, all in wartribe, them geared, and he will take 10+ seconds to kill.  That many doing the same to me, that are geared, in my wartribe?  My healers don't even realize I took damage before I'm dead.  In other cases, we alpha strike someone also in wartribe?  They die.  They actually die and in an appropriate amount of time.  How much of that is also the combat passive tree I cannot be sure, but there's is a clear and noticeable difference when we fight players in wartribe vs crafted.

Gear certainly makes a difference. They've made stats > skill for the most part. However, there are lots of factors in play.

Rangers from what I understand are somewhat broken and so are other classes/promos/powers/disciplines etc. As they fix/balance things randomly, I don't really value any example unless you know specifically what each side is bringing.

You can assume a lot but facts are better. If you want ACE to change things, they likely need real data to work with. As much as they claim to gain from our playing/testing, not sure they actually notice specifics unless they are spelled out in bold letters, a video is included, and we basically do the work for them. Some of the Q&A comments make it seem like they are obviously to some of the issues that have happened in the past and or are still on going, despite the community collectively being aware.

As I sort of pointed out above, Wartribe geared players shouldn't be competing with maxed tier crafted players. This makes zero sense if you take a step back.

New players should be getting their feet wet and going up against other Wartribe players that also lack training and better vessels/gear. Problem is we don't have the setup for this. It's everyone in one pot outside of GR. Ideally there would be a campaign with Wartribe-green gear, a blue only vessel/gear campaign, and then legendary and below option. Just for examples. Then you would be up against players that have somewhat the same access to everything. As you progress be it passive training or whatever, you move on to higher risk/reward campaigns that have higher entry requirements or at least limitations. If someone in Wartribe wants to go up against Legendary, so be it, but there should be an option for Wartribe vs Wartribe only.

If a Ranger or insert anything is God Mode once a certain threshold is passed, then ya that needs to be addressed but they don't seem focused on balancing much at the moment. So again as I mentioned above, you all are going into a PRE-ALPHA TEST expecting a GAME experience. This is just silly IMO. It is broken and will remain so for a long time. Before they "fix" many things they will likely be focused on putting more broken systems in. Will get worse before it gets better. Going back and basically starting at step one for crafting and passive training is likely never going to happen.

Crafting does need some minor to major tweaks to ease players in and let them stat contributing faster, but it could change drastically once other things come online, things are balanced, we have more players active, etc.

This will likely never be a game where you come in and within a weekend/month or short period be up to par with those that have been around a while. Just not the design they want. People used to that will needed to adapt or move on. Saying anything but blue or better is pointless tells me that your wants and ACE's design don't align. If that was intended then there wouldn't be anything below blue. Wartribe gear wouldn't exist. Seems like you might have unrealistic expectations from ACE's plan on top of the state of development and what is available.

Edited by APE

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34 minutes ago, APE said:

Crafting does need some minor to major tweaks to ease players in and let them stat contributing faster, but it could change drastically once other things come online, things are balanced, we have more players active, etc.

Not having any semblance of economy/auction house/marketplace really hurts the crafting/resource loops. Then you take RNG drops added that invalidates low/mid level crafting and then you throw in time gated offline skills being weighted towards crafting/resources and its just too brutal for many new players to be drawn into the game. 

I would hope ACE focuses on an economy to start and just go back to 10x skills until more of the game is fleshed out. Reactive changes like the added rng gear drops is just doing more harm then good since it only treats the symptoms.

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18 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

its just too brutal for many new players to be drawn into the game. 

I agree that faster training or just handing us training would be better for the small community. It's a poor choice by ACE to treat this like a game when it isn't.

Speeding up training or giving it too us seems extremely easy on their end and I don't see any drawn back with the current state of development. Besides not gaining whatever unrealistic data they might be.

However, if people can't handle a pre-alpha and all its glory, that's on them. Clearly ACE isn't concerned about growing the population or retaining players. If people find a pre-alpha brutal then they should find something that makes them happy in the meantime. Not that the final product will be better for them, but at least it will be the final product.

Sucks that some come in blindly not realizing what is going on, but shouldn't be too difficult to find out after the fact. Then it's their move.

Those hoping to drastically change the game design at this point are out of luck. Tweaking settings during development and redoing systems are no where the same.

With ~200 players around I don't see them focusing on the economy itself but hopefully other systems go live that will make up the economy eventually.

 

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14 hours ago, DocTarius said:

 

People from Vanguard are coming over from Euro, and vice versa, in wartribe gear and contributing in a meaningful way. 

But let's go past that for a second, this isn't about you guys being competitive, it's about you wanting to be equivalent, in a matter of weeks.

You don't have to have equivalent everything in order to be competitive. Unless of course your guild is the only one on your faction, then you're going to have trouble. But that was your choice.

To be competitive, numbers really matter in this game - if gear is equal they matter a lot. But Group comps, positioning, choosing your targets and timing to get numerical advantages if possible - they can let people with not the shiniest gear win fights against better geared people.

Gear is important, but you don't have the shiniest gear to win all the time. You go on about experimentation points - do you really, and truly believe that one person have 10% more crit damage is going to make the duel a blow out? Or how about 8 percent fire damage on same gear types?

You could have amazing gear and have a terrible group comp or class choice and discipline choices, or bad luck, and still get wrecked.

 

 

This is less about saying your wrong and more about questioning your assumptions.

You think a new guild should be competitive with highest performing guilds within weeks, working essentially alone - in a game that is designed to force people to have to collaborate and not being able to do everything by themselves, or everything in general, right away.

 

 

So your argument is taking a guild that is combat passively trained and rolling around in groups with other geared Balance players in W and HoA and comparing them to people without combat passives and aren't being buffered by a group of people that are combat passively trained and geared? Sound logic. 

Nobody has said anything about being equivalent. You certainly like to put words in peoples mouths. Being baseline competitive is nowhere near to saying equivalent. I don't think once anyone has mentioned crafting epic-legendary things for ourselves

. I do believe everyone has mentioned Rare quality which is pretty much a refined step-up from War Tribe Gear, to be stat specific for your class. 

You are taking one stat and comparing it against one stat. When you look at it with a microscope yes it doesn't look that bad. But when you look at the whole details page and it is 15% or better above, is it still a 15% base increase? No. 15% less damage vs someone that is doing 15% more damage to you in return does not = 15%... So yes, it does make a large difference. 

We are about two months in (just the guild - I've been passively training a lot longer and still not through a craft tree for the last points). A month and a half in and still unable to craft anything better than war tribe gear because of how Harvesting and Crafting work in conjunction with each other. You don't get enough materials to waste crafting poorly made socks gear that you get better gear from war tribes anyway. 

 

 

12 hours ago, DocTarius said:

Well, what else can I do when you guys keep making asanine statements. Like this ones you just made.

How is pointing out how you obviously are having a hard time reading statements and blowing them out of proportion, asinine? Read what people write and stop adding words or using words out of context to propel whatever you are trying to spin into your favor. 

12 hours ago, DocTarius said:

Maybe, I'm sure a not-insignificant portion of players don't like it. But you literally have no meaningful data on why people stop playing. ACE might, but I don't think they do uninstall exit interviews. 

Have literally had people quit from our guild because of passive training - new players. Have had people from out of nowhere say they are having a hard time with CF because of passive training. Happened today when we weren't even playing or streaming CF. Guy found us playing AA and mentioned he was playing (unprovoked) CF but him and his guild were having a hard time because of how gated CF is. You can shut your eyes as much as you want but the evidence is out there. 

 

12 hours ago, DocTarius said:

And how many of them are trying to play in a faction by themselves or don't bother forming a sizeable guild at all.

lol....Solution. Everyone join a zerg. Good job. 

 

12 hours ago, DocTarius said:

I love how everybody else thinks Clams and WB don't try very hard. We have people literally spending 8 hours a day in this custardin game. Most nights we are still begging people to log in. I mean, you act like WB people never outnumbered. HAX has tons of people - just the other day me and a single group had to play the ninja game just to try and capture outposts because a group of 10 HAX rolled over us like dried wheat.

Irrelevant and nobody has said anything about how hard WB or Clams try, don't think I have even mentioned Clams once in this thread. I'm sure you have your own challenges to overcome. Don't forget we played on Balance for a session and know how deep HaX can roll at times. This isn't news to anyone. 

12 hours ago, DocTarius said:

Almost all of your gear problems could be solved by simply buying/trading vessels and gear from other guilds like WB, HoA, HAX, Clams, etc.

Going to keep it in faction for now, which is what we have been doing. So your assumptions of us not getting help, as I have said previously is utterly wrong. But keep making those ridiculous assumptions. 

~~~

12 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I feel this is a core problem that is causing a lot of other issues down the line. They added rng drops recently and have not yet addressed crafting. Not having a working marketplace/economy isn't helping matter any.

This is definitely the main issue. There really is no reason for newer crafters/players to progress efficiently with the current system with how crafting works and harvesting works. Everything is very back-loaded. 

Edited by Vunak

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Reading over this thread, though If certainly missed some I'd like to approach a point made by @APE in a slightly different fashion.

You are experiencing not simply a problem but problems, which are the effects, not the causes.  So what Ace needs as far as information is causes, because they cannot control effects directly, only causes.  

Take your example where you are dieing super fast and someone else is living for quite a long time. Saying this is simply gear, stats, and passive training is a unidimensional analysis.   I find it doubtful you were playing mirrored setups just different qualities, I'm talking same race/class/promo/disc.   Some of the setups you can get in the game will give you enough invulnerable/barrier/heal up time that you in 10 seconds may have only had in effect that 3 second window to do damage.     Then you have classes like rangers that are just broken currently and they scale very improperly with their gear.  

My point being that breaking down all the minutia in an experience you have offers the best chance for ACE to identify what small pieces they need to tweak for the top end of the system to function.  Generalized top down solutions to problems are hard work, a gamble; most of the time if you didn't formulate your problems correctly, which is not a simple thing, you won't even solve your problem this way.  You can also be sure you created a myriad of new ones.  

I don't believe we are at the point of testing where balancing all these things should take priority.   It makes it significantly less rewarding to play the game right now, adding in frostweaver wont make my experience better than a good round of balance changes.  However if you get the game balanced now, then start adding many more core or even periphery elements you are forced to double back and rebalance again.  In an MMO balance is forever a challenge, a limit if you will, that is never achieved but approached.  

In regards to passive training, I agree it is problematic in that it incentivizes a player to leave for a week or month and come back when they can "do more".  It has the virtue though of equally rewarding people who no life the game to those who more casually play.  I can't be alone in playing an MMO and stressing every moment I'm not on working on my progression I am falling behind.  When we get proper balance and catch up mechanics, I do think the system will function beautifully .


-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

qliewl5.png

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PRE ALPHA, pre alpha, ALPHA PRE, alpha alpha...

 

Find interesting that the zergs assembled as soon as pre alpha had a gold badge vs a silver one. 

 

Stop and look in the mirror. Who's playing it liked a completed game?

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On 9/15/2019 at 11:14 AM, DocTarius said:

"There is no way to say this without coming off as condescending, but you continue to put words in our mouths and hear things we aren't saying."

Well, what else can I do when you guys keep making asanine statements. Like this ones you just made.

"We can tell if someone has good crafted gear or not." -- No, you literally cannot.

"The timegating in the passive tree is actively pushing away new players and needs to be addressed through various means; arguably this should include a supplementary active training component." -- Maybe, I'm sure a not-insignificant portion of players don't like it. But you literally have no meaningful data on why people stop playing. ACE might, but I don't think they do uninstall exit interviews. 

"And if the wave of new players that show up to try Beta feel like they can't compete or catch up because of time gating or an inadequate backloaded design with crafting and give up within days/weeks, I hope we don't have to say" -- And how many of them are trying to play in a faction by themselves or don't bother forming a sizeable guild at all.

"We'll field 12 people between Eldritch and Spectre and be 80% of online Order, take a fort, and Clams or Winterblades alone bring 20 without even trying and that's an entirely different issue we already accept the reality of)." --- I love how everybody else thinks Clams and WB don't try very hard. We have people literally spending 8 hours a day in this custardin game. Most nights we are still begging people to log in. I mean, you act like WB people never outnumbered. HAX has tons of people - just the other day me and a single group had to play the ninja game just to try and capture outposts because a group of 10 HAX rolled over us like dried wheat.

 

For some inexplicable reason you guys, as a new guild, decided to go hard and mostly alone. But glad you accepted the reality of that. But seriously that going alone thing is what has compounded your newness issues --- 

Almost all of your gear problems could be solved by simply buying/trading vessels and gear from other guilds like WB, HoA, HAX, Clams, etc.

I've gotten every single damn one of my rare drop crafting items from other people in my faction or off vendors.

 

 

Their feedback is still valuable even if you dont agree with it. Yes Order has a population issue but if it wasnt for my clan also going at it alone in Order they wouldn't have upgraded gear period.    The biggest thing I've seen so far is that there is no reason to craft white , green or blue quality gear that isnt from a maxed vessel.  You're better off going mob drop at that point.  Front loading the passive skill training a bit more could help in that area .

So this was from the first campaign since  the inventory wipe & vessel wipe.    The top 2 swords are mob dropped .  The bottom sword is a player crafted max blacksmith white vessel with no bonus from the keep , crafting armor or jewelry .  We rolled that one as all stats to see if we could get the crit healing up and to see where we could get the support power  up to in comparison to the mob drops.  So when rolling these as a max white you'll get 1 stat to max if you're lucky.   Why bother with whites or greens when crafting? Blues wouldn't be much better just a little bit easier due to the higher quality.   Player crafted green & whites need a boost  over mob drop. The extra durability is meaningless when this stuff drops like mad.   Currently there is no place for a new blacksmith & a max blacksmith is just going to gear himself up properly & not waste time in this tier.
qLEeqfA.png
 

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7 hours ago, MrErad said:

The biggest thing I've seen so far is that there is no reason to craft white , green or blue quality gear that isnt from a maxed vessel.  You're better off going mob drop at that point.

This is a problem resulting from ACE changing core design and adding RNG gear drops better then low/mid level crafting at a late stage to address issues with folks unable to gear up decently in order to be viable in pvp.  Vicious circle of ACE changing core design then reacting to negative results with more changes this past year or so now. Wild ride, but the ending is disappointing. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 6:46 PM, BTBill said:

It's been a secret goal of ours to be considered the 'dried wheat of Crowfall'. We just won the game, fellas.

You should endeavor to become the shredded wheat of Crowfall and rename your guild SWOLE.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 7:25 PM, APE said:

Snip

It's possible part of the issue is exacerbated by the fact wartribe gear can be as decent as it can be.  But, that doesn't change the inherent issue with crafted gear in general in that you require so much assembly success and so many experimentation points to craft stats worth a damn and that it needs to be blue or better to even be worth the effort in the first place.  MrErad's later response seems to attest to that.  The system at its core is amazing.  The depth put into it makes it so much more enjoyable and engaging than anything like WoW.  But, the implementation needs a few more iterations for sure.

The disparities are real and noticeable, regardless of balance issues like how OP ranger left click is right now there's still the fact that I'll take a Neckbreaker for 3k+ but then do less than 1K to someone in leather with mine, damage buffs active.  The difference is real and the overhaul needs to allow for a viable competitive level to be met with green mats and no additives at an intermediate crafting level.  Being able to direct the stats is a valuable start, but the base aren't strong enough.  I can't imagine it would be that hard for them to cap out stat potentials on wartribe gear (capped at about current levels) and lift those caps for crafted by a fair margin.  Even master blacksmiths should be able to make amazing green gear.  Precisely how long it should take to get to a level of viability for crafters, I'm not sure.  Maybe a month?  But it should take dedication of, say, 6-8 months to cap out just the crafting aspects of any given crafting tree, and another 2 to finish off thralls.  Seems fair enough to me, just throwing numbers out there, since this seems to be about where things would be if you consider our faster passive training.

Once population is a thing and they can field multiple campaigns, my guess is they'll have "newbie" R7 campaigns that block you from importing epic or better gear and are white vessel only and may even restrict passive training (like, it disables trained nodes past a certain level).  Veteran campaigns will go up to R10 without restrictions (but may require a certain amount of passive training completed).  And then there would be the Dregs which would only be joinable at vessel level 30 and with a warning or something.  As a brand new guild, we clearly shouldn't be forced to go up against Winterblades et al who are all minimum blue across the board (and many with significant combat passives trained). But, as things are now, all we can do is share our experience.  It strikes me that ACE has not had the fortune of hearing an experience like this, certainly not at this level of detail, considering the responses we've received rather outright dismissing us have had a tendency to summarize as "l2p newbs, your fault for playing the empty faction, it's not the game it's you" as opposed to meaningful discourse or feedback.  You seem to have a more open mind than some so I appreciate it (but consider reading the full thread before your next reply, eh?)

8 hours ago, MrErad said:


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a8a41b68b002c1a4fedf4fa89db292bf.gif

"The Wet Noodle" custard perfect dude.

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33 minutes ago, Deioth said:

It strikes me that ACE has not had the fortune of hearing an experience like this

Not the first or the last. What strikes me is there was dev interaction in this one.

Edited by mystafyi

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3 hours ago, Deioth said:

But, the implementation needs a few more iterations for sure.

Clearly this is planned but we will have to see how it goes. As they have entire systems still MIA, I foresee them adding those in before tweaking or completely redoing what's already in. I can only hope that someone at ACE reads our feedback, understands it, and passes it on. As there surprisingly was a dev response early on, I have some faith in the process. However, the team actually agreeing or being able to do any of it is another story.

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The disparities are real and noticeable, regardless of balance issues like how OP ranger left click is right now there's still the fact that I'll take a Neckbreaker for 3k+ but then do less than 1K to someone in leather with mine, damage buffs active.  The difference is real and the overhaul needs to allow for a viable competitive level to be met with green mats and no additives at an intermediate crafting level.  Being able to direct the stats is a valuable start, but the base aren't strong enough.  I can't imagine it would be that hard for them to cap out stat potentials on wartribe gear (capped at about current levels) and lift those caps for crafted by a fair margin.  Even master blacksmiths should be able to make amazing green gear.  Precisely how long it should take to get to a level of viability for crafters, I'm not sure.  Maybe a month?  But it should take dedication of, say, 6-8 months to cap out just the crafting aspects of any given crafting tree, and another 2 to finish off thralls.  Seems fair enough to me, just throwing numbers out there, since this seems to be about where things would be if you consider our faster passive training.

I'm not a fan of systems entirely built on the vertical stat gear grind. Horizontal is much better IMO. Vertical systems are just boring to me. Get the most stats, profit. There isn't a lot of depth or choice to it.

They should expand on the trees and some adjustment could go a long way.

Instead of compounding, I'd prefer they break up crafting into tiers. Might be some overlap with what you were getting at.

Ex: Green Tier - A maxed green crafter could crank out top quality green gear that is decently better then green wartribe. Costs good deal less then Blue when it comes to materials/dust. Exp points have a cap of some sort but overall a maxed green crafter could produce good gear fairly quick and easily that balances with drops. Crafted gear being able to have more stat options/slots and additives so that gaining crafted gear would be valued over just running with drops. 

This would go on for each tier of gear/vessels. Instead of compounding where you just get better and better overall, it splits it up so players can choose how good they want to be at any particular tier. Need to complete 75% of Green to move on to Blue, 50% of Blue to move on, etc. If resources/additives are balanced, it might be better return to make high quality Green instead of mediocre Blue. The time and resource requirement making moving up the ranks costly and not something you just rush into day 1. So a 100% maxed crafter wouldn't be in an entire different league. Their green gear would be just as good as a newer players maxed out green but they would have the option to make other tiers of gear.

Something else I'd like to see is all Crafts split up like combat/harvesting that require specialization and choice. Ex: Helm, chest, rings, bow, pistol, two handed, components, etc. Considering how important specialization and choice were to be initially, I'm surprised howlackluster and repetitive much of the design is. Maybe it's because I've played Albion Online in the recent past, but branching out as specific as possible seems like a better fit.

Then we can have people actually be "All Tier Leather Boot Master Crafter" or "Green & Blue Boot Crafter" where alts can't compete as well vs an active economy and a healthy population. This could be done by having a General Green Tier with the assembly/speed/exp options and then moving a step further applying those to Boots specifically. Similar to Combat training into Pistols. Isn't a massive difference, but if you choose to go that far then there is a slight boost. Could be additional assembly/speed or dust reduction, chance to return resources while crafting and other options that are more about crafting itself and less about the actual outcome. This would be perfect for Active Training. You passively train the general Green Tier then when you craft Boots you become better and in return it becomes quicker/easier/cheaper to produce Green Boots.

Would be interesting to see Stat choices become more of a thing with crafting as well. Ex: Green only has access to basic stats (stre/dex/health) and resists. Blue adds in arm pen, crit dmg, range. Legendary has more "horizontal" options like run speed, lifesteal, stealth detection, far sight, etc. With each tier adding 1-2 stat slots.

Moving up tiers would be more about adding options instead of just straight +5 Str to +100 Str. This could make the gear tiers shallow while providing options to builds. Going further, maybe Blue has a higher Crit Dmg cap then Legendary? Where mixing gear qualities becomes a thing. If you get enough Crit Dmg from a Vessel & Leveling then maybe you don't need Blue Boots and save up until you can have Legendary with Stealth Detection as you want to run anti-stealth.

What I don't like is seeing the same tired stack all stats to victory design like every other gear treadmill game. No real choice or risk/reward. Someone that can 3 shot from 60 range should be made out of paper. The vertical stat design and balance issues make this painful. Maxing out stats should be difficult and especially a good chunk that matter. Having high arm, arm pen, resists, crit, health, etc without really sacrificing anything seems like an issue.

There are tons of ways they could take their good foundation. Doubt these things will happen anytime soon but over time these types of changes could spice up everything.

FYI I don't actively play much and much of what I know is watching streams/videos and reading feedback along with my time on Test here and there. So I might be completely missing how some things work. What I do know is they have a lot of work to do and it isn't going to change overnight. In the mean time people should provide feedback and expect little in return, but overall I doubt these discussions will end up any different as everyone believe they know best.

 

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Once population is a thing and they can field multiple campaigns, my guess is they'll have "newbie" R7 campaigns that block you from importing epic or better gear and are white vessel only and may even restrict passive training (like, it disables trained nodes past a certain level).  Veteran campaigns will go up to R10 without restrictions (but may require a certain amount of passive training completed).  And then there would be the Dregs which would only be joinable at vessel level 30 and with a warning or something.  As a brand new guild, we clearly shouldn't be forced to go up against Winterblades et al who are all minimum blue across the board (and many with significant combat passives trained). But, as things are now, all we can do is share our experience. 

The ability to have campaigns running with countless options is one of the main reasons I backed this concept. If they aren't able to provide enough varied formats to match the varied types of players out there then this likely won't get very far. If they can't come up with more creative rulesets they can at least do the bare minimum of creating some sort of tiered format so it is at least enjoyable in its simplicity for new and old players. This is a real strength of competitive games. Even if a MOBA has 1 map with 1 way to play, at least they have ranks so it is enjoyable for all.

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It strikes me that ACE has not had the fortune of hearing an experience like this, certainly not at this level of detail, considering the responses we've received rather outright dismissing us have had a tendency to summarize as "l2p newbs, your fault for playing the empty faction, it's not the game it's you" as opposed to meaningful discourse or feedback. 

Not sure anything you or anyone else has mentioned is new. Pretty sure I'm just repeating myself for the nth time. Seems like people come in and accept or move on. Goes quiet then a new wave comes in and repeats. As training hasn't been wiped for a while and several changes have occurred in the last year or so, the current pool is noticing the issue a lot more then in the past. Passive training still doing the same thing it did in the start for the most part though, just with a lot of other unfinished systems in tow now.

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You seem to have a more open mind than some so I appreciate it (but consider reading the full thread before your next reply, eh?)

I backed this because I want to play a good game that I'll enjoy but I realize what I enjoy isn't universal. I also believe this thing has a long ways to go despite some claiming it is better then AAA released games and could launch today. I treat it as a pre-alpha that is more broken then not. Also am not really participating much at this point as I don't see a point for myself.

I'd love to have the time to read paragraph after paragraph but the little I do read and then the wall of text I respond with tends to eat up my time. Will just be repeating the conversation in a month or two anyway. ;)

Edited by APE

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3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Not the first or the last. What strikes me is there was dev interaction in this one.

I wonder if lacking a dev tracker is a technical limitation or so their lack of interaction isn't so obvious :ph34r:

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