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Deioth

The New Guild Experience - The Passive and Crafting Problem

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15 hours ago, APE said:

I wonder if lacking a dev tracker is a technical limitation or so their lack of interaction isn't so obvious :ph34r:

LOL don't get me going about that topic. Technical limitation? That cannot be their excuse after a year, just not possible for a software dev team.  I am still waiting for @Pann to update... 

On 7/22/2019 at 12:42 PM, Pann said:

The Dev Tracker got bjorked when we were making some big changes to the website. Now that the dust has (mostly) settled, I've started an internal discussion about if/when we might bring it back. I'll keep you posted as the conversation evolves. 

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19 hours ago, APE said:

Clearly this is planned but we will have to see how it goes. As they have entire systems still MIA, I foresee them adding those in before tweaking or completely redoing what's already in. I can only hope that someone at ACE reads our feedback, understands it, and passes it on. As there surprisingly was a dev response early on, I have some faith in the process. However, the team actually agreeing or being able to do any of it is another story.

Indeed, with so much yet to be properly implemented, and a proper balance patch being rather overdue given the static nature of the meta (feels like W, HoA, and Clams is about 95% Crusader, Earthkeeper, Archer/Brigand, Inquisitor/Fanatic, and Alpha Warrior) it's an obvious waiting game.  Since we're pending Frostweaver, Dregs, and guild bank as the big three next major pieces it's unlikely they can focus much on a tweak to crafting and other systems again for some time.  All we can hope is that we've given them the feedback they need, especially considering the Dev reply giving me a serious "S-senpai... uwu" moment to reference a meme.

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*snip*

Indeed, the passive systems feel like they deserve more in-depth attention on the whole.  That is why some of the ideas in the original post included consideration of tier restricting as well as specialized crafting trees for components, weapons, armor, and more.  It definitely feels like a vertical progression right now, like a lit fuse leading to a bottle rocket and suddenly you shoot straight up before another leveling out.  It just takes a few months for the fuse to hit the powder.

I'm really liking intent and creativity behind your ideas of tier focus and cost reduction and stat spread and restricting stats to tier maximums.  Some of these maybe won't work in practice as offered, but others would go a long way to keeping things horizontal while further expanding how deep this already excellent the core crafting system is.  Like, maybe you wouldn't necessarily be a great green boot maker, you'd just be a great leather armor smith while your guildie might be a great leather component crafter.  Tier focused crafters seems novel but I'm not sure how well that could be implemented without getting convoluted, so simply requiring a certain amount of or point in the passive tree for a particular craft would simply unlock use of that rarity may be a decent compromise.  Alternatively, the specialization craft trees could give special bonuses for rarity a bit similar to harvest specializations, or maybe material type would be the better choice there?  Not only are you a master leather armor smith, you're a legend with soft hide in particular, perhaps?  Regardless of their chosen route, they definitely need to play around with how to front load experimentation points, how points used adjust stats, how risk and experimentation improves stats, how to spread out available stats to craft (because another meta issue seems to be there are only a couple of "good" stats; for example, it's only worth getting crit resist on armor apparently?) and in ensuring new and intermediate crafters can still make things of value.  If ~4 weeks ago (as we've been playing ~2 months) we all could have at least made greens comparable to decent world blue drops with a couple notches higher for the base stat (weapon damage, armor amount) then our new player retention and our experience would be markedly improved since we'd at least feel like we're achieving a sense of progression, even if we'd only be minimally competitive at that point rather than just about now finally approaching the top of the cliff.

Personally, I think a good place to start tweaking and testing would be to heavily front load experimentation points and then require assembly and experimentation success chance for rarer mats and for experimentation risk.  Points themselves would be more additive while high risk would be multiplicative.  Risk and rarity would determine how many points can be applied to a single stat and increase the caps each stat can hit with a roll.  Properly implemented, master crafters would be able to create gear with great focused stats and decent secondary stats given how the caps would work and the multiplicative nature of risky rolls.  This way, newer crafters can make good one stat focused gear with some secondary bonuses while master crafters can make excellent focused gear and great multi-stat gear.

19 hours ago, APE said:

The ability to have campaigns running with countless options is one of the main reasons I backed this concept. If they aren't able to provide enough varied formats to match the varied types of players out there then this likely won't get very far. If they can't come up with more creative rulesets they can at least do the bare minimum of creating some sort of tiered format so it is at least enjoyable in its simplicity for new and old players. This is a real strength of competitive games. Even if a MOBA has 1 map with 1 way to play, at least they have ranks so it is enjoyable for all.

 

I think they'll manage.  With proper marketing and a solid core system, this game will fill a niche for PvPers that wanted more immediate substance, action, and direction than EVE and that doesn't involve looking at a cosmic void with a spaceship in it 99% of the time.

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Not sure anything you or anyone else has mentioned is new. Pretty sure I'm just repeating myself for the nth time. Seems like people come in and accept or move on. Goes quiet then a new wave comes in and repeats. As training hasn't been wiped for a while and several changes have occurred in the last year or so, the current pool is noticing the issue a lot more then in the past. Passive training still doing the same thing it did in the start for the most part though, just with a lot of other unfinished systems in tow now.
 

Maybe not new, but the extensive and substantive nature of the feedback being far more than the typical "Passive training is something about socks" I most certainly hope is appreciated and will go a long way to giving them a much fuller picture.  Half the reason we went Order wasn't just for hardcore mode or to introduce Player Three to the clearly growing stale dynamics of HAX and co getting a good win sometimes, it was also to try and experience this game in as much of a from-the-ground-up perspective as possible.  We're experiencing a lot of what brand new players post launch risk experiencing and hopefully the feedback goes a long way to significant improvements as resources become available for them.

Edited by Deioth

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None of this matters unless it makes it to the private forum between the Devs and the high dollar players. 

 

CROWFALL DEEP STATE

Edited by Darksun_

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As a newly formed Guild we can perfectly understand the frustration Deioth is describing.

The current crafting system is to be thinked over, when i see comments such as with a better vessel, a crafting armor and jewelry you will acheive better crafts, please explain how do you get those items when all you can craft when you have limited passive tree is useless crap? No matter how much you farm, how much you craft, you will always produce crap. Let alone that you can't collect quality ressources to start with.

We have accepted that as a pre alpha game but i don't believe that this system is viable on a finished product, and before even thinking to introduce all the new stuff that was presented last week for February release i believe that this must be adressed as a priority cause that is the chore of the game mechanic and economy.

 

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On 10/1/2019 at 5:59 AM, Sylvanie said:

As a newly formed Guild we can perfectly understand the frustration Deioth is describing.

The current crafting system is to be thinked over, when i see comments such as with a better vessel, a crafting armor and jewelry you will acheive better crafts, please explain how do you get those items when all you can craft when you have limited passive tree is useless crap? No matter how much you farm, how much you craft, you will always produce crap. Let alone that you can't collect quality ressources to start with.

We have accepted that as a pre alpha game but i don't believe that this system is viable on a finished product, and before even thinking to introduce all the new stuff that was presented last week for February release i believe that this must be adressed as a priority cause that is the chore of the game mechanic and economy.

 

When you make it, though, it feels so good.  It's just a damn cliff.  Hopefully you stick it out, the game needs players.

 

I certainly hope they're willing to pull a couple folks to revamp the passive tree and get an active system in to supplement things for us to test for a while before Dregs hits.  It'd really help.

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On 10/1/2019 at 2:59 AM, Sylvanie said:

when i see comments such as with a better vessel, a crafting armor and jewelry you will acheive better crafts, please explain how do you get those items

Why not purchase them from a veteran crafter? 


tiPrpwh.png

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On 10/6/2019 at 9:48 PM, miraluna said:

Why not purchase them from a veteran crafter? 

When there is a working economy this might be more viable for newer groups. But currently its not really. You either end up having to pay a large amount of Chaos Embers (for usually junk non-additive vessels), something new groups don't get a whole ton of or bring your own materials, which new groups aren't going to get a ton of because they are new and don't have the harvesting passives done to even get the minerals they would need from farming motherloads for those vessels. 

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36 minutes ago, Vunak said:

When there is a working economy

Part of the problem here is that ACE is designing a game for the launch state, and that will hopefully have longevity in the economic systems. Playtesters focus on what is happening right now in the testing environment, and it's hard to extrapolate to how it will play at launch. I think it's good to have a system where veteran crafters will be selling to new players, but as you mentioned it's not functioning as intended yet (gold sinks etc).


tiPrpwh.png

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2 hours ago, miraluna said:

Part of the problem here is that ACE is designing a game for the launch state, and that will hopefully have longevity in the economic systems. Playtesters focus on what is happening right now in the testing environment, and it's hard to extrapolate to how it will play at launch.

Its awfully hard to extrapolate how the economy will do in CF since there is no economy or systems for an economy currently. 0 times 10 is still 0. Sure we all can play 'what if' games, but to be fair folks can only focus on what is actually available and not make believe systems that are not even developed yet. 

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That is another subject to be adressed.

How do you get a fair and viable economy going when you don't have a general Auction House in place. It's nice and fancy to craft your own vendor, but pretty much useless as all viable spots are already filled.

On top of that it's a big fri***g mess, you have to check every vendor spot again and again to find (or more oftent don't find) an item you're looking for.

Again that is a pre alpha and we can understand, but it's not a viable nor fair system for the future.

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6 hours ago, Sylvanie said:

That is another subject to be adressed.

How do you get a fair and viable economy going when you don't have a general Auction House in place. It's nice and fancy to craft your own vendor, but pretty much useless as all viable spots are already filled.

On top of that it's a big fri***g mess, you have to check every vendor spot again and again to find (or more oftent don't find) an item you're looking for.

Again that is a pre alpha and we can understand, but it's not a viable nor fair system for the future.

Make a name for yourself as an x vendor. People will come to your location if the goods and prices are reasonable. 

New players need to have some way to catch up in training. Everyone knows this, and we will have to let ACE know if what they do is a viable solution to the passive problem.

 

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4 hours ago, Zatch said:

New players need to have some way to catch up in training. Everyone knows this, and we will have to let ACE know if what they do is a viable solution to the passive problem.

 

The catch up mechanic for passives is not scheduled to be worked on until after launch. There will be no way for players to indicate viability in this regard until then. Not having any economy just exacerbates the problem of skill deficiency. If ACE fixes this issue then we can see how skills come into play. If not, then nobody will be playing to care.

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