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BaronLovat

Various Questions for Dev's about Tracks

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I have a few various questions.

Some of these may have been asked, and answered in the past, however information is often hard to find.

 

1: I see there is a reaping track specific to Herbing and Plant Gathering. Does this mean plants can potentially yield higher tier / quality resources in the future?

2: There is currently no track specific to Cooking. If Herbing / Plant Reaping is going to get it's own dedicated track, is there any consideration towards making Cooking a dedicated track?

2a: If Yes to above, does that mean Food could come in a variety of tiers, and will those tiers increase the potency of the food buff / hunger restored?

3: Runemaking as far as Disciplines go, are currently locked to maximum effectiveness of Rare. With the Vessel lock down requirement of equal to or higher tier Disciplines to equip them to a vessel, is there considerations for adding in higher tier Runemaking materials to support Epic and Legendary Discipline crafting.

4: Alchemy is currently only important as far as Philosopher stones, a material that is useless on it's own without a Necromancer to convert it into a commodity that truly affects gameplay. Arguably Toxins and Gathering potions are 'helpful', with the ladder more-so. Does the Dev team plan to incorporate more recipes into Alchemy in the future? 

4a: If Alchemy is getting future recipes, I'd like to propose a few more utility and conversion recipes.

  • Material Tier Upgrade. 'x' quantity of poor - uncommon non-basic material + 'y' dust = 'z' next tier. 
  • Advanced Material Tier Upgrade: 'x' quantity of rare - epic non-basic material + 'y' chaos ember = 'z' next tier.
  • Out of Combat Regen potion. [Not a Health Pot, an OOC Regen pot would naturally disable if attacked/knock down via dizzy into combat]
  • Bulk Empty Flask: 20 Crushed Stone + 10 Ethereal Dust = 30 Empty Flasks

5: Command track is pretty good in it's over-all effectiveness. However the limitation of dropping a passive to gain those buffs, while very worthwhile in largescale PvP, is significantly less so when out farming materials in a smaller group; and even worse so particularly when crafting. Bulk group crafting is quite simply not a thing from my experience [which could be wrong granted] and the number of crafting passives that exist is already forcing hard decisions to be made. Removing another passive for the command buff if you yourself as the Leader want to craft feels incredibly inefficient. I fully understand many counter this by having the command character be on an alt account, or having someone who very nearly never crafts. But as a single account perspective it feels very awkward. Would it be possible & within the Dev team's willingness to incorporate the crafting specific passive effects without requiring the passive to be slotted? Similar to how the Master tier Talents [like Macemanship] were handled.

6: Combat Tracks. The requirement of 75% training in previous tier places the combat training at a statistical disadvantage from my experience. Crafting Tracks produce roughly the same and or in same cases more power gains per time invested compared to Combat Tracks. I have taken into consideration that Crafting Track perks / commodities are consumable and thus need to be replaced, while the effects from Combat don't deteriorate. Even with those facts in mind, Combat Tracks are still not pushing enough importance to over-ride the quicker gratification offered by Crafting Tracks. Is the Dev Team open to incrementally reducing the requirements to progress to the next Combat Track to find a better balance?

That's all my immediate questions regarding Tracks, thanks for the time.

Baron

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BaronRamsay! I think it would be a great move to put in a cooking track as well as tiers for food potency... Just think, if the food was tiered and the potency was RNG determined partially by the chef (skill, gear, buffs, etc) We could literally have Iron Chef cook-offs... would be a great way to spend an afternoon between campaigns, imo.

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On 9/14/2019 at 10:18 PM, BTBill said:

Just think, if the food was tiered and the potency was RNG determined partially by the chef (skill, gear, buffs, etc)

Until manufacturing is a thing, we really, really, do not want this. The fact that all food, food components, and potions have fixed results allows them to stack, and allows components from individual assemblies to be used together in a final assembly.

For now, this is an enormous QoL *buff* to not have food & potion experimentation.

Edited by VaMei

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Hello! Let me see if I can at least answer a few of these points real quick. 

On 9/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, BaronLovat said:

I have a few various questions.

Some of these may have been asked, and answered in the past, however information is often hard to find.

 

1: I see there is a reaping track specific to Herbing and Plant Gathering. Does this mean plants can potentially yield higher tier / quality resources in the future?

 

That's still in the initial plan for plant gathering. Right now, the quality of mats collected from plants are either common or rare depending on the plant but this may (or may not) expand to include all quality tiers in the future. The current amount yielded on harvesting is pretty consistent for all players at the moment, but could potentially change if the reaping skill becomes trainable. 

On 9/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, BaronLovat said:

2: There is currently no track specific to Cooking. If Herbing / Plant Reaping is going to get it's own dedicated track, is there any consideration towards making Cooking a dedicated track?

2a: If Yes to above, does that mean Food could come in a variety of tiers, and will those tiers increase the potency of the food buff / hunger restored?

So this is an interesting question and I'm curious to know what feedback I'll get after I answer this. Initially, we thought about adding a cooking track to the skill tree but ultimately felt that cooking should be considered a secondary crafting group in which all players are able to cook items. The only major gates behind the cooking recipes are tied to the actual stations rather than unlocking these recipes through the skills, disciplines, or other means. There was concern that if we made it a specific track that it wouldn't be very popular and would potentially cause players to have to choose between a major track, like Blacksmithing, for Cooking. 

With that being said though, one of the things I'm really hoping we can get in soon is actual tiers of food and special circumstance outcomes; like maybe all Stoneborns are immune to the effects of alcohol, or maybe Wood Elves get additional benefits from plant-based foods. In addition, maybe some of the additives like seasonings and herbs could also alter the outcome of a recipe. I've got a running list of recipes and new ideas I'd like to get in, but first we gotta hit some of our other major milestones, then we can flesh out the content and systems a bit more. 

On 9/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, BaronLovat said:

3: Runemaking as far as Disciplines go, are currently locked to maximum effectiveness of Rare. With the Vessel lock down requirement of equal to or higher tier Disciplines to equip them to a vessel, is there considerations for adding in higher tier Runemaking materials to support Epic and Legendary Discipline crafting.

I'm wondering if you've come across a bug, or if I'm interpreting your comment incorrectly. Ideally, you should be able to combine disciplines into all tiers, but if there is a piece missing or causing this to not be feasible, that might be a bug. Let me know though and I can either delve a bit further or explain a bit more about our intent for Runemaking in the future.

On 9/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, BaronLovat said:

4: Alchemy is currently only important as far as Philosopher stones, a material that is useless on it's own without a Necromancer to convert it into a commodity that truly affects gameplay. Arguably Toxins and Gathering potions are 'helpful', with the ladder more-so. Does the Dev team plan to incorporate more recipes into Alchemy in the future? 

4a: If Alchemy is getting future recipes, I'd like to propose a few more utility and conversion recipes.

  • Material Tier Upgrade. 'x' quantity of poor - uncommon non-basic material + 'y' dust = 'z' next tier. 
  • Advanced Material Tier Upgrade: 'x' quantity of rare - epic non-basic material + 'y' chaos ember = 'z' next tier.
  • Out of Combat Regen potion. [Not a Health Pot, an OOC Regen pot would naturally disable if attacked/knock down via dizzy into combat]
  • Bulk Empty Flask: 20 Crushed Stone + 10 Ethereal Dust = 30 Empty Flasks

 

Alchemy is a bit lacking at the moment, but we do have lots of plans for future expansions of the crafting system. A lot of the plans we have at the moment are for situations outside of combat. Bulk recipe creation is another thing that we'd like to tackle with the addition of factories, but I have no idea when that will come online. The other suggestions you've made are very similar to a transmutate system that we've talked about internally as "wish list" item. 

 

The other two questions in your post are outside of my wheelhouse, but maybe @thomasblair could answer those?

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3 minutes ago, vkromas said:

So this is an interesting question and I'm curious to know what feedback I'll get after I answer this. Initially, we thought about adding a cooking track to the skill tree but ultimately felt that cooking should be considered a secondary crafting group in which all players are able to cook items.

Long term, after more pressing things are behind you, I'd love to see cooking become its own profession. Now that the recipes are tied to the stations rather than passive skills, the concern that everyone should be able to cook is behind us. That doesn't necessarily mean that some can't cook better than others. Better ingredients, better preparation, better food :Yum:

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59 minutes ago, vkromas said:

So this is an interesting question and I'm curious to know what feedback I'll get after I answer this. Initially, we thought about adding a cooking track to the skill tree but ultimately felt that cooking should be considered a secondary crafting group in which all players are able to cook items.

Personally I would say a big no to building it out in the "training required" direction.

There is more than enough for the dedicated crafter types to do already, with more still to come in the form of stone masonry etc when EK buildings are worth putting in the effort to build.  Ya'll just had to cut swaths out of the early crafting loop to get new players to "minimally viable", so I would hate to see things added that make it harder to achieve that in the form of essentially required food buffs. If they are not interesting, important or essential enough to be expected or required, then they are not going to interesting or important enough to put valuable passive training time into except as a dump value a few years into training. 

I also think food and the skill-less to gather collectibles are a great way to introduce players to the crafting system, without gating yet another thing behind passive training. 

But that's just my opinion

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1 hour ago, vkromas said:

So this is an interesting question and I'm curious to know what feedback I'll get after I answer this.

I don't think it's necessary to give Cooking its own training track.  It already requires a special dedication to become a chef due to the complexity of recipes and the sheer number of ingredients involved.  In the future (when item storage is *solved*) I'd like to see optional ingredients for things like increased duration and/or enhanced buff effects.  Cooking skill could be considered a basic crafting profession, so it could use the basic crafting skills already in the skill tree.  It would reward players for training as a crafter without requiring any further specialization.  I'd also like to see specialized harvesters involved in acquiring special cooking ingredients, similar to how players with the Survivalist rune are the only ones able to create Bloodworm stew on their own.

1 hour ago, vkromas said:

Ideally, you should be able to combine disciplines into all tiers ...

I think the question is, "Why are runes forced to rare quality regardless of the resources that are used?".  There's already a developed crafting system in place where the quality of ingredients determines the possible quality of the product.  A player in an Epic quality vessel shouldn't have to wade through three quality tiers of runes to get what they need.  Once they have the necessary Soul, they should be able to make their Epic rune using Epic resources.  I don't have a problem with the upgrade system that's currently in place, but it should be a secondary method (especially since someone did the math and a Legendary vessel needs 6 million gold worth of runes if you get them from the discipline vendor).  I've never commented on it because I know the Thrall system is somewhere on the horizon, and the whole thing could change by then (hopefully).

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1 hour ago, VaMei said:

Until manufacturing is a thing, we really, really, do not want this. The fact that all food, food components, and potions have fixed results allows them to stack, and allows components from individual assemblies to be used together in a final assembly.

For now, this is an enormous QoL *buff* to not have food & potion experimentation.

You make some very valid points. I actually agree with you on everything you said. My suggestion wasn't meant to be taken as "this needs to be done now" or even "soon". If manufacturing needs to be implemented to somewhat normalize the results (allowing them to stack), then so be it.

 

I'm also okay with food skills either being gated to the passive tree, or not (I understand why people oppose it, but I'm okay with it, personally). 

 

I was simply voicing my interest in (and support for) the emergent gameplay associated with RNG and/or tiered results being applied to food.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

in the form of essentially required food buffs. 

I do not wish to see this sort of thing happen either. It could so easily get out of hand and have builds require running multiple food and drink or even go so far like other games and have pets become potion spamming bots. 

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Oh wow, didn't expect this to suddenly get as much traffic as it's been. Also I wasn't aware Cooking was expected to not be a true profession. I was made aware a long time ago that as it is in-game now, it's not seen as a profession, as is mostly treated as 'fluff' with the minimal goal of staving off the hunger bar. 

I do see a few points being made as to why it shouldn't become one, but I feel compelled to play a little bit of devil's advocate if no one minds?

My initial Cooking concerns stem from the fact that Cooking as a, sub-routine? requires resources from all forms of harvesting. 

  • Mining is needed for Ore for the Cooking Pots, Cooking Foil and Hunger Shards. Hunger Shards being the big one as it requires a large investment in training.
  • Quarrying being the least impacting, as you can simply buy the stones to make empty Flasks.
  • Logging being the biggest contributor, needed for wood to craft roasting sticks for kebabs, Apples for many recipes, Wax for Cheese, and Pine Nuts for various recipes.
  • Skinning for Meat, Bone for bone broth, and Blood [if I recall for Bloodworm Stew]
  • and soon Plant Reaping for Herbs like Mandrake, Garlic and Ginseng, along with both types of Mushrooms.

Seeing as I already, in order to be self sufficient as a Chef, have to completely break normal training expectations to acquire the materials for recipes, by not going down a focused path until completed; it feels awkward to see all that work is not rewarded by having a specialization in cooking those materials into valuable food items. 

That being said, Cooking has always been treated as a non-profession in every MMO I can recall, so I don't have hopes for it to be made a strongly supported main profession. But Crowfall does feel different enough with such an in depth crafting system, that I had hoped seeing the various NYI tracks hinting at further implementations was a sign that Cooking was to be a primary profession. Providing Harvesting Buffs, Crafting Buffs, Combat buffs and even some Novelty items like Cake, Cookies and Mead. 

The other thing I found quite confusing which made me believe Cooking was not yet fully implemented, was the seemingly random item grades of food. Some food will be uncommon, while another with the same buffs, will be rare. To top it off, others seem even more random, not doing anything significant, but being marked as Legendary, like the Roast Pig. It's not a particularly powerful food buff or hunger restoration item, but I guess it's Legendary? 

So, being done playing the half-hearted opposition, I can see where other points are coming from. Seems like there are concerns that food buffs could become too powerful and develop a 'meta' of which food buffs you need to craft high end crafts like Vessels, or a particular food that is seen as a must have or BiS for Harvesting. Even the utmost concern is no doubt there being foods that impact the outcome of sieges. Things like a resistance buff that works against Trebs could be seen as too much of a 'must have'. ;)

But no really, buff stacking can get out of control, and buffs should have an upper ceiling absolutely. However it does seem the present community is whole-heartedly committed to cooking not being a supported, primary profession; and as a new player, I don't have any delusions of changing anyone's minds. If cooking is to be a fluff profession, are for a lack of better phrasing 'baby's first profession' experience, then so be it. 
 

As for the rest of the answers about tracks, I appreciate the information where it was given, and will stay tuned to see how the tracks develop. 

Cheers, Baron.

Edited by BaronLovat
Bad grammar

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15 hours ago, BaronLovat said:

Oh wow, didn't expect this to suddenly get as much traffic as it's been. Also I wasn't aware Cooking was expected to not be a true profession. I was made aware a long time ago that as it is in-game now, it's not seen as a profession, as is mostly treated as 'fluff' with the minimal goal of staving off the hunger bar. 

I do see a few points being made as to why it shouldn't become one, but I feel compelled to play a little bit of devil's advocate if no one minds?

My initial Cooking concerns stem from the fact that Cooking as a, sub-routine? requires resources from all forms of harvesting. 

  • Mining is needed for Ore for the Cooking Pots, Cooking Foil and Hunger Shards. Hunger Shards being the big one as it requires a large investment in training.
  • Quarrying being the least impacting, as you can simply buy the stones to make empty Flasks.
  • Logging being the biggest contributor, needed for wood to craft roasting sticks for kebabs, Apples for many recipes, Wax for Cheese, and Pine Nuts for various recipes.
  • Skinning for Meat, Bone for bone broth, and Blood [if I recall for Bloodworm Stew]
  • and soon Plant Reaping for Herbs like Mandrake, Garlic and Ginseng, along with both types of Mushrooms.

Seeing as I already, in order to be self sufficient as a Chef, have to completely break normal training expectations to acquire the materials for recipes, by not going down a focused path until completed; it feels awkward to see all that work is not rewarded by having a specialization in cooking those materials into valuable food items. 

That being said, Cooking has always been treated as a non-profession in every MMO I can recall, so I don't have hopes for it to be made a strongly supported main profession. But Crowfall does feel different enough with such an in depth crafting system, that I had hoped seeing the various NYI tracks hinting at further implementations was a sign that Cooking was to be a primary profession. Providing Harvesting Buffs, Crafting Buffs, Combat buffs and even some Novelty items like Cake, Cookies and Mead. 

The other thing I found quite confusing which made me believe Cooking was not yet fully implemented, was the seemingly random item grades of food. Some food will be uncommon, while another with the same buffs, will be rare. To top it off, others seem even more random, not doing anything significant, but being marked as Legendary, like the Roast Pig. It's not a particularly powerful food buff or hunger restoration item, but I guess it's Legendary? 

So, being done playing the half-hearted opposition, I can see where other points are coming from. Seems like there are concerns that food buffs could become too powerful and develop a 'meta' of which food buffs you need to craft high end crafts like Vessels, or a particular food that is seen as a must have or BiS for Harvesting. Even the utmost concern is no doubt there being foods that impact the outcome of sieges. Things like a resistance buff that works against Trebs could be seen as too much of a 'must have'. ;)

But no really, buff stacking can get out of control, and buffs should have an upper ceiling absolutely. However it does seem the present community is whole-heartedly committed to cooking not being a supported, primary profession; and as a new player, I don't have any delusions of changing anyone's minds. If cooking is to be a fluff profession, are for a lack of better phrasing 'baby's first profession' experience, then so be it. 
 

As for the rest of the answers about tracks, I appreciate the information where it was given, and will stay tuned to see how the tracks develop. 

Cheers, Baron.

(In bold) There is your problem. 

No profession, or single character is supposed to be self sufficient by design. That is not a reasonable goal. Looking at the dependencies and thinking "Oh I need to do this and this and this" and cutting out dependency on other players is the wrong way to look at any profession. 

Requiring food for crafting was not my biggest concern. My biggest concern was that such requirements would be further gated behind passive training. Of all the things that a person can "craft", alchemy and food seem to be two that a day one player can get into without waiting for passive training to make them viable.  In my opinion, CF really does need a couple of those so new players trying to get into the guild crafting game can produce "something" of value for their members while they progress in passive training.

Not everything crafting related has to be overly complex and gated behind passive training. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

(In bold) There is your problem. 

No profession, or single character is supposed to be self sufficient by design. That is not a reasonable goal. Looking at the dependencies and thinking "Oh I need to do this and this and this" and cutting out dependency on other players is the wrong way to look at any profession. 

Requiring food for crafting was not my biggest concern. My biggest concern was that such requirements would be further gated behind passive training. Of all the things that a person can "craft", alchemy and food seem to be two that a day one player can get into without waiting for passive training to make them viable.  In my opinion, CF really does need a couple of those so new players trying to get into the guild crafting game can produce "something" of value for their members while they progress in passive training.

Not everything crafting related has to be overly complex and gated behind passive training. 

But, that isn't entirely true is it.

Every profession outside of Alchemy, Necromancy and Jewelcrafting, can not only get their own materials (solo), but some components required from other crafts are also not mandatory to come from a trained player in that craft.

You don't "need" another player to make you stitched leather to craft a weapon. Will it be the best potential for the weapon? No, course not. But you can, make that component yourself, and the weapon yourself. You also don't "need" to train skinning to get the higher quality leathers, you can use better crafted knives, skinning potions and harvesting food.  The difference is, better tools, will not unlock harvested ingredients. You HAVE to train to get them. Could you buy them from other players? Course. But a Blacksmith who trained Mining, isn't forced into training a track specifically for Silver, just to turn around and start an entirely different track for Copper. Not unless you're talking MASTER tier harvesting, but by that point, you've long had the capability of gathering efficiently every Ore and material from Ore nodes. 

The part I'm mostly missing though, is why there shouldn't be end goals for Chefs. I understand the front end of a profession be accessible, that's great. But why that front end accessibility mandates a lack of meaningful end goal or progression is where you lose me. Even if the end goal was simply crafting food that lasts a little longer in terms of the buff, like a full trained chef adding 5 minutes to a buff. Or, being more efficient with the materials; requiring less to craft the recipe. Or as another option, being more precise with the same ingredients and producing extra portions of food when crafting. 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a power / combat affecting end goal. But something to work towards, that would be nice.

[Didn't intend for this to be a cooking thread. But I do enjoy the back and forth, fun to bounce ideas and opinions off other people]

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27 minutes ago, BaronLovat said:

But, that isn't entirely true is it.

Every profession outside of Alchemy, Necromancy and Jewelcrafting, can not only get their own materials (solo), but some components required from other crafts are also not mandatory to come from a trained player in that craft.

You don't "need" another player to make you stitched leather to craft a weapon. Will it be the best potential for the weapon? No, course not. But you can, make that component yourself, and the weapon yourself. You also don't "need" to train skinning to get the higher quality leathers, you can use better crafted knives, skinning potions and harvesting food.  The difference is, better tools, will not unlock harvested ingredients. You HAVE to train to get them. Could you buy them from other players? Course. But a Blacksmith who trained Mining, isn't forced into training a track specifically for Silver, just to turn around and start an entirely different track for Copper. Not unless you're talking MASTER tier harvesting, but by that point, you've long had the capability of gathering efficiently every Ore and material from Ore nodes. 

The part I'm mostly missing though, is why there shouldn't be end goals for Chefs. I understand the front end of a profession be accessible, that's great. But why that front end accessibility mandates a lack of meaningful end goal or progression is where you lose me. Even if the end goal was simply crafting food that lasts a little longer in terms of the buff, like a full trained chef adding 5 minutes to a buff. Or, being more efficient with the materials; requiring less to craft the recipe. Or as another option, being more precise with the same ingredients and producing extra portions of food when crafting. 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a power / combat affecting end goal. But something to work towards, that would be nice.

[Didn't intend for this to be a cooking thread. But I do enjoy the back and forth, fun to bounce ideas and opinions off other people]

Simply because each new end goal of professions is an escalation in the power curve for ALL players, and ACE has had to dramatically flatten that curve from what it was just a couple of months ago so that the "minimum viable" is quickly in reach of all players. 

E.G. Make better food that gives you +15 stamina vs +1, and suddenly to be competitive it becomes a need vs a want. Those cooks without training suddenly become useless until they get the necessary minimum training, because nobody wants the +1 stamina food, everyone wants and needs the +15. This is a competitive game, and every edge matters. 

Every item added to the top of the pile makes minimum viable move up as well. Maybe it's just "efficiency", well then every guild suddenly needs an efficient cook or they are wasting time or resources, and time = resources = power. It's still a form of power escalation.

If it isn't a buff to power, but simply adding 5 minutes to the buff etc, the question is "is that enough juice/squeeze to justify giving up training in another craft" because every choice is a spent opportunity cost.  

It's not a slight on people who want to cook, it's a recognition that we already have so many required, passively trained crafts, that more is not really needed to scratch that particular itch.  I personally would much prefer if the "challenge" to cooking came from ingredient acquisition and have that not based on RNG.  X ingredient is only found on the location of a harvested Iron mother load, or can only be found in winter near a quarry, or some other "exploration" play style inspired limitation. Perhaps recipes change from world to world in a random fashion, and part of being a cook is exploring what works on what worlds.

Heck, maybe each cook has to discover each recipe for each type of item, figured out through experimentation, and they are the only ones that end up cooking "bon-tippers" that particular way. 

Passive training is a hammer, I would prefer if we didn't need to hit every screw with it as well as the nails.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Well I suppose the power creep is true, and I must confess that is the draw to it. If cooking isn't important enough to be considered a need, or at minimum pushing towards that definition even if just barely behind it, then I'm personally not going to do it on mass anymore. I'll do it for myself and not bother doing it for a guild or group or for the economy. If the demand doesn't exist in a reasonable capacity, then it's already in a waste of time category.

Thanks for entertaining the idea at least. I think I'll take a step back, and see where the game goes over the next few updates. I have my hopes for Plant Reaping giving me an approach to being involved in the game as a solo player, as outside of Runemaking, there isn't many solo compatible tracks, and with the economy being nonexistent due to the heavy focus on factions and guilds [and their tendency to hoard resources and info] there really just isn't anything to do. It is fun being a Chef, and keeping up a good stall jam packed full of food and drink, but it will over-saturate the market if there's no dedicated market, and all value in food will diminish. So it won't be a sustainable approach for myself. 

We'll see where it all goes, Cheers, and again thanks for entertaining the idea.

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