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Vaylesari

Meaningful Development

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Has there been any actual meaningful development with this game over the past 4 years really? This game feels like it's just spinning it's wheels and going no where like most other kickstarter MMO's. Now I understand they implement a feature here and there and then realize said feature needs tweaks and more time. However, this game is still nothing more than a glorified tech demo. 

Do we know of anything concrete or solid about this games development and when it will become a playable game? If not I would like to know if we are capable of requesting a refund as this game truly feels as though it has move very little towards anything resembling a release. Which was promised to be released in December of 2016. 

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33 minutes ago, Vaylesari said:

Has there been any actual meaningful development with this game over the past 4 years really?

Yes. Thanks for your feedback.

35 minutes ago, Vaylesari said:

I would like to know if we are capable of requesting a refund

This depends on when you you bought what in which country. Contact support@crowfall.com and they can give you your individual answer.


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1 hour ago, Vaylesari said:

Do we know of anything concrete or solid about this games development and when it will become a playable game?

I'm not sure what your expectations are for a playable game, but we're leveling vessels, farming loot, gathering mats, crafting gear, and fighting over POIs, all in direct competition with the opposing factions.

If you're waiting for the storyline quests, the queued PvP battlegrounds, instanced raids, and 1v1 PvP class balance, this is not the game you were looking for.

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I've been expecting a game that was developed and delivered by December of 2016 as stated in their kickstarter page. They have failed to deliver anything beyond what is pre-alpha. I'm not sure why you accept a product so minimal and basic in its current state. They are NO WHERE near having the game complete even 3 going on 4 years after their delivery expectation. 

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AFAIK they don't offer refunds unlike Camelot Unchained. No clue where they pulled Dec 2016 from or what exactly they planned to have finished by then. Might have been discussed at some point but I can't remember anything. I never believed they'd have a completed game that quickly, but I am somewhat surprised we are so far from launch several years in. You can try to get a refund by contacting support or if you have a package of value, try selling it to the Trusted Traders. Lesson learned, Kickstarted projects and crowdfunding in general do not guarantee a whole lot, if you cant' wait it out or afford it, don't bother as it will only frustrate you. 

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The problem I have with this company is that they have promised us a game by now and we don't have anything besides a testing platform. While some of the systems are interesting and can be fun this is not a game. I personally feel lied to about this developers ability to create a game. My group of friends feel the same way and I've spoken to many others who feel similar regarding kickstarter games such as this. 

For me, it's not a matter of not being able to afford this, it's a matter of principle. I paid to back a game that I was excited for and believed I was getting involved in on a project that would have meaningful development. I believed that they were going to be able to create a game and be in at least beta by now. Instead we have been fed lies about why things have had to be pushed back. Systems weren't fun or they weren't ready and for some reason we kept on gobbling up these lies. It's the same cycle as Star Citizen and other kickstarter games that have no real accountability. They can take 10 years if they want, what real motivation do they have to complete this thing? 

Any competent developer of anything really would have goals to meet with repercussions if they are not met. I work as a software engineer and while I don't make games, I'm still held accountable for delivering my projects on time. These people don't want to hear any of this from us. They're willing to take our money but they don't give two poorly made sockss about anything negative we have to say. 

Either way, not like anything I say or do will really make any difference. Yes I'm annoyed but it's because I feel as though I was scammed out of my money. Obviously I won't get my refund and they get to keep on ignoring upset customers.

Put this into perspective of any other business model. Let's say you go to buy a new car. You're excited about it as you were told about the upcoming features and the new look. You're all jazzed up for it and you put in a pre-order. The manufacturer says that it's not ready now but give it a year, two years hell even three years. You patiently wait but after three to four years you're wondering what's up. You check in on the progress and you find out that they're STILL in the planning phase of your car. They haven't even begun to really put it together. Would you not be upset and wish for a refund? 

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2 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

The problem I have with this company is that they have promised us a game by now and we don't have anything besides a testing platform. While some of the systems are interesting and can be fun this is not a game. I personally feel lied to [...]

Sorry, but no, they didn't. At kickstarter they shared a delivery estimation for the core module. With the core module being the base the game will be built up on.

So, that's an estimation, not a promise. And that's a core modul, not a game.

Backing a game development comes with no guarantees at all, just the promise to use the money for the development and to do their best to deliver at some point. That's all.

Backing doesn't mean buying, but supporting.

If you would have understood this back then, you wouldn't be upset now. Neither if you wouldn't have understood it by now. And this discrepency is what is mainly causing the friction.

 

This being said:

Please get me right, I completely understand your frustration. I share it to some point and have shown my frustration about this or that myself often enough (and not always too constructively) throughout the years.
In my own field of business I have to deliver result highly punctual. A six months project needs to be finished on day x, no matter what poorly made socks happened in between.

However, your example doesn't work out, because, as I said, backing a development is not buying a game, and estimations are not promises.

In my personal opinion, what we got up to now is already more than the core module kickstarter was about. Yes, some things are still missing, but then again other things got implemented which have not been part of it (or not to that extent).

Whatsoever, the biggest pro in my eyes is the independency from investors. Which was their major reason to give us the opportunity to back the development of this game. It was the number one reason for me to participate back then ... and I believe it's the number one reason why this game is still being developed ... instead of just being cancelled, because it takes to long to give the Investors a nice rate of return.

But they are still fighting to get it done. Nobody can say they just took the money, sat back and enjoyed a happy life.
Through a long period of time they also listened extremely well to player feedback and changed a lot. Everybody who participated in this feedbackfest can't honestly accuse them of being late. We had our not insignificant part in it.

I also agree that the gaming industry has some flaws that should be taken care of. Just like the refund policies. In europe this lead to the law that you can always get a refund for a bought product within 14 days. But, this game is not done yet, right, it is still testing. So actually you "really get" the game only at launch and you should be able to get a refund 14 days after that. But it's not the case, testing it already counts. Be that as it may, that's an issue that can't be solved regarding one single company. And definitely not in a single games forum.

 

tl;dr: I understand your frustration, but I also think it wouldn't hurt if you would include additional sides into your perspectives. If you want to change something, there are ways (with more effort).
If you just want to share your frustration and/or blow off steam, that's ok, too. I understand, others understand, I am sure ACE understand, too. Though that doesn't necessarily mean that any of them will publicly agree or put energy into solving this or that issue (or maybe even at all).

Anyways, never forget to

Have fun, good luck
Kraahk

 


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5 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

The problem I have with this company is that they have promised us a game by now and we don't have anything besides a testing platform. While some of the systems are interesting and can be fun this is not a game. I personally feel lied to about this developers ability to create a game. My group of friends feel the same way and I've spoken to many others who feel similar regarding kickstarter games such as this. 

While I disagree with some things that ACE has done, I still assert ACE hasn't been deceptive. They did have the ability to create a game, it might not be fleshed out and finished the way you expect, but you cannot honestly say they are not trying. 

Kickerstarters are risky by their very nature and mmo's are known to be very risky since most fail before launch. 

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5 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

The problem I have with this company is that they have promised us a game by now

Where did they promise us a game by now? Source?

5 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

I personally feel lied to about this developers ability to create a game. My group of friends feel the same way and I've spoken to many others who feel similar regarding kickstarter games such as this.

Until people stop backing these things and fooling themselves into believing small studios with of a fraction of the funding, team, experience can pull off miracles, this will continue to happen. I don't feel lied to exactly, but the devs did hype up their own ability early on when they were still holding their hands out and not showing off exactly what they had accomplished yet. However, believing they had whatever special ability where huge studios don't is more a fault on my end.

5 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

I paid to back a game that I was excited for and believed I was getting involved in on a project that would have meaningful development. I believed that they were going to be able to create a game and be in at least beta by now. Instead we have been fed lies about why things have had to be pushed back. Systems weren't fun or they weren't ready and for some reason we kept on gobbling up these lies. It's the same cycle as Star Citizen and other kickstarter games that have no real accountability. They can take 10 years if they want, what real motivation do they have to complete this thing?

You are correct in that you paid to back a game to be made, but the length of time it takes and quality are not something you can pay for. Money can't make a good game, plenty of AAA examples of this.

I've backed several of these things to support them and hopefully get something I might actually play eventually, but the hype and fuzzy feeling goes away once reality kicks in.

Still have some hope that one of these games will see the light of day and be worth my time but as all of them seem far from complete and suffering from various development issues, I'm not holding my breath.

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28 minutes ago, Marth said:

ks had an est delivery of dec 2016 is what he is referring to.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo

Est is def not a promise but there is the context. 

Exactly.

An estimate isn't a promise and what was to be delivered Dec 2016 isn't spelled out from what I can tell. I'm gone back more then once to their early comments/dates to check my own memory and usually I was reading between the lines and assuming way too much.

I'm critical as well, but for someone following along at home, it shouldn't be too surprising we are where we are.

At this point I question the team's talent/resources/creativity to pull off something I want to play, but rolling around on the floor banging my hands and feet isn't going to do much.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

but rolling around on the floor banging my hands and feet isn't going to do much.

Except, it does. well maybe not literally, but the squeeky wheel does get the grease, peaceful and civil protests don't really work, even temper tantrums...

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On 9/19/2019 at 3:49 PM, Vaylesari said:

I've been expecting a game that was developed and delivered by December of 2016 as stated in their kickstarter page. They have failed to deliver anything beyond what is pre-alpha. I'm not sure why you accept a product so minimal and basic in its current state. They are NO WHERE near having the game complete even 3 going on 4 years after their delivery expectation. 

No they didn't. And it's not a product... For those of use with reading comprehension we understand that this game is in development. Just because those who kickstarted, or bought their way in later has access to play the test build in no way means it's a final product. Thus we aren't getting bent over fallacious expectations.

On 9/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Vaylesari said:

They can take 10 years if they want, what real motivation do they have to complete this thing? 

It's their livelihood. None of them are making money on the side that they can just flip the game the finger. People are seriously harsh on developers. No one wants to see what they put their passion into fail. While we would all love for it to be further along, what we would all hate more is that the game came out incomplete and there is no seconds chances for release. Right now most people aren't vested in this game except as an idea they heard about. So if it pops out later and is amazing, it will draw people in. The reverse isn't true. I understood the risk in 2015 when I backed the game a lot of things could happen that would make the game never launch. 

On 9/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Vaylesari said:

Any competent developer of anything really would have goals to meet with repercussions if they are not met.

You mean these greedy ones AAA games are beholden to like Activsion, EA, Bethesda (owned by Zenimax). Who have been releasing utter garbage to players and then trying to squeeze every dime out of them on top of the purchase price through predatory cash shops? The same companies that have been the center of scandal and controversy through end of 2018 and all of 2019? I thought the whole point of the kickstarter was to avoid ACE being beholden to companies like that.

On 9/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Vaylesari said:

Would you not be upset and wish for a refund? 

I mean, if we had a super AI that could pop out software like a factory pops out a car, that would be kind of awesome. Just talk to the AI and tell it your idea and with a snap it's able to construct perfect code that accomplishes that idea and implements it into your game. Cars are made by machines. Of course they won't take the same amount of time.

Quote

The core module is estimated to be delivered by Winter 2016

I think people misunderstand what a core module is here. This was released already. It's the basis for which all other systems have been building on and adding. It's how we went from hunger dome, to beach head, to campaign worlds. Each new system is a module added to the core of which eventually builds the game. Not to be confused with base game + expansions. 

Edited by Navystylz

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Ok, so you're one of the elite few with reading comprehension skillz because obviously people like me don't. When they put on the kickstarter page that the estimated delivery is 2016 I now understand that that statement can mean 2016-2050 or whenever they feel like it because you can read gud. Look, I understand that things can get pushed back and development isn't easy. However, if you are gong to issue a statement that says we're going to deliver a product around this timeframe then within a reasonable amount of time of that timeline the product should be delivered. So if they said 2016, and late 2017 it was delivered then ok fine. However, this is not the case because they keep finding that they want to add features, or change features or some features didn't work out. That's part of development, but it leads to the thought that they really didn't have a focus from the get go. They had a snazzy idea that lots of people loved and jumped on board with it. 

I would like to see these kickstarter games get finished and play a game that I backed because I loved the idea when I did back it. I just don't see how many of you can look at this game and not see that the developer cannot deliver on a product that they said they'd deliver. Whether it be because they got excited by all the backing and decided they wanted to add more and more and now where stuck in a perpetual cycle of development. Or it's because they don't have clear direction as to what needs to be worked on and what should wait till after the game is complete. 

I agree that many AAA games have come out as utter garbage with predatory cash shop options. And just like most of you, I'm glad to see those games fail. Not because I'm happy about developers losing their jobs (which is horrible) but because those game companies need to learn that that is not what the market needs. However, that's a whole different conversation. The short of it, is no I don't want kickstarter developers to turn into AAA developers pumping out cash shop games. 

Realistically my point is this. They promised a game to be delivered in 2016 through their kickstarter campaign. It was not met. For various reasons, some good some bad. It sucks but that's what happened. We are now nearing 2020 and the game is still pre-alpha and does not feel like it's close to a launch. How is this not upsetting to you?

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1 hour ago, Vaylesari said:



I agree that many AAA games have come out as utter garbage with predatory cash shop options. And just like most of you, I'm glad to see those games fail. Not because I'm happy about developers losing their jobs (which is horrible) but because those game companies need to learn that that is not what the market needs. However, that's a whole different conversation. The short of it, is no I don't want kickstarter developers to turn into AAA developers pumping out cash shop games. 
 

the reason they keep making cash grabs is because people complain about them then spend money anyways. If it wasnt profitable they wouldnt do it. 

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7 hours ago, Navystylz said:

It's their livelihood. None of them are making money on the side that they can just flip the game the finger. People are seriously harsh on developers. 

Well it is a fact that last year ACe split their resources in some way to form another division to market their game engine to competitors. While Its true they have not started selling anything from that division yet, it is a future revenue stream being worked on with CF development money. Expecting that the Crowfall game would not be delayed due to this is simply being naïve. 

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2 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

Ok, so you're one of the ´

Who of those people who answered are you talking to? Being precise may help to get a precise answer.

2 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

They promised a game to be delivered in 2016 through their kickstarter campaign.

Look, conversations work best when using the two-way principle. Others read what you write ... and you read what others write. Of course, you not reading (taking in) what others write may have caused the initial issue, though. So here's a quote of what I wrote:

On 9/20/2019 at 8:50 PM, Kraahk said:

At kickstarter they shared a delivery estimation for the core module. With the core module being the base the game will be built up on.

So, that's an estimation, not a promise. And that's a core modul, not a game.

Look up the kickstarter site and informations and you will find it right there. I understand that you want it to be a promised game -- but you can repeat it as often as you like, it still won't change the facts.

2 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

We are now nearing 2020 and the game is still pre-alpha and does not feel like it's close to a launch. How is this not upsetting to you?

From my point of view that's pretty simple.

See, being upset is a result of being passionate about something / loving something / wanting something. That's generally a good thing.

But in the next step it is about seeing the own wishes not becoming true AND not being able to / seeing opportunities to channel the own energy into something constructive that would help change the result to a positive. That may often lead to a problem.

Some (a lot of) people had the same issue. Some of them left, some of them took a break, some of them got their poorly made socks together, some are still trying to work out their thoughts.

The main question is about our own mindset. Are we able to learn to channel our thoughts and actions into something that leads to a positive change of the final result? This is a question bigger than one single profane game. It is a question about how we (learn to) efficiently act in life.

You showed that you misunderstood the initial terms. But even after being confronted with the factual terms by different people, you repeat the same wrong terms. So either you didn't read them, or didn't understand them, or just denied them. Neither of this looks good. And the Crowfall community isn't dumb, they see it and it just won't work out this way.

I understand you are saying you wanted a game being delivered in 2016.

But they just didn't promise that. No matter how often you say they did.

I really understand your frustration. But with you not acknowledging the basic truth that they didnt promise a game in 2016, there's no real sense in trying to invest anymore energy into this discussion in order to move it towards something constructive.

In my humble opinion.

Edited by Kraahk

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