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Meaningful Development


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23 minutes ago, Kraahk said:

I understand you are saying you wanted a game being delivered in 2016.

But they just didn't promise that. No matter how often you say they did.

I really understand your frustration. But with you not acknowledging the basic truth that they didnt promise a game in 2016, there's no real sense in trying to invest anymore energy into this discussion in order to move it towards something constructive.

In my humble opinion.

Kraahk, I agree with you on this subject, but wanted to point out there have been statements made that were confusing, some of those could very well be impacting the OP. I Would like to point out this quote which I think could be confusing.

Quote

Once the core module is completed (and tested), we will ship it. If and when we are able to work on other rulesets, we will treat these as separate deliverables, and they will be taken through a parallel (but functionally identical) process.

Last updated: Tue, February 24 2015 5:48 AM PST

As you can see this answer to the question "Will you complete the entire project before you ship it?" certainly can be confusing to some and can be interpreted differently.

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This will take a while now. Because I need to confess, words like this make me slightly angry. I will explain why.   First of all, I have to say I totally disagree to that point of view. Ind

If you don't think Crowfall has made any meaningful development, you haven't kept track of the game. Looking at my old videos shows how far the game has come in last eighteen months. Is it perfect? He

I'm not sure what your expectations are for a playable game, but we're leveling vessels, farming loot, gathering mats, crafting gear, and fighting over POIs, all in direct competition with the opposin

33 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Well it is a fact that last year ACE split their resources in some way to form another division to market their game engine to competitors. While Its true they have not started selling anything from that division yet, it is a future revenue stream being worked on with CF development money. Expecting that the Crowfall game would not be delayed due to this is simply being naïve. 

Pretty sure they had a whole separate kickstarter/buy in for the company that was separate than Crowfall. Which is one of the reasons you see so many people with ACE Development Partner & Investor in their names in forums, I believe. And it's smart to look for other ways to make money for the company, but did they actually say "sorry guys for the slow down, some of the Crowfall team were working on marketing the game engine?"

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9 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

And it's smart to look for other ways to make money for the company

Don't get me wrong, I think marketing an engine to other dev teams can be profitable. I am just not a fan of splitting resources towards the end of a project. Maybe its different in the software world, but all the projects I have dealt with seem to always need massive ramp up of resources and manpower. 

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I can agree with a lot of the points/counterpoints made in this  thread and I don't want to come off as angry at any of the people who have responded. The truth of the matter is that I personally feel dissapointed by the current development. I don't want to keep trying to bludgeon my point as I can agree that realistically it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The developers will continue on their merry way despite any of my thoughts or opinions (and please don't take that as me thinking that my thoughts mean more than anyone else's).

It comes down me, some random dude on the internet bought into a kickstarter and wishes this game was in a nearer to complete state(original huh). I do hope that they can deliver on this project as it would be fun to play and I can agree that at this point I should just move on as my personal grievances offer nothing constructive. For me, I just have learned that I will stay away from kickstarters/E.A. games unless I know exactly what I'm getting. 

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To be fair of all the Kickstarter MMOs Crowfall seems to be the one doing the most progress towards completion with the possible exception of Ashes of Creation, but that one has just gone shady af with the whole thing of releasing a battle royale side project before expanding their pre-alpha tests. 

I have faith Crowfall might be the first one to release out of all Kickstarter MMOs, but that's still some time away. With that said, I'm also fairly disappointed with CF, not because of delays, but more like what the game is slowly becoming (or not) in terms of gameplay. I'm definitely not backing a Kickstarter game again, that's for sure. I'd love to be proven wrong and eat my words when CF releases though. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

For me, I just have learned that I will stay away from kickstarters/E.A. games unless I know exactly what I'm getting. 

J Todd (The guy from the CF video) has expressed his frustration with the Kickstarter model as well.

While I agree that the Kickstarter model often leads to disappointment, I do hope that everyone remembers why it seemed to be a good idea years ago. Freeing the small studio from the business entanglement of a major publisher that will force end dates (ready or not) and force creative decisions for no other reason than crowd draw, and simply allowing them to bring life to their vision was actually a goal.

While the Kickstarter model may not be the best way, I hope future games can push forward without revisiting covered ground.

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3 hours ago, VaMei said:

J Todd (The guy from the CF video) has expressed his frustration with the Kickstarter model as well.

While I agree that the Kickstarter model often leads to disappointment, I do hope that everyone remembers why it seemed to be a good idea years ago. Freeing the small studio from the business entanglement of a major publisher that will force end dates (ready or not) and force creative decisions for no other reason than crowd draw, and simply allowing them to bring life to their vision was actually a goal.

While the Kickstarter model may not be the best way, I hope future games can push forward without revisiting covered ground.

Kickstarter is a just a funding avenue. ACE was not limited to just kickstarter and in fact they did other methods of securing funding. His frustration wasn't about kickstarter but their choice to have 24/7 testing environment. 

While I agree many kickstarters don't come to fruition, this is a problem with bad companies and the ease of raising funding through that platform. Just like GoFundMe pages, some are legit ands some are not. 

 

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8 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

It comes down me, some random dude on the internet bought into a kickstarter and wishes this game was in a nearer to complete state(original huh). I do hope that they can deliver on this project as it would be fun to play and I can agree that at this point I should just move on as my personal grievances offer nothing constructive. For me, I just have learned that I will stay away from kickstarters/E.A. games unless I know exactly what I'm getting. 

Pretty much.

Is what it is.

Can't make them work faster or produce higher quality results.

I don't regret backing anything on Kickstarter for better or worse, but I have the understanding that it's basically like lending someone money. Only lend what you are okay with not getting back. I expect/hope for something in return, but if not the world will continue.

If you have a KS package, try selling it to a Trusted Trader. If not, hold on to whatever you have and maybe in a year or several they'll have something worth playing.

 


 

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19 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Well it is a fact that last year ACe split their resources in some way to form another division to market their game engine to competitors. While Its true they have not started selling anything from that division yet, it is a future revenue stream being worked on with CF development money. Expecting that the Crowfall game would not be delayed due to this is simply being naïve. 

This will take a while now. Because I need to confess, words like this make me slightly angry. I will explain why.

 

First of all, I have to say I totally disagree to that point of view. Indeed I believe that this point of view - and the corresponding pretty one-sided and accusing discussions back when the artisan engine was announced first - have done more harm than being able to help anybody ... including us players (which is OK, because then it's the companies fault again, which just is another prove, right? 🙄 ).

In my eyes, this nearly general preconception is, well, kind of understandable - but mostly bases on just not understanding how ACE tackled their path of development, right from the start.

The first issue was they wanted to be independent from investors who could dictate their way - they wanted to make their own decisions. And Todd was on a personal mission due to Shadowbane. So Kickstarter seemed to be a good way to check out if this could be possible. They put a lot of their own money into it and started it. Kickstarter worked out, so far. Fine. But still, 1.7 million is not a lot of money for a game.

They knew that, and they explained right from the start how they would try to tackle that problem. Because, frankly, everybody should know that this is nearly no money at all for a good game. I mean, Star Wars The old Republic and Elderscrolls online, $200 million each, right? You start becoming serious with $50 million. So the question "How do you plan to do this at all?" was more than legit.

One of the solutions was to act highly efficiently. Especially by creating a core modul built on principles - the development process focussed on creating basics that can be used and reused manifold within the game. Doing it once, using it thrice. Like in Crowfall harvesting a resource node is nothing else but attacking an immobile NPC. It's the same system, used differently, by creating the underlying system in a way that would allow different uses, depending on the settings. Same with nearly every aspect of the game. 

They made the basic system so basic and innovative (and had to do it, or otherwise it just wouldn't have worked out with the available money and manpower), that you can nearly do everything with it.

Just look at the vessel system. We had 12 Archetypes, right? Animations are expensive. So they created a new system that would allow them to create new race/class combinations unbelievably fast, by developing some kind of interchangable skeleton/movement/skin thingamagic. It took them a lot of time to do it, but the result is that we have much more options already, and will have more in the future. Also it allowed the whole tribe system to come to life. There would just not have been the resources to do these race animations, otherwise and we would only have cats and boars.

Same with the whole land and building stuff. We thought we would get stiff prebuilt maps and strongholds. No. They created a system that would build those procedurally and individually depending on the settings. Because on the long run it's just more efficient to spend some more development time, but then being able to create a completely different and interesting, because new, world with a few clicks.

 

So, now anybody seriously try to tell me this is not the most clever way! And then anybody try to put up arguments telling me that this approach can't lead to a situation when you realize that this most-basic-of-basic-and-adaptable-multipurpose-fundament you end up with is nothing else but mindblowing and if you would have had this from the start you would have saved a poorly made socksload of work and money ... and then ... let's wait a moment, right, why not giving it to others for money? Wouldn't that be great? There would be more great games out there, much faster, much easier, much cheaper. Good for the industry and good for the players. PLUS we would get more money and by this be able to make Crowfall even better. OK, why not? Let's share this idea with the crowd.

And what happens?

Let me tell you (well, not you specifically, but anybody) something. The Artisan Engine hasn't caused any split of Crowfall resources. It was (and will be) a result of the Crowfall development, not a distraction. It surely would need to be cleaned up for licensing, but the according effort is in no relation to the Crowfall development at all. It's not as if suddenly half of the staff would forget about Crowfall, only trying to sell "what WE paid for" so they can have nice holidays and get their asses wiped with silk feather cushions.

The funding provided by backers has been used up long ago anyways. Or does anybody honestly believe this game development is still continuing due to the $5 mil pledges during the last 5 years? Now, THAT would be naive. The development continues due to Crowfall being interesting for larger investors. And the majority of shares - so ACE can still define their own way, without being forced to publish crap or shut it down - can be maintained extraordinarily well by creating more equity ... like for example by licensing fees.

 

It is so easy to just put some words somewhere. Indeed, the less words, the better. Just say "ACE (or whatever company) embezzles our money." and all is fine. Short enough so anybody will read it. And a few words become a rumor. And a rumor soon becomes an accepted point of view.

Who wants to go through the hazzle of taking in a lot of informations, aiming to establish a well education opinion? Who does?

It's so much easier to just think that anybody wants our pie, that they are indeed already eating it and that if we miss something, someone else obviously took it from us, and if we fail, thats only because of others have been unfair on our cost.

Most times it simply ain't true. And the reason is simple. We can achieve more, if we pull on the same rope.

 

 

18 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Kraahk, I agree with you on this subject, but wanted to point out there have been statements made that were confusing, [...]

As you can see this answer to the question "Will you complete the entire project before you ship it?" certainly can be confusing to some and can be interpreted differently.

I absolutely agree.

It's not the first incident of miscommunication and it surely won't be the last. Indeed communication has become more and more of an issue and is discussed more and more between crows. That was completely different in the first few years, when there was nothing else but discussion (due to the lack of any playable game) and only a few crows.

But I need to say, though I don't like it, I can partially emphasize with it. Both the carefully "kept open" wordings at the beginning and the quite restricted outgoing informations today.
How can anybody precisely forsee what will happen throughout the next few years?
And, how much time can anybody afford to spend on defending what they tried to tell in the light of free and open communication, because people just tend to fill anything they don't see or understand with their personal worst case scenario?

The artisan engine topic above is quite a good example: I share an idea, a long-term goal, great news and a great opportunity for both me AND you  -- you completely freak out and accuse me of stealing from you -- tell me, why should I ever share again ... or at least deciding very carefully what and how I share in the future?

There have been several suboptimal wordings throughout the years. Some of them I reported constructively, with reasons and suggestions. In each single of these cases they either took the time to explain to me why this is the right wording ... or changed it into something better.

And I need to tell you, I never before experienced a company doing that - at all.

So you may understand if I look very carefully at such issues. It's no one way road.

 

18 hours ago, Navystylz said:

Pretty sure they had a whole separate kickstarter/buy in for the company that was separate than Crowfall. Which is one of the reasons you see so many people with ACE Development Partner & Investor in their names in forums, I believe.

The ACE Development Partner title was bound to the circumstance of owning an Emerald bundle (2.5k Kickstarter/2015/2016/2017) or having spent the according sum on the shop.
Later on got the title got extended to Ruby bundles (1k, same bundle eras).
While there were only roundabout 100 initial Kickstarter Ruby+ players, during the redeem promotion in 2016 a lot of Amber+ backers took the opportunity for a cheap upgrade to ruby.
It is basically your passport for the monthly ACE Development Partner Q&A.

The Investor title was bound to both accredited investors at all times and the micro-investors during the Title III raise in late 2016/early 2017. While accredited investors are probably free to ask ACE at any time wether they are interested or not, the Title III raise was a one time opportunity ACE invited the whole community to partake in (starting with 100$).
Most "Investors" got their title out of that. A few hundreds. (And by the way, just saying, due to the reached stretch goals during this "community investment opportunity" EVERY existing backer got additional perks FOR FREE, wether they invested or not (bloodwine relic & woodland grove).)
It is basically your passport for additional business related informations.

So, no, I wouldn't think there would have been any seperate non-Crowfall raises, regarding numbers of people. The numbers are a result of the abovementioned opportunities.

 

18 hours ago, Vaylesari said:

I can agree with a lot of the points/counterpoints made in this  thread and I don't want to come off as angry at any of the people who have responded. The truth of the matter is that I personally feel dissapointed by the current development. I don't want to keep trying to bludgeon my point as I can agree that realistically it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The developers will continue on their merry way despite any of my thoughts or opinions (and please don't take that as me thinking that my thoughts mean more than anyone else's).

It comes down me, some random dude on the internet bought into a kickstarter and wishes this game was in a nearer to complete state(original huh). I do hope that they can deliver on this project as it would be fun to play and I can agree that at this point I should just move on as my personal grievances offer nothing constructive. For me, I just have learned that I will stay away from kickstarters/E.A. games unless I know exactly what I'm getting. 

I hope you understand that my intention has not been to devaluate the observation you shared (and I am pretty sure it's also true for the other responders). I mean, there is no published game yet, right? Nobody can deny that.

But there are reasons, and some of them are good. Or good enough for some people (like me). Doesn't mean they have to be good enough for you.

The Crowfall community is not a place of one single opinion, and never has been. Hopefully never will be. Every opinion counts. And the devs scan the forums, you can be sure they read it and took it serious.

But, what to do? Nobody can change the past. We can make decisions in the present, as good as we can. It's always easy to say "this was wrong" afterwards. But, where have we been when the decisions have been made back in the days? Did we say "no, that won't work! better try this instead!" I sometimes did. And I LOVE IT! Can't have enough of saying "See, I told ya....". But still, that's past and can't be changed. The one question is: What will we do now? Are we able (and/or willing) to contribute in a way that will indeed make a positive change?

As I said, sharing opinions is an important first step. Don't let anybody take this away from you. It IS important. But I am sure we can do more ... if we want to.


To all of you
Have fun, good luck
Kraahk

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6 hours ago, Kraahk said:

but mostly bases on just not understanding how ACE tackled their path of development, right from the start.

Kraahk, I read the entirety and agree with most of it. The one point I would like to stress that many issue's could be solved and worked out with simple communication, which we do not have. It should not fall onto you or others to speak for ACE and while I do hold your remarks highly, its just not the same as having someone from the company interact with their customers. 

I was suspicious of the whole 'build an mmo for 800k' but what the heck, I don't understand negative interest rates or modern money theory either. 

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10 hours ago, Kraahk said:

The ACE Development Partner title was bound to the circumstance of owning an Emerald bundle (2.5k Kickstarter/2015/2016/2017) or having spent the according sum on the shop.
Later on got the title got extended to Ruby bundles (1k, same bundle eras).
While there were only roundabout 100 initial Kickstarter Ruby+ players, during the redeem promotion in 2016 a lot of Amber+ backers took the opportunity for a cheap upgrade to ruby.
It is basically your passport for the monthly ACE Development Partner Q&A.

The Investor title was bound to both accredited investors at all times and the micro-investors during the Title III raise in late 2016/early 2017. While accredited investors are probably free to ask ACE at any time wether they are interested or not, the Title III raise was a one time opportunity ACE invited the whole community to partake in (starting with 100$).
Most "Investors" got their title out of that. A few hundreds. (And by the way, just saying, due to the reached stretch goals during this "community investment opportunity" EVERY existing backer got additional perks FOR FREE, wether they invested or not (bloodwine relic & woodland grove).)
It is basically your passport for additional business related informations.

So, no, I wouldn't think there would have been any seperate non-Crowfall raises, regarding numbers of people. The numbers are a result of the abovementioned opportunities.

Thanks for clarification. I brought it up only to highlight that investors were brought in, and that the Crowfall team, and certainly not the Crowfall money, wasn't being used to promote the engine. Which, again, at the end of the day, would only mean more income that would help the company anyhow.

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17 hours ago, Jah said:

They never claimed they could build an MMO for 800k. They were upfront about that in the Kickstarter FAQ.

 

there is a lot of ambiguity on this front. You are correct in that they stated it isn't possible to create an mmo for 800k, but they did also say that is all they need to ship the core module and if they got time they would add other rulesets as a separate deliverable. Had they not missed their 2016 and 2017 launch dates and then became mired in PvE themepark type additions in 2018/19 we would not even be having this conversation. trying to figure out what was meant 4+ years ago, instead we would probably be playing the game. 

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rvnOjNE.png

This is the size of my Crowfall client (happens for both Live and Test). Dunno how it happens, sometimes it goes away. This time it's not, I've tried restarting, repairing, uninstalling + reinstalling. It won't go away. Are there files hidden somewhere on my computer giving it stupid values to open in?

Also I can actually hear the menu music that plays when it finishes opening, so it has finished launching.

EDIT: Had to delete the Settings.cfg and UserInterface.cfg to fix it.

Edited by MrMugglez
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On 9/26/2019 at 7:02 PM, MrMugglez said:

rvnOjNE.png

This is the size of my Crowfall client

This is not really the place to get help about this kind of issues. Please contact support@crowfall.com in case of any kind of technical issues with the Crowfall client. This is your direct line to the developers and they will usually help you pretty fast. Indeed, if  I would be you, I would still report the issue and add the solution. Just so they know about it for sure.

On 9/26/2019 at 7:02 PM, MrMugglez said:

EDIT: Had to delete the Settings.cfg and UserInterface.cfg to fix it.

Thanks for sharing the solution. :)

 

On 9/30/2019 at 3:08 AM, yianni said:

Seems like a troll post to me.

I need to say I don't really care about trolling attempts.
If it is trolling beyond any doubt, just report it via the report button next to the content window.
If there is a possibility the feedback might be true/the question legit, I tend to just answer as fair and informing as I can - if I have the time to do so.

In my personal experience: In most cases, things that look like trolling are not. Being disappointed or angry, and letting it show in a feedback, is not trolling per se. It shows that people are emotionally involved, which shows that they really care for the game. Which means they are - or can/could be - important assets to the development process.

The question is, wether the company - or we as a community - are willing and able to moderate and channel those upcoming seemingly negative energies into something positive for - as far as possible - all particpants. For if so, thats just great and outstanding. And if not, it's just the usual poorly made sockse we excperience everywhere. Hint: The first thing requires open minds and a welcoming mindset. The second one to not care about anything but the own opinion, pushing mindlessly away anybody who says/thinks  something different.

Answering in a positive way, even in case of an actual trolling attempt, may not just show the right attitude, but also answer the legit part of the question to people who really have an issue with it.

Not saying that I do the abovementioned all the time ... or even fullhearted at times when I do. I mean, I am just a customer like anybody else - it's not my job and I don't get paid for it. But hey, we can share some thoughts from time to time to time, can't we? ;)

 

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On 9/22/2019 at 7:58 AM, Vaylesari said:

Ok, so you're one of the elite few with reading comprehension skillz because obviously people like me don't. When they put on the kickstarter page that the estimated delivery is 2016 I now understand that that statement can mean 2016-2050 or whenever they feel like it because you can read gud. Look, I understand that things can get pushed back and development isn't easy. However, if you are gong to issue a statement that says we're going to deliver a product around this timeframe then within a reasonable amount of time of that timeline the product should be delivered. So if they said 2016, and late 2017 it was delivered then ok fine. However, this is not the case because they keep finding that they want to add features, or change features or some features didn't work out. That's part of development, but it leads to the thought that they really didn't have a focus from the get go. They had a snazzy idea that lots of people loved and jumped on board with it. 

I would like to see these kickstarter games get finished and play a game that I backed because I loved the idea when I did back it. I just don't see how many of you can look at this game and not see that the developer cannot deliver on a product that they said they'd deliver. Whether it be because they got excited by all the backing and decided they wanted to add more and more and now where stuck in a perpetual cycle of development. Or it's because they don't have clear direction as to what needs to be worked on and what should wait till after the game is complete. 

I agree that many AAA games have come out as utter garbage with predatory cash shop options. And just like most of you, I'm glad to see those games fail. Not because I'm happy about developers losing their jobs (which is horrible) but because those game companies need to learn that that is not what the market needs. However, that's a whole different conversation. The short of it, is no I don't want kickstarter developers to turn into AAA developers pumping out cash shop games. 

Realistically my point is this. They promised a game to be delivered in 2016 through their kickstarter campaign. It was not met. For various reasons, some good some bad. It sucks but that's what happened. We are now nearing 2020 and the game is still pre-alpha and does not feel like it's close to a launch. How is this not upsetting to you?

We've all also gotten distracted from the development pace by beating on each other within the game system, pre-playing the political games, learning the systems as they are added and then not only finding the bugs but giving our opinions on playability and balance.   The devs have a definition of pre-alpha that most other devs don't...   every core system has to be in to call it alpha and we are on the home stretch to that milestone.   Alpha will be quite short and so will Beta.   It doesn't upset you if you are productively testing.   Its been a long haul for sure and I had to choose when to take enough time off to make the game feel fresh again at the right point in development.   I can say that there have been some most excellent times had by many so far, if you didn't experience any of these, then I can see how it can be upsetting.   As I don't think there is going to be much more infusion of investment capital into this project before release, this is gonna be the final push over the next six to eight months and then well get that slightly confusing soft launchy thing with the consumer launch in about a year.   

#eternaloptimist

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7 hours ago, Frykka said:

every core system has to be in to call it alpha and we are on the home stretch to that milestone.

This depends on what is considered a core system currently. Some things I consider "core" haven't been discussed at all for a good while and weren't mentioned during the latest Q&A.

7 hours ago, Frykka said:

Alpha will be quite short and so will Beta. 

Beyond needing to push it out because of lack of resources, not sure how this will be good for the health of the game and its future. 

 


 

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5.110 has Guild support, the GvG dregs campaign module, multi-front win conditions, Frostweaver, Caravans, Mounts.  These are core...   Pets, Resource refining, and other details can be in post launch updates.  Balancing iterations will take time, but nothing like artwork or engineering.  We need a solution to the economy, vendors and the EK role in that. But lets remember KISS, the Core for launch needs to provide the fun and the conflict and the elements that provide it from the various player roles.

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