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copperfield

Wildstar Action Combat?

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First, I'm gonna say that you guys are awesome.  This is exactly the kind of passion we here in the office have about the game and we love seeing it from you guys as well.

 

Now, I am working on the combat system and I can confirm that we are leaning toward a more Tera style combat where there will be a reticle for aiming so that you can better target things for ranged combat.  What you see in the videos so far is pre-alpha footage and we're still refining the style and flow of combat, so nothing is set in stone yet.  

 

What we want to end up with is more strategic combat where the battlefield commanders can control the flow of combat, the tanks can protect the "weaker" characters, and the more agile characters have more freedom of movement to get around and get things done.  Skill should matter, not mashing buttons in a sequence.

 

Imo, trash everything, Ws, Tera combat system and go for Darkfall-1 (not the sequel abortion called Unholy Wars) with vector hitboxes, this is the ultimate action combat, you feel in control with your character and the swing animation is "true", your reach is where you hit and you can move. Is a slow combat but is very tactical and you understand what happening.

 

Tl;dr If you have to copy, just copy Darkfall-1 not Tera (as you said Tera have locking on animations and you can't move while you perform these swings).


Archduchess Alice

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I'm going to pull this from the Combat FAQ which we updated this morning. 

 

"In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

 

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences – chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

 

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking."

 

FPS aiming doesn't have to be extremely twitchy though. Darkfall is an extreme example which people mentioned a lot of times on the forums and even in this thread. It's something I completely love but I will settle for something less twitchy. The directional aiming / telegraphs are a huge turn-off at the moment.

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FPS aiming doesn't have to be extremely twitchy though. Darkfall is an extreme example which people mentioned a lot of times on the forums and even in this thread. It's something I completely love but I will settle for something less twitchy. The directional aiming / telegraphs are a huge turn-off at the moment.

 

Agreed, they can do reticule based aiming without going the direction of Darkfall - or going in the complete opposite with the lock on of games like ESO and BnS.

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I admit that the combat i see on the ks videos suck hard, at least for my standards.

 

Darkfall did the combat right and is a full fps style combat, where you can fight 500+ people in the same area, and christ if a 1 norvegian programmer was able to do this miracle, Artcraft with all these old veteran developers can do the same if not better if they really want.

Or maybe they try to cather to a broader audience?

Please more people will be the ruin of this game, i told you numerous times, you will create haters in both sides, carebears and pvp hardcore.

 

Come on guys, the combat is the core of a mmorpg, make it right, make it hardcore, make it in a way where i feel in complete control with my character and where player skills really matter not just smashing 1-2-3-4-5-6-repeat.

 

ps: Atm, i wait to pledge, i want to see how this feature will turn before i spend my money on this project.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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This is why we have begun to head towards the Tera end of the combat spectrum.  Their combat looks great, however the price you pay is animation locking.  The worry about long animation locks is why we tried split body mechanics first.  At this stage of the project we can make those large kinds of steering corrections, later on it is much more difficult. 

 

Keep the feedback coming.

 

Please hold locked animation sequences to a minimum!

 

I might even create one of those obnoxious threads titled "Animation-lock Needs to Go. Forever."

Edited by Tepid

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Please hold locked animation sequences to a minimum!

 

I might even create one of those obnoxious threads titled "Animation-lock Needs to Go. Forever."

 

I guess they are scary to make a full fps combat with vectors and lose some WoW carebears, aka bad players where their aim sucks, but is a paradox, because a full fps combat is where true players skills and positioning really matter. :|

 

You have to decide now ACE what kind of players and what kind of compromises you want. You want true skills? You want a large hitbox so even bad players can hit something? Or you want to please both?

 

In the end is just a matter of money again, catering to a niche don't pay enought? But this game is already a niche, so stick with the actual population and afecionados you already have.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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Now, I am working on the combat system and I can confirm that we are leaning toward a more Tera style combat where there will be a reticle for aiming so that you can better target things for ranged combat.  What you see in the videos so far is pre-alpha footage and we're still refining the style and flow of combat, so nothing is set in stone yet.  

 

 

I believe Tera has native gamepad support.  I'm curious to know if this focus on Tera-style combat means Crowfall will support gamepads natively as well?


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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This is why we have begun to head towards the Tera end of the combat spectrum.  Their combat looks great, however the price you pay is animation locking.  The worry about long animation locks is why we tried split body mechanics first.  At this stage of the project we can make those large kinds of steering corrections, later on it is much more difficult. 

 

Keep the feedback coming.

 

 

Animation locking? If there is a lock the skill animation, Tera makes that skill invisible for a few milliseconds. This then makes the timing of the skill activation much more important. There is also the ability to cancel a skill animation with another skill. But you will only know what skill is cancelable with what other skill if you practice and know the class that you are playing inside and out. Tera's combat much more resembles a Fighting Game, where it is easy to play and hard to master. There are many more small nounces to the combat that a player will only find and get good at if they care to learn about them. Putting a telegraph system over top of the more skill based system, removes any of the skill that was needed. With a telegraph systems you know what skill is being used, the distance of that skill and its position. As a player the only thing you need is to dodge the area that is red. It becomes more about resource management of the dodges than having the player skill to move and counter attack.

 

This showing of the combat and having the kickstarter doesn't sit well with me. While I really like the ideas of this game and the potential that it could have. I have been already burned many times on backing games that never came out, or when they did come out they are not at all what the campaign advertised the game as. Spending $100+ on potential at this point is a lot to ask for. I was hoping that the game play footage would be much more in depth, showing class skills, some of the customization options for the classes and even some character creation. I wanted the game footage to seal the deal, but do to what has been shown it has made me much more wary of the game. I feel a bit less excited for the game. Yes the combat is pre-alpha, but it already shows that they are much more going the telegraph route than a skill based radical system. Their explanation of their thinking also does not make me feel that they are going in the right direction. Yes it could change but I have played many MMOs and they don't really change that much from alpha to beta and release. They only really change after launch when the game has already failed. So for me I will probably only care about this game if they show something of the combat that is much more to what I am looking for. Even if the others systems are good, since in MMOs the majority of what you are going to be doing is combat and if that is not enjoyable. There is pretty much no point to playing something that you don't find fun.   

                 

Edited by KuroAka

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I guess they are scary to make a full fps combat with vectors and lose some WoW carebears, aka bad players where their aim sucks, but is a paradox, because a full fps combat is where true players skills and positioning really matter. :|

 

You have to decide now ACE what kind of players and what kind of compromises you want. You want true skills? You want a large hitbox so even bad players can hit something? Or you want to please both?

 

In the end is just a matter of money again, catering to a niche don't pay enought? But this game is already a niche, so stick with the actual population and afecionados you already have.

This combat is slower than WoWs.  Here's the thing, crowfall is pulling a lot from the SB/wiz101 crowd.  Those players would have a very difficult time adjusting to a real action combat system.  Artcraft has chosen a system that kind of feels a little like action combat but is still easier for the fans from their old games.  Logically this makes sense.  The only problem is they are trying to build a pvp-focused game, which will be bad with a design like this because PvP games that don't have a good skill-ceiling do not attract a good amount of players. 

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Imo, trash everything, Ws, Tera combat system and go for Darkfall-1 (not the sequel abortion called Unholy Wars) with vector hitboxes, this is the ultimate action combat, you feel in control with your character and the swing animation is "true", your reach is where you hit and you can move. Is a slow combat but is very tactical and you understand what happening.

 

Tl;dr If you have to copy, just copy Darkfall-1 not Tera (as you said Tera have locking on animations and you can't move while you perform these swings).

I'd love to see a Darkfall-esque combat system too, but it's just not gonna happen. Aventurine built a game engine from the ground up to properly handle that kind of FPS aiming. Artcraft would likely need to switch to a completely new engine to get anything like this.

 

The best we can hope for is 1) no silly telegraphing, and 2) narrow cones and areas of effect so ranged archetypes have to at least aim properly along one or more dimensional axes, with exceptions for a small number of costly large AoE abilities.

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The conquest system, voxels in a MMO setting and many other things look very innovative and fun.

 

It's such a shame that they did not chose this direction for the characters and combat. The main reason why I've backed this project is because of the conquest aspects (which is huge) but beside that it doesn't look all that different from your typical themepark MMO. We've seen a change from tab targeting into directional aiming in the recent years but I'm basically waiting for the next step which is going to be FPS / free aiming.

 

The same thing goes for classes which is another disappointment in my opinion. This poll suggests that people are more interested in a system that UO or DF had. Classes bring a huge amount of balancing issues with them and is without a doubt rock / paper / scissor based. Especially if you make the combat less difficult to master.

 

I'm wondering how much of these things are set in stone or not. I doubt they're going to change the class system after investing quite a bit of resources into it so I'm hoping that they can at least change the combat system.

Edited by timetraveler

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Well, I spotted this ahead of time, but there was too much reveal frenzy for anyone to listen.

 

I'd hope they will give up ground telegraphs completely and focus on more indication on the actual character, and conservation of space.

 

They don't need to use 2 dimensional skill shots or free aim, but a practical target tracking system that marries accuracy and assistance. It's probably too drawn out to appreciate, but it's here if you want an effective middle ground.

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2528-concerns-about-telegraphs-readability-and-controls/


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Everyone here thinks Darkfall is God's gift to combat hitboxes, but in all reality it was just an abortive rehash of Age of Conan.


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If aiming a reticule = skill, then to me, the combat will be designed around who moves the mouse best.  Maybe for some people that means "skillful," a kind that is different from meaningful choice (which seems be the intent behind the Tera-style "animation locks").

 

For me, if we want skill, then forget aiming a mouse altogether.  This game needs to come with full body suits armed with sensors over every joint and along every limb.  Let me swing a proxy sword in my living room while standing on a feedback pad and translate every swing and block I do to the game.  That, to me, is a lot more "skillful" than maneuvering a pointer on a screen.

 

As for the topic of the post, I'm in the camp of people who thinks you can probably kill the ground animations without suffering much (players will adjust), and they can get really bothersome.  If anything, I like the suggestions to keep it a simple outline of an area, somewhat like the GW2 style.  

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Everyone here thinks Darkfall is God's gift to combat hitboxes, but in all reality it was just an abortive rehash of Age of Conan.

Not true at all.

 

Age of Conan had pretty good combat too, but Darkfall's was much more freeform and the closest thing you could get to an actual FPS game. Plus Darkfall started development in like 2001, wayyy before AoC.

 

The combat was fluid, fun, and worked well (as long as you had low ping at least; that's always the downside to FPS combat). Watch any high-tier PvP video.

 

Also, Darkfall only had 2 hitboxes: front and back. The only games out there with truly realistic hitboxes and combat are non-MMO games like Chivalry and M&B.

 

If aiming a reticule = skill, then to me, the combat will be designed around who moves the mouse best.  Maybe for some people that means "skillful," a kind that is different from meaningful choice (which seems be the intent behind the Tera-style "animation locks").

 

For me, if we want skill, then forget aiming a mouse altogether.  This game needs to come with full body suits armed with sensors over every joint and along every limb.  Let me swing a proxy sword in my living room while standing on a feedback pad and translate every swing and block I do to the game.  That, to me, is a lot more "skillful" than maneuvering a pointer on a screen.

 

As for the topic of the post, I'm in the camp of people who thinks you can probably kill the ground animations without suffering much (players will adjust), and they can get really bothersome.  If anything, I like the suggestions to keep it a simple outline of an area, somewhat like the GW2 style.

If you're playing a PC game then yes, a large portion of skill is where and how you move your mouse. You can have that and require multiple other layers of strategy involving how you use your spells, abilities, and items; Darkfall did a pretty good job at that. Not everyone is advocating for full FPS aiming, just some aiming, and no unrealistic ground markets and telegraphs.

Edited by Zarithas

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no Telegraphs stop

 

This, and I know Gene Snitsky in real life :P

Not true at all.

 

Age of Conan had pretty good combat too, but Darkfall's was much more freeform and the closest thing you could get to an actual FPS game. Plus Darkfall started development in like 2001, wayyy before AoC.

 

The combat was fluid, fun, and worked well (as long as you had low ping at least; that's always the downside to FPS combat). Watch any high-tier PvP video.

 

Also, Darkfall only had 2 hitboxes: front and back. The only games out there with truly realistic hitboxes and combat are non-MMO games like Chivalry and M&B. Darkfall was just the closest thing you could get with an MMO, with current technology.

 

 

Darkfall was too twitchy imo. Felt like a giant FPS instead of an MMO. And the melee combat was like jousting. 

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This, and I know Gene Snitsky in real life :P

 

 

 

Darkfall was too twitchy imo. Felt like a giant FPS instead of an MMO. And the melee combat was like jousting.

Many people felt that way. Better too twitchy than too slow, IMO.

 

I think a game like Chivalry has the best of all worlds. Not that twitchy; you move like a real medieval knight would. But you still have to aim, block, parry, feint, dodge, position yourself, etc. A lot of strategy and tactics are involved.

 

A new MMO, Reign of Kings, appears to be aiming for that style of combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSlmGCqbug

Edited by Zarithas

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First, I'm gonna say that you guys are awesome.  This is exactly the kind of passion we here in the office have about the game and we love seeing it from you guys as well.

 

Now, I am working on the combat system and I can confirm that we are leaning toward a more Tera style combat where there will be a reticle for aiming so that you can better target things for ranged combat.  What you see in the videos so far is pre-alpha footage and we're still refining the style and flow of combat, so nothing is set in stone yet.  

 

What we want to end up with is more strategic combat where the battlefield commanders can control the flow of combat, the tanks can protect the "weaker" characters, and the more agile characters have more freedom of movement to get around and get things done.  Skill should matter, not mashing buttons in a sequence.

 

Nice to hear, but no reason for melee users not to have reticle for aiming as well. Both ESO and Tera have it and it works just fine. 

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People need to remmeber Wildstar has no unit collision making it feel like there is no weight to it.  Even if there are telegraphs the fact that unit collision is involved is going to make it feel much better al beit harder gameplay.


LotD

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