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copperfield

Wildstar Action Combat?

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The reason why Darkfall feels too twitchy for most people doesn't have to do with the aiming per se, movement was a bigger factor. If you would turn down the movement towards something like Mount and Blade or Chivalry it would feel a lot different. It's hard to hit people if the default movement speed is relatively high and when they're bunny hopping and things like that.

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Not true at all.

 

Age of Conan had pretty good combat too, but Darkfall's was much more freeform and the closest thing you could get to an actual FPS game. Plus Darkfall started development in like 2001, wayyy before AoC.

 

The combat was fluid, fun, and worked well (as long as you had low ping at least; that's always the downside to FPS combat). Watch any high-tier PvP video.

 

Also, Darkfall only had 2 hitboxes: front and back. The only games out there with truly realistic hitboxes and combat are non-MMO games like Chivalry and M&B.

 

 

If you're playing a PC game then yes, a large portion of skill is where and how you move your mouse. You can have that and require multiple other layers of strategy involving how you use your spells, abilities, and items; Darkfall did a pretty good job at that. Not everyone is advocating for full FPS aiming, just some aiming, and no unrealistic ground markets and telegraphs.

 

Just because a game was in development longer, doesn't mean they came up with the mechanics. I could point at too many MMOs that sat stagnant as ideas or side-project the developers then act like they've been working full course for half a century (obvious sarcasm).

 

I could care less about the P2W complaints on this forum, as it doesn't seem that out-balanced or ungrounded. But basic combat mechanics does make me worry for the longevity of the game. It's a hard combination to pull off right.


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Everyone here thinks Darkfall is God's gift to combat hitboxes, but in all reality it was just an abortive rehash of Age of Conan.

 

It's interesting how people experience things differently because Age of Canon didn't feel anything like Darkfall to me. There are major differences between the two combat systems.

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I REALLY REALLY hope they have actual free aiming for all axis.  Wildstar had 0 ability to aim up/down, it felt like playing an old fps game from the early 90's because of this.

 

 

I thought Neverwinter did "Action" combat (as far as controls) a lot better, just remove the soft-lock.

 

I would like to see range combat work similar to Mount and Blade, that game has the most "fun" archery in any game I played, feels so rewarding to land a good shot after taking aim and letting an arrow loose and seeing it connect.

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Many people felt that way. Better too twitchy than too slow, IMO.

 

I think a game like Chivalry has the best of all worlds. Not that twitchy; you move like a real medieval knight would. But you still have to aim, block, parry, feint, dodge, position yourself, etc. A lot of strategy and tactics are involved.

 

A new MMO, Reign of Kings, appears to be aiming for that style of combat:

It shouldn't be too either. I think everybody is stuck with the assumption that Crowfall has to imitate popular MMOs when it should draw deeper inspiration and find something more refined. The inspirations already there, they just aren't looking.

 

Nice to hear, but no reason for melee users not to have reticle for aiming as well. Both ESO and Tera have it and it works just fine.

It only needs a reticle if your drawing a ranged attack, the melee attacks should affect the area they sweep.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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The reason why Darkfall feels too twitchy for most people doesn't have to do with the aiming per se, movement was a bigger factor. If you would turn down the movement towards something like Mount and Blade or Chivalry it would feel a lot different. It's hard to hit people if the default movement speed is relatively high and when they're bunny hopping and things like that.

 

Exactly, tone down the movement speed, make jumping cost stamina (which should be important for attacks) and thus you make bunny hopping useless, unless the person wants to help their enemy win easier.

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I think everybody is stuck with the assumption that Crowfall has to imitate popular MMOs when it should draw deeper inspiration and find something more refined. The inspirations already there, they just aren't looking.

 

Those are just weasel words. There is absolutely no need to reinvent the wheel when you're talking about core combat; there are really only a handful of ways you can implement real-time combat in an MMO without major technical issues. Crowfall is already innovating in many other areas.

 

 

Exactly, tone down the movement speed, make jumping cost stamina (which should be important for attacks) and thus you make bunny hopping useless, unless the person wants to help their enemy win easier.

 
Jumping did cost stamina in Darkfall and also prevented you from moving sideways for a brief period of time, which means jumping mid-combat was pretty rare.
Edited by Zarithas

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Those are just weasel words. There is absolutely no need to reinvent the wheel when you're talking about core combat; there are really only a handful of ways you can implement real-time combat in an MMO without major technical issues. Crowfall is already innovating in many other areas.

 

 

 

Jumping did cost stamina in Darkfall and also prevented you from moving sideways for a brief period of time, which means jumping mid-combat was pretty rare.

No, if you turn one page back, you'll find a link to my suggestion which already describes a system used in a small franchise already which will solve everything. They need to stop fixating on the common.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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If they go with TERA influenced combat then I will definitely be happy. TERA had very fluid animations, a very tactical flow to it, via animation lock and different status effects. Getting stunned in a game like wildstar or ESO...gw2 etc... it sucked. Getting stunned in TERA you are probably dead or very close. Jumping in wildstar, bunny hoppers everywhere. Jumping in TERA meant your death mostly (You were knocked to the ground if you were hit with an attack while jumping in the air). 

 

Skill decision is a real thing in TERA, make the wrong choice at the wrong time? Death. Wildstar make the wrong move at the wrong time... meh. 

 

Im not fond of the telegraphs. I think its dumbing down the action combat, you end up fighting the telegraphs rather than the player. I would rather see people predicting abilities and dodging attacks etc off of animation queues rather than the paint on the ground. Meaning they have to actually watch and read their opponent, predict what they are gonna do etc. 

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No animation locking and no telegraphs please.. Those are the most fundamental no-go features it sounds like you could potentially tread into right now.. free aiming would be a huge plus to get verticality into the picture though. It's also important to not make things too slowly paced, I see a lot of posters here advocating against DF-combat because of it's fast-paced combat, but in reality a lot of the intensity comes from how fast everything goes. A lot of skill is derived from being able to handle the pressure applied to you by your opponent and still manage to do good decision making in-game, that pressure and intensity is not something I have come across in any MMORPG other than Darkfall which could leave me absolutely drenched in sweat after particularly good fights. The only other experience in gaming that comes to mind in similarity is Quake3 tournaments against the world elite(I put up some good fights against av3k for example, to put things in perspective :)).

 

Now I realize this is perhaps too high a skill ceiling for the average joe, but I'm just asking for ACE not to aim too low in this regard, us hardcore PvP-junkies need something to get our blood pumping.

 

 

This an important line, because you touch on what actually makes a game last (when talking about its combat).  

For me, combat is all about fluidity.  The natural adrenaline rush you get from the immersion given to you by seemingly limitless possibilities presented before you in the game world and your character.
With every artificial entity, such as telegraphs, you add one more spray of Player Repellent.   It has to be raw.  Just you, your character and whatever animations and particles.



I want the devs to think back to concepts such as full loot for example.  In the beginning it was a natural part of MMO's.  It was how things were meant to be, and as Gordon recently posted here, an important part of a healthy economy in that it opens up many more avenues of game design and gameplay.
Now think of how it faded out of MMO's and for years it became an alien concept.  It seemed a system too harsh and unfair..  yet if we look back through MMO history, some of the most enjoyable ones that people love to recall the most, were the ones with full loot.

Its one of those systems you have to give a chance to before you understand just why it is so good and why it works best for immersion and what not.


Look at it this way too:
If ArtCraft make a Crowfall with non-FPS style combat and some other company made a Crowfall with FPS combat. 
One of them will die out and the other will go on.   The FPS one will be the one to go on.
And in the end if you tried to figure out why this happened, it will all boil down to immersion and the simple fact that the players feel like they are more a part of the world when combat is FPS based (can still have elements of 3rd person btw, we're not talking exclusive FPS).

 

You simply need to put some more work into areas like:
1.  Player movement
2.  Animations
3.  Netcoding



Remember, you can telegraph what a player is doing in much better ways than that 'Telegraph' system in Wildstar.  
Someone is charging a fireball?
Do you paint a giant red rectangle path on the ground from their character, or just add some fireball particle effects around their character and some relative audio?

Someone is swinging their sword in a particular direction?
Another big semi-circle painted on the ground for everyone to see?
Or simply slow the animations down and make them clear and fluid.


I believe the telegraph system is just a fancy new method of holding a players hand, but instead... you're telling them when and where to look. Players are not wonderful and they just need a little kick out of the nest, when it comes to this whole debate.

 

HItting the nail on the head as usual Kokane, thanks for putting this more eloquently than I ever could, I fully agree!

 

Darkfall combat was pathetic.  It was just Quake-theMMO.  If I wanted that sort of combat I'd go play Planetside or something.  Melee in Darkfall felt like running around in Counterstrike with nothing but knives - a left click spam fest. 

 

No, thank you.  Not that I have anything to worry about.  This game clearly isn't going to be using a crap-DF system for combat.

 

Typical knee-jerk reaction of a bad I'd say..

 

Because Wildstar failed because of its combat... /sarcasm off

Let me tell you something; No, it didn't. The combat was one of the few things that game did right, it was actually a pretty solid experience. One of the best PvP experiences(combat wise) I've had in a long while. Now, even if you liked it or not, it wasn't the reason for why the game failed.

 

Wildstar combat was alright, but it was definitely not such a good experience, it was littered with big flaws; telegraphs, short TTK, somewhat low skill ceiling, usually just initiating a fight was a surefire way to win said fight.

 

Everyone here thinks Darkfall is God's gift to combat hitboxes, but in all reality it was just an abortive rehash of Age of Conan.

 

The fact that you would even compare those two says a lot about what kind of level of understanding you had of either one, ignorance(read stupidity) is bliss, I guess.

 

It's interesting how people experience things differently because Age of Canon didn't feel anything like Darkfall to me. There are major differences between the two combat systems.

 

Yes AoC and Darkfall combat has literally nothing in common, I don't know what kind of deranged delusions some of the posters in this thread is suffering from but AoC and df combat were vastly different on all levels. I both quite enjoyed and excelled at both though. Darkfall being obviously superior in the combat-gameplay department however.

Edited by Zushakon

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all of these tight skill based controls being suggested sound nice, but are they really viable or possible at the scale of an mmo?

 

I think its been mentioned but Darkfall did all of this years ago as an indie game.  

 

Darkfall technology (2009 release):

- FPS

- Large non-instanced game world

- Player collision


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First, I'm gonna say that you guys are awesome.  This is exactly the kind of passion we here in the office have about the game and we love seeing it from you guys as well.

 

Now, I am working on the combat system and I can confirm that we are leaning toward a more Tera style combat where there will be a reticle for aiming so that you can better target things for ranged combat.  What you see in the videos so far is pre-alpha footage and we're still refining the style and flow of combat, so nothing is set in stone yet.  

 

What we want to end up with is more strategic combat where the battlefield commanders can control the flow of combat, the tanks can protect the "weaker" characters, and the more agile characters have more freedom of movement to get around and get things done.  Skill should matter, not mashing buttons in a sequence.

I don't mind this.  Thou having played SMITE for a little while, gotta say I am starting to like all skill shot based combat.

But that being said I am also a fan of Dark Souls and Monster Hunter, esp with active blocking via a stamina system.

 

Have you considered or tried being able to go into and out of combat mode/weapon drawn?   Like Monster Hunter where when your out of combat you can run, jump, climb, interact and use items.  Where in combat, some weapons may even slow you down to a crawl because their so heavy, like a Lance and Heavy Shield.

Because in my mind one of the balancing factors should be movement speed.  If your heavily armors and have a great stonking weapon, you shouldn't be able to move as quickly as a nimble dagger wielding character in cloth.  And being able to switch between modes allows you to modulate the movement speed of a character, instead of having them become perpetually slower, which could have other ramifications.

 

I think it could add another tactical layer to combat, knowing when and where to draw you weapon.

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Please don't turn combat into a dance of who can circle-straffe, double jump, tripple backflip swan dive at the best intervals.  For the love of God that is not combat and it's what you end up with if you go full reticle combat in an MMO.  I want to swing my sword and hit a player, I don't want to aim my reticle at a plyer and hope that input/server/system lag and all that jazz are the deciding factor on if my ability connect or not.  If I'm swinging my sword, and you are in a cone (Not a huge arc, a cone)in front of me, chance are I'm hitting you.

 

In regards to the annimations on the ground, I personally prefer a toggle option.  Let players who want to use them have them on, let players who don't want to use them have them off.  Limiting options is just bad in my eyes and fuirther pushes games into a more and more niche market until you are happily pleasing 10K people, half of which will be off to the next latest and greatest 3 months down the line.  So basically, let us decide if we want to use the telegraphs or not and please don't pander just to those who cry the loudest.


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I also don't really like the Wildstar gameplay and hope it will be changed by the time the beta is here :). (Actually my best gameplay experience was with GW2, but you're going with no tab targetting so you can't ahve the same system).

 

 

Anyway, I love the fact that you're talking so much with the community ! I always loved developpers open to their playerbase and engaging with it ! Keep up the good work :)

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