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copperfield

Wildstar Action Combat?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4bwKsk0toI - Just as an example for you to see one side of the so called "extremes". This game had the highest skill cap of any mmo ever to exist.

 

I'm not saying Crowfall should try to mimic this, because its both not physically possible with their game nor what we really want for the type of game Crowfall is.

 

We want a middle ground though, as the vision they showed today for the combat looked dull and showed a clear lack of innovation and courage to move out of the comfort zone of the cookie-cutter MMO's.. It's what we were expecting or hoping for, at all.

That's not really true.  Dragon Nest has a significantly higher skillcap.  Darkfall is often glorified by the people that play it and when people say darkfall is too fast it really baffles me, because darkfall is very tame in the bigger picture. 

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I'm on board with the Tera style if they can do it without the animation lock. I am not on board with DF style ( yes I played it in late beta/release for awhile ).

 

I still prefer GW2 style or Tera style with what I call soft target with it.

 

I can tolerate lots of different kinds of combat and out of all of them, the worst aspect of any combat I have ever come across is the animation lock of TERA.

Edited by frozenshadow

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Yep, imagine some guy does a move over you, can you actually aim up and swing at him  or use an ability on him if he is above you?  Even though they mentioned ranged attacking targets on a wall, that does not mean they have a very good aiming system, I want to see the verticality of their combat. 

 

I felt really underwhelmed in the kickstarter video when they show the frostweaver or whatever about to shoot off an ability then they cut to a camera looking at her fire it instead of showing us what it looks like from a character perspective to use a ranged ability. 

 

I don't expect to be able to swing a sword vertically. I think the verticality is more of a ranged thing because that's just what makes sense, especially if you're going to make animations important. How do you animate a sword swing if you can aim it upwards? Now shooting an arrow or an iceball, yes that is much easier to do. I think in TERA only certain melee skills can be aimed vertically (I think certain single target skills like stuns and things), though I may even be wrong about that. 

 

But they already stated that combat in the video is still only a very early thing so I wouldn't focus on that too much considering how many dev replies we've seen in this thread regarding where they'd like to go.

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Mmmm, I'm a little more in the middle on this issue.

Fast paced combat isn't always a good thing.  And slower combat isn't always monotonous either.

 

For example, GW2 was fast paced, but it lacked substance.  It was more twitched reaction based rather then skill or forethought, which in turn lead it to be very spammy/keyboard mashing rather then tactical or strategic.

 

Games like Dark Souls or Monster Hunter actually have quite a slow combat system, but they are deep and complex.  Everything still telegraphs and your given time to react most of the time, but your punished quite badly for failing.

I'd rather have it be strategic and tactical over fast and visceral, but they are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

I think you can have some telegraphing, so long as you can break thou's animation mid way to evade or something, but for a lot of skills you should have to follow it through.  Being able to break every animation at the drop of a hat to evade, ie GW2, makes the game too floaty and over aggressive since you can always get out of making bad decisions.  You should have to pay for making bad decisions, and have to commit to your attacks.

 

However I do think that skills and abilities should always be telegraphed to one extent or another, and require aiming to land.  No tab targeting instant damage/CC.  Basically like SMITE, where every skill shot at you can be avoided, provided the person using the skill can even land it in the first place.

There is nothing worse then being blindsided by a skill that you couldn't see coming and or couldn't avoid/block.

 

Everything should be avoidable and/or blocked.

 

 

So in short, Character Animations should probably be light on telegraphing, but some is acceptable.

While skill animations should be well telegraphed, require direct aiming, and be able to be avoided.

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Animations will get better, so I am not even worried. Telegraphs really need to go though, WS combat was just a cluster-custard of dancing between colors and shapes on the ground, not looking at wind up animations, not learning what to avoid, soak, counter due to skill animation and play experience.

 

Go more in the direction of TERA (IMO best combat system in an MMO to date) and much, much less WS.. or at least just drop telegraphs :S


Grishnakk/Amorphis - www.fivefingerdiscount.org - The Kelly Gang - Oceanic PvP

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I hope they take a page out of Tera's book because their combat system is the best. Its simple, but intuitive and can be deep with the right class. Enemy move telegraphs, interruptions, blocking, etc, all with the touch of buttons, not skill chance and defensive cooldowns. 

Edited by platelamp

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that's gonna be one of the hardest things for them to do here i think. You have such a mix of diverse backgrounds in this community right now that are use to or prefer a certain play style over another. And of course everyone thinks their way is the most skilled way lol

 

Indeed. Whatever system is used, counterplay is the most important aspect. Being able to respond to what your opponent does, be it with magical shields, parrying, dodging, or even clashing of attacks, that is what a good combat system needs.

 

It needs to be fast but it doesn't have to be the fastest to be enjoyable and have a high skill cap. Overall, as long as the game has a high skill ceiling, I think I will enjoy it. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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This is what it'd look like without telegraphs

 

http://justinlowe.name/telegra.webm

 

i.e. Absolutely perfect

That looks... ... ... BEAUTIFUL!

 

Please no telegraphs.

 

Also, thank you to the devs for your responses - I'm happy to hear that you are all interested in strategy and not twitch button mashing <3

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I think you can have some telegraphing, so long as you can break thou's animation mid way to evade or something, but for a lot of skills you should have to follow it through.  Being able to break every animation at the drop of a hat to evade, ie GW2, makes the game too floaty and over aggressive since you can always get out of making bad decisions.  You should have to pay for making bad decisions, and have to commit to your attacks.

 

I think GW2 style would work really well with the added physics though to help aleviate some of that floatyness you are talking about, at least in larger sized groups and battles. I think if gw2's skills were less limited here than it was there it would work well, but I think I might be in the minority on t his one here lol

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What makes it a pain in the arse in large battles? 

Sorry I missed this before I think. My main concern is in large battle scenerios and city seiges the fights are going to be insanely drawn out and very long with that combat style. I think it's great for smaller group gameplay and 1 on 1 scenerios though and for hose who can sit for  hour and hours at a time, but kind of sucks for those with limited game time. 

Edited by sarin

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Sorry I missed this before I think. My main concern is in large battle scenerios and city seiges the fights are going to be insanely drawn out and very long with that combat style. I think it's great for smaller group gameplay and 1 on 1 scenerios though and for hose who can sit for  hour and hours at a time, but kind of sucks for those with limited game time. 

Why does that combat style make things longer and/or more drawn out?  Sorry I'm just not making the connection. 

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I think GW2 style would work really well with the added physics though to help aleviate some of that floatyness you are talking about, at least in larger sized groups and battles. I think if gw2's skills were less limited here than it was there it would work well, but I think I might be in the minority on t his one here lol

I think I would have preferred fewer skills but with more depth and a resource system, ala SMITE.

I want to feel good when my skill lands, rather then just rolling my face over the keyboard madly mashing keys.  I like to time and aim my skills, not spam then relentlessly.

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The problem when designing combat, I think, is that no single type is best for everything. Tab targeting is simply intiutitive for non-AOE single target automatic hit abilities (ie single target buffs or debuffs). Self-visible telegraphs are good for AOE  and other area directional attacks. A reticle is good for single target abilties that need to be aimed (ie a bow attack). Also just hitting anything in front of you without aiming for melee attacks or everything around you for a whirlwind attack . My suggestion is to use all of them where they are appropriate. Don't try to take one thing and ram everything into it.

 

Also, please, do not use animation lock. I would rather have everything look terrible than to see that utilized.

Edited by frozenshadow

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Why does that combat style make things longer and/or more drawn out?  Sorry I'm just not making the connection. 

I just feel in the grand scheme over all it ends up being a much slower style of combat vs something like GW2. It's also a some what limited set of players who are actually used to that play style so you end up with a bunch of players who aren't use to it and some who will not stick around because of it. I feel GW2 with some tweaks a changes would be better. 

 

I feel like that style also promotes a lot more AOE style game play.

 

Hard to explain what I mean I guess, I can visualize the difference in combat better than i can explain it here lol

 

In the end I also find it more enjoyable play style personally, but they need to do whats best for the game as a whole.

Edited by sarin

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I felt really underwhelmed in the kickstarter video when they show the frostweaver or whatever about to shoot off an ability then they cut to a camera looking at her fire it instead of showing us what it looks like from a character perspective to use a ranged ability.

 

Combat did seem underwhelming to me as well, but because the hits lacked impact. It might "feel" different in-game, of course, this is all my impression from a short vid. I'm also optimistic that there'll be more combat animations as we're talking about pre-alpha here. Anyway, yea, I feel ya

 

EDIT: More towards TERA, less unnecessary combat light effects please. I favor the SB length of combat as opposed to GW2

Edited by caledon

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I just feel in the grand scheme over all it ends up being a much slower style of combat vs something like GW2. It's also a some what limited set of players who are actually used to that play style so you end up with a bunch of players who aren't use to it and some who will not stick around because of it. I feel GW2 with some tweaks a changes would be better. 

 

I feel like that style also promotes a lot more AOE style game play.

 

Hard to explain what I mean I guess, I can visualize the difference in combat better than i can explain it here lol

 

In the end I also find it more enjoyable play style personally, but they need to do whats best for the game as a whole.

Honestly when I think about it, I really prefer the combat pacing of a game like SMITE rather then say GW2.

Because in SMITE you have very few skills, and the cooldown tends to be largely similar with all characters.  (10-20 seconds, ult being often around 90-120 sec)

 

So what tends to happen is that you have an elegant dance with your opponent, dipping in and out of range, often poking at each other trying to get each other out of position.  This is certainly slower combat, but is much more about strategy and tactics as your given ample time to think about what your doing.

But then suddenly things will come to ahead.  Somebody might make a mistake or make a play, and thing become very fast paced and frantic, where it becomes more about twitch reaction.

 

You can get killed very very quickly, but almost as soon as it starts it's over.  So it's less of a long unending slog, where you just standing in the same place punching each other in the face. And more like a roller coster, starting of slower so your can take it in, feeling the tensions build up, then suddenly snapping swell of actions and emotion.

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I was thinking about how I personally play and use my mouse and keyboard when thinking about this topic here.

 

I think the reason I personally prefer GW2 style more than any other is the fact I use the mouse strictly for movement which at times makes it to get a good aim when you are using as movement as well instead of keyboard movement. At least for me, I mean I will adapt like I always do with what they do, but that's my preferred method.

 

I think if they would add into the game for the player to change how the crosshair looks, in terms of color shape etc I would be more accepting. Would allow my eye to adjust to it better when using the mouse as movement at the same time. A small white circle is hard to see and adjust when a person plays like I do.

Edited by sarin

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This is what it'd look like without telegraphs

 

http://justinlowe.name/telegra.webm

 

i.e. Absolutely perfect

 

Add a crosshair, to help with skill position and DONE!! If this is what they actually showed, there would be no hesitation and misgivings about the game. I for one would be backing their kickstarter and be excited about this game. But with the telegraphs I can not care much and will not be backing them. What they should do is to show something from what they are now working on. They said that they are going to a more radical (tera style) so show that. Even if its not that great, anything that is "in the works" for this type of system. Would make a much better impression than the gameplay video with the telegraphs. Not going to give money to them just in hope that the combat changes. Have lost to much money on kickstarters to warrant backing ideas and potential, in hope that what is game is what has been advertised. 

 

Smite has horrible animations for movement, you are restricted in the freedom of movement that you have. How fast you move is also much too slow. GW2 while having pretty good animations, the game feels very sloppy and floaty. There is a lake of weight in the skills and attacks. It just doesn't have a satisfying feel. The dodge mechanic for GW2 is also very poor, the system only allows you to dodge the "special attacks" IE the telegraphs on the ground. Where Tera and what a 3rd person action game does. Which is as long as you have the skill and know the timing you have the potential of dodging every attack. GW2 still has a soft targeting, that removes all the skill aspect from the game.  

Edited by KuroAka

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Honestly when I think about it, I really prefer the combat pacing of a game like SMITE rather then say GW2.

Because in SMITE you have very few skills, and the cooldown tends to be largely similar with all characters.  (10-20 seconds, ult being often around 90-120 sec)

 

So what tends to happen is that you have an elegant dance with your opponent, dipping in and out of range, often poking at each other trying to get each other out of position.  This is certainly slower combat, but is much more about strategy and tactics as your given ample time to think about what your doing.

But then suddenly things will come to ahead.  Somebody might make a mistake or make a play, and thing become very fast paced and frantic, where it becomes more about twitch reaction.

 

You can get killed very very quickly, but almost as soon as it starts it's over.  So it's less of a long unending slog, where you just standing in the same place punching each other in the face. And more like a roller coster, starting of slower so your can take it in, feeling the tensions build up, then suddenly snapping swell of actions and emotion.

I understand what you are saying, but thats the reason I think that style is not good for CF. I am thinking battles of 100 vs 100 here like we seen in the shadowbane days. All the in and out will draw out a 100 vs 100 to insane amount of times on sieges. I am torn on this topic more than any other in this game. Because I don't want to be at siege going back and forth for hours on end with no head way on either side, but still want enough  skill involved to matter if that makes sense. I prefer tactics over skilled game play in this context anyway.

 

Now on the smaller scale fights, such as resource fights my thought is different LOL ... unfourtantly they have to pick a style and go with it all around.

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tera style combat very good +1 ...... Other sources devs should look too for inspiration in the area of combat mehanics imo!! is Never Winter online and Dark Souls

 

P.S. The cash shop in NWO made me quit the game.

Edited by n3xx

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