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Wildstar Action Combat?

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That video is perfect for this discussion.  Thanks for posting it. 

 

And the funny thing is, that guy made that video a few months before Wildstar came out in answer to a big action combat forum discussion on a Wildstar fansite. So it's basically exactly what we're doing now haha.

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This is why we have begun to head towards the Tera end of the combat spectrum.  Their combat looks great, however the price you pay is animation locking.  The worry about long animation locks is why we tried split body mechanics first.  At this stage of the project we can make those large kinds of steering corrections, later on it is much more difficult. 

 

Keep the feedback coming.

 

 

Have you had any chance to play Dota 2? Characters have a turn rate and the attacks and animations have a cast point at which the effect lands. If you interrupt before the cast point you cancel the attack. 

 

I really hope we don't end up with characters skating around circling each other and snapping off instant attacks.


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Just to express my complete thoughts on the video (Ignoring the fact that it is still Pre-Alpha and might be used for testing purposes).

 

I am hoping for some weight in Combat animations.  Artcraft says they are going to implement physics (Gravity).  If we are going to see physics control the behavior of projectiles, I think the world's characters should also reflect the rules of physics, and not allow for astronaut jumping like we saw in the Pre-Alpha gameplay footage (WeeeeeeeEEEEEeEeEeEeeeee, Hearthstone reference).

 

I am hoping for some slower combat movement.  The general aesthetic in the videos gave me the perception that characters were moving too fast for the environment to really feel grim and dangerous.  More specifically, the Stoneborn looked pretty light.  I expected less even movement from a hunk of rock propelling itself with raw strokes of force from its legs.

 

The dashes felt really good.  I especially liked the Stoneborn's backwards barrel roll, reminded me of The Hobbit scene where a Dwarf fights the bad guys while stuck in a barrel.

 

I am hoping for less telegraphs, and less obvious decals for the telegraphs that ARE used.  I want the game to look grim 24/7, the only pretty colors should be seen in Spring, or in the sky.


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This is why we have begun to head towards the Tera end of the combat spectrum. Their combat looks great, however the price you pay is animation locking. The worry about long animation locks is why we tried split body mechanics first. At this stage of the project we can make those large kinds of steering corrections, later on it is much more difficult.

 

Keep the feedback coming.

 

 

This is exactly what I wanted to hear. TERA style combat without the animation-lock would be awesome!

 

Personally I can go either way on telegraphs. Prefer GW2 or ESO style.

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Please go watch Tera videos, you will see that it is not at all twitchy FPS.Think more in terms of a fighting game. Many are just over tab targeting and want something that is much more active and geared toward a skill based system, but is not a gear grind. Where the build of your class, your skill level in the class and you learning the game, and the other class skill animation. Just because it is more "action oriented" does not mean that it is twitch FPS. Every FPS game is not Twitch based, just because it is an FPS.

 

I've played Tera quite a bit actually and it's some of the best PvP I've played. What's that have to do with my comment about fps twitch?


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The threshold for twitch is so low for some people.  Games like darkfall and tera and WoW and gw2 and wildstar are not twitch.  Those are very tame systems.  Sure they aren't as slow as a game like shadowbane, but they are nowhere near FPS games so to call them fps twitch is hyperbolic. 

 

I am really glad to see so many people speaking up against telegraphs.  The worst mistake artcraft can make is catering the game to really antiquated gamers and killing the interest from the larger group of gamers that make up the present day. 

 

As you can see telegraphs are a big no no, they were not well-received in wildstar and they are not well-received here. 

 

Artcraft needs to make sure the game takes genuine skill and make people aim their abilities, and no i don't mean just facing within 90 degrees of your target.  It's time to build games with a progressive mindset, take the good you've learned from the past and blend it with what you've learned in the present.  Don't use slow and easy systems that push the skill-ceiling so low that it turns off the modern pvpers. 

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I'm hoping for something similar to Smite in terms of combat. Except with sprinting, blocking, and maybe dodge rolling. And more skills available on your hotbar. I'd like the camera to be restricted as well. I like over-the-shoulder type 3rd person the most. "3rd person-in-the-sky" type cameras are just way too out there, allowing you to see TOO much imo. Sorta takes you away from the experience. If you want to see more of the battlefield, you should find a good vantage point.

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I agree with most of this except with the GW2 dodging thing. The dodges in GW2 are actually iframes so if you time them correctly you can avoid literally every single attack (and skills don't do damage until they come into contact with a target). It's just not easy to time those with how the skills work in that game. This video explains it better, but I do agree that in general I preferred how TERA handled dodging (and blocking). 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

 

I like the idea of punishing poor combat decision via animation locks (like how fighting games work). I was going to offer a compromise of perhaps not 100% rooting the character, but maybe dropping speed down to 25%. However, after watching this video, it's clear that "rooting" isn't even a real thing in Tera. I'm all for a system like Tera.

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Even if the others systems are good, since in MMOs the majority of what you are going to be doing is combat...

 

Ummm what? In a player run economy, if the game is badly designed then yeah I would agree. In EVE I'm able to play for dozens of hours and not fire more than a couple shots at npc's let alone players. I'm sure there a many people interested in Crowfall that want to do something similar, PvP is more than just hitting each other in the face with big swords.

 

People also seem to be forgetting that neither Tera or Wildstar have collision detection and friendly fire, those two additions alone drastically change the playing field and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

 

Who here has first hand experience in an Action combat multiplayer RPG with both collision detection and friendly fire?

Can you please lets us here know what your experience was like in that type of PvP environment. 

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I liked what I saw in the video.  I think we should give it a try and give feedback if something is missing or doesn't feel right.  Jumping to conclusions about something we have never tried is a waste of time.

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I like the idea of punishing poor combat decision via animation locks (like how fighting games work). I was going to offer a compromise of perhaps not 100% rooting the character, but maybe dropping speed down to 25%. However, after watching this video, it's clear that "rooting" isn't even a real thing in Tera. I'm all for a system like Tera.

 

Yeah players aren't "rooted" all the time in Tera because each attack animation has a degree of movement included in it, some skills, namely caster skills, do still sometimes root you in place for the duration. With the addition of collision detection it means that if you aim well that movement is stopped by pushing against your target, if you custard up and miss for whatever reason your character continues to move in a straight line for the duration of the attack. This allows people to dodge your attack and line up a counter attack before your first attack finishes it's animation, iirc you can also interrupt your own attack animation using a dodge mechanic but those dodge's have a charge and CD system so you can't just spam it all the time.

 

Tera's system is also more tolerable of higher pings and one can still be somewhat competitive with pings around <100-150ms, FPS/TPS style skill based combat is nowhere near as tolerable to high pings. This is an MMO not everyone will have sub 50ms latency.

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Ummm what? In a player run economy, if the game is badly designed then yeah I would agree. In EVE I'm able to play for dozens of hours and not fire more than a couple shots at npc's let alone players. I'm sure there a many people interested in Crowfall that want to do something similar, PvP is more than just hitting each other in the face with big swords.

 

People also seem to be forgetting that neither Tera or Wildstar have collision detection and friendly fire, those two additions alone drastically change the playing field and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

 

Who here has first hand experience in an Action combat multiplayer RPG with both collision detection and friendly fire?

Can you please lets us here know what your experience was like in that type of PvP environment. 

 

I tried to play eve, I did not find the game play at all fun. I would say that the majority of players are going to play a combat classes. So if the combat is not fun and engaging the games not really going to have the population needed to have the system of the hunger that they are talking about. The games devs seem to understand that having a system like Tera's is very fun and many people like it. It is the best showcase of great MMORPG Action oriented combat. It just sucks that the rest of the game falls into the normal Asian game trappings. These being the horrible RNG, the endless grind, being all gear based and the lack of an player impact on the world.

 

You are also getting to the whole point of the discussion, I would think that is what players are wanting a game that has the combat of Tera, the player driven content and freedom of Eve with both Collision and Friendly Fire. 

 

 

Edited by KuroAka

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developers nowadays have no balls.

 

 

not a single FPSMMO on the market.. except for slow fps mortal online and darkfall uw which is crap

 

FPSmmo should look  like this 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG6QDsAfLTQ

or maybe its because developers have brains.

 

FPS in an MMO makes ZERO sense. You work for months to build and tweak and perfect your character. It is a fine tuned creation of your imagination coupled with the hundreds of hours of work you put into game time. FPS's genre rely on twitch. For twitch to be meaningful, you must necessarily reduce pvp encounters to no more than a few seconds, otherwise twitch FPS would have no bearing if it took 2 minutes of "TWITCH FPS" to kill a guy. The genre's dont play well together, since after inputting so much time, we dont want our roleplay creation to get blown up in a headshot from a guy with 30 less ping than you.  There are plenty of FPS games out there. There have also been plenty of MMO's that have tried to mix the two and failed. Crowfall has openly stated what they are, and what they wish to become. They have also had the balls to tell people like you that Crowfall might not be for "you". They appear to be very adamant about maintaining their original vision, and as such, you should probably stop wasting your time trying to mold this game into something you want, and instead, go find something else.

 

Tom Clancy's The Division might be more up your alley.

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or maybe its because developers have brains.

 

FPS in an MMO makes ZERO sense. You work for months to build and tweak and perfect your character. It is a fine tuned creation of your imagination coupled with the hundreds of hours of work you put into game time. FPS's genre rely on twitch. For twitch to be meaningful, you must necessarily reduce pvp encounters to no more than a few seconds, otherwise twitch FPS would have no bearing if it took 2 minutes of "TWITCH FPS" to kill a guy. The genre's dont play well together, since after inputting so much time, we dont want our roleplay creation to get blown up in a headshot from a guy with 30 less ping than you.  There are plenty of FPS games out there. There have also been plenty of MMO's that have tried to mix the two and failed. Crowfall has openly stated what they are, and what they wish to become. They have also had the balls to tell people like you that Crowfall might not be for "you". They appear to be very adamant about maintaining their original vision, and as such, you should probably stop wasting your time trying to mold this game into something you want, and instead, go find something else.

 

Tom Clancy's The Division might be more up your alley.

 

have you ever played an fpsmmo?

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yea, that video is EXACTLY why no one makes those games. Two carbon copy spam jumping asshats casting the same exact sequence of skills at each other over and over, and in the exact same order. All the while trying to circle strafe and "dodge" by using "skillfull" erratic movements. Funny how i bet that game doesnt have a skill that does asstons of dmg when moving. 

 

sidenote, lets get some moderation and have his irrelevant video links to other games removed.

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or maybe its because developers have brains.

 

FPS in an MMO makes ZERO sense. You work for months to build and tweak and perfect your character. It is a fine tuned creation of your imagination coupled with the hundreds of hours of work you put into game time. FPS's genre rely on twitch. For twitch to be meaningful, you must necessarily reduce pvp encounters to no more than a few seconds, otherwise twitch FPS would have no bearing if it took 2 minutes of "TWITCH FPS" to kill a guy. The genre's dont play well together, since after inputting so much time, we dont want our roleplay creation to get blown up in a headshot from a guy with 30 less ping than you.  There are plenty of FPS games out there. There have also been plenty of MMO's that have tried to mix the two and failed. Crowfall has openly stated what they are, and what they wish to become. They have also had the balls to tell people like you that Crowfall might not be for "you". They appear to be very adamant about maintaining their original vision, and as such, you should probably stop wasting your time trying to mold this game into something you want, and instead, go find something else.

 

Tom Clancy's The Division might be more up your alley.

 

Well this isn't FPS so... Also neither is The Division. Do you not understand the difference? Just because something is Action does not mean its twitch FPS. You seem to be missing the whole conversation. I find it funny when people say these things, do people live under rocks only play one game in a genre and any other game in that genre doesn't exist? There are many FPS games that are not "twitch". Say that having an MMO FPS makes no sense is a bit odd. Since there are a lot of MMO FPS, COD, Battlefield, Halo, Rainbow 6, Destiny. Pretty much any FPS game that has Multiplayer. Now if you meant MMORPG, but even then there is at least one, I can think of two Destiny and ESO. 

 

What is the problem with linking to other games? It is a much easier way to give as an example then trying to explain it. They are only using the videos to express their opinions. You also talk about the game not being for some people. Well since pretty much the majority are talking about an Action oriented combat and even the devs stating that they are going more to it. Made you are looking in the wrong place and you should go find a new game. They have said this game is not for everyone. 

 

I would suggest that you should remove yourself from the discussion. You seem to not have any knowledge of the topic and you are just raging to rage. When everyone else is having a discussion. If anything a Mod should be looking at you and stopping you from infecting an otherwise civil conversation.   

Edited by KuroAka

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Well this isn't FPS so... Also neither is The Division. Do you not understand the difference? Just because something is Action does not mean its twitch FPS. You seem to be missing the whole conversation. I find it funny when people say these things, do people live under rocks only play one game in a genre and any other game in that genre doesn't exist? There are many FPS games that are not "twitch". Say that having an MMO FPS makes no sense is a bit odd. Since there are a lot of MMO FPS, COD, Battlefield, Halo, Rainbow 6, Destiny. Pretty much any FPS game that has Multiplayer. Now if you meant MMORPG, but even then there is at least one, I can think of two Destiny and ESO. 

 

What is the problem with linking to other games? It is a much easier way to give as an example then trying to explain it. They are only using the videos to express their opinions. You also talk about the game not being for some people. Well since pretty much the majority are talking about an Action oriented combat and even the devs stating that they are going more to it. Made you are looking in the wrong place and you should go find a new game. They have said this game is not for everyone. 

 

I would suggest that you should remove yourself from the discussion. You seem to not have any knowledge of the topic and you are just raging to rage. When everyone else is having a discussion. If anything a Mod should be looking at you and stopping you from infecting an otherwise civil conversation.   

That's precisely the problem, people have not played enough games to understand what's out there and what kind of standards are there in today's games. 

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Ummm what? In a player run economy, if the game is badly designed then yeah I would agree. In EVE I'm able to play for dozens of hours and not fire more than a couple shots at npc's let alone players. I'm sure there a many people interested in Crowfall that want to do something similar, PvP is more than just hitting each other in the face with big swords.

 

People also seem to be forgetting that neither Tera or Wildstar have collision detection and friendly fire, those two additions alone drastically change the playing field and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

 

Who here has first hand experience in an Action combat multiplayer RPG with both collision detection and friendly fire?

Can you please lets us here know what your experience was like in that type of PvP environment. 

 

TERA definitely has collision detection. As for friendly fire, no not really. Since there are no factions and you can technically kill anyone not in your guild (or be killed at any time too), they have a PvP toggle to turn off friendly fire when you don't want to kill people. Just turn it on to intentionally PK. But no it's not a FF game where you have to always pay attention. Collision detection absolutely though lol. I have played other games briefly that had friendly fire and to be honest I find it to be a pain without a big enough benefit to make it fun. I'd rather do without it if given the chance.

Edited by leiloni

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My two cents on the matter:

 

Action combat should not have telegraphs in a serious game.  As others have noted, they are basically designed to make games easier and thus appeal to a broader audience.  Crowfall is a serious game which is not looking to appeal to a broad audience, so no telegraphs please.

 

I have played many of the currently available action combat games, and in my experience, if there are telegraphs, you end up just watching the telegraphs instead of everything else that is going on, which is certainly not how it should be.  I want to play the game, not the interface.

 

Not to focus on the negative however, the two games that come to mind for me when thinking of action combat done right (not perfect, mind you, but better than everything else) are Tera and Vindictus.  Neither game used telegraphs.  You, the player, had to judge if you were close enough to land that hit (or far away enough to dodge the incoming one).  I seem to recall that Vindictus didn't even have a crosshair to aim with, you just had to learn your character's skills and range.  That's what we're looking for in Crowfall isn't it?  A game where player skill matters?

 

Let me end with this example to try to tie things up.  Imagine that you need to chop some wood (in real life).  You haven't used an axe much or at least not in a good long while.  At first your swings will be reasonably accurate, so long as you focus on what you're doing, but a fair number will not strike precisely where you intended.  Sometimes you will miss altogether.  (Good thing no one is watching.)  However, the more time you spend chopping wood the better you are able to strike where you intended to.  In other words, you practiced and got better at something by learning it.  Why should a character in a game be any different?  Sure my first few hours in the game might be awkward as I'm learning my character, but then I keep at it and I get better as a player.  I don't need telegraphs, aim assists, or any other form of hand holding - not because I'm some sort of elite player, becasue I'm not by any stretch of the imagination.  Those are simply distractions that take away from the enjoyment of playing the game.

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