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Wildstar Action Combat?


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We've seen a change from tab targeting into directional aiming in the recent years but I'm basically waiting for the next step which is going to be FPS / free aiming.

 

There's a game for you.  It's called Chivalry: Medieval Warfare or something.

Edited by Tepid
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First, I'm gonna say that you guys are awesome.  This is exactly the kind of passion we here in the office have about the game and we love seeing it from you guys as well.   Now, I am working on the

I'm going to pull this from the Combat FAQ which we updated this morning.    "In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs.

This is why we have begun to head towards the Tera end of the combat spectrum.  Their combat looks great, however the price you pay is animation locking.  The worry about long animation locks is why w

Many people felt that way. Better too twitchy than too slow, IMO.

 

I think a game like Chivalry has the best of all worlds. Not that twitchy; you move like a real medieval knight would. But you still have to aim, block, parry, feint, dodge, position yourself, etc. A lot of strategy and tactics are involved.

 

A new MMO, Reign of Kings, appears to be aiming for that style of combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSlmGCqbug

 

Interesting, but unfortunately seems this game will be another 64 vs 64 instanced co-op, mean pratically a single player game with multiplayer features. Also i hate FPV.

 

DF combat was a blast, very fluid, responsive and you feel in control with your character, to avoid more lag they should just slow down a bit.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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I was about to buy the Gold Patron backer option, but watched the intro video first and realized they might be implementing telegraphs.  Telegraphs broke Wildstar for anyone without low latency.  If they do this, GG for finding players in Oceania or other remote locations after the first frustrating month of being dodged and owned.  

 

This game has so much potential and excitement behind it.  Don't implement a feature that was one of the downfalls of another game, learn from it.  Please.

 

This is the primary reason for why I haven't backed this game yet.

 

Action combat isn't bad and I fully support action combat in this game and other MMO's, the industry need to move forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGzzS1jGJc

The problem is the need for low latency with action combat combined with the fact that most developers and publishers ignore us down here in SEA. If there is an announcement confirming a geographically located Oceanic/SEA server then I've got a few hundred dollars to show my support but as it stands now I'd be somewhat of an idiot to financially back a game in which I've little to no chance to play competitively.

 

ACE if you want to tap into the SEA/Oceanic market then address this issue because until you do, most of us down here with more than half a brain that want to support you will simply right this game off as latency dependent and thus out of reach. SEA/Oceania regions has a population of over 600 million people btw.

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There is a really large playerbase looking for a harsh skill based game ( that is essentially eve - just with good combat ). By trying to appeal to the wow/wildstar group and the eve/sandbox group at the same time the game is just gonna fall short for either one of those groups, like so many other games before that.

 

So pls, have a look at this combat system again.. Im not saying it has to be fps based ( altough ever since DFO that is my favorite type ). But pls for the love of god not a telegraph based system.

 

Also why you are at it, have a look at:

 

- Full loot

- A persistent world where you can fight sandbox style -> EK just looks like sims online so far -> also only consensual pvp???

Edited by Vyore
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Wow, I just verified what yal are talking about with animation locking...

.......Really, all the leets in here talking about free aim and animation locking is too hard for you?

 

I like it.

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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There are quite a lot of differences with wildstar. You could only avoid the toughest hits from monsters, there was no physics in the game and group combat relied on healers to handle the white damage or when you failed to dodge a projection. The problem with wildstar was that players created way too big telegraphs so it quickly became a sea of red and blue, and I would like to see moderate use of them.

 

While people could argue that forcing people to look for animations makes the game require more skills you don't really have the chance to do it when there are bigger battles. Every class has a myriad of skills to choose from and good luck notice them all in combat. What projections really do is gives you a better chance to avoid stuff, particularly in big battles.

 

Animation locks are important regardless. If you remove them completely there are no consequences for your actions, and it really becomes about hitting your attacks the fastest, sort of like melee characters spamming their attack buttons the quickest while bunny jumping around. Free aim without physics means fights becomes more about latency and hand/eye coordination, and less about skillful gameplay.

 

A PvP game where your attacks can have negative consequences and could be avoided more easily requires far more skill than a game where its mostly about landing your attacks as fast as possible. I still prefer the tera approach though.

Edited by shaigh
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I think they can find a middle ground between animation lock and moving during actions, they could allow severely reduced movement, or allow you to move in a specific direction with certain attacks and archetypes.

 

Really, I feel that every kind of behavior can be explored with different archetypes to increase the identity and uniqueness, but I feel Tera pretty much has it right except where projectiles are used. Still, maybe a lot less movement and smaller strike patterns would allow a much tighter and less weightless sensation. I feel it's a huge disservice to Fae and the potential for good flight content when characters are sliding around like ice skaters and double jumping, OMG please stop it!

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I'm going to pull this from the Combat FAQ which we updated this morning. 

 

"In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

 

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences – chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

 

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking."

 

What is wrong with FPS aiming?  Why are Dev's so afraid of it?  Why does Twitch = bad? 

~ the one and only ~

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A lot of people who haven't played a lot of action combat games keep saying this and it doesn't have to be that hard. I don't think a lot of us want Darkfall type FPS gameplay when we say action combat. We want aiming/dodging/blocking to mean something (and like some others have said, let us aim vertically and any other direction) but it doesn't have to be overly difficult to do so. If done right, combat can be skillful yes, but more easy to get into, hard to master type of thing.

I just want to echo this.

 

While myself and others seem to advocate Darkfall FPS style combat.. we aren't saying that it should be exclusively twitch based and absolutely rapid.  Just make it something that isn't so slow that it becomes dull.  We want it to be engaging and thrilling.  The speed of the pvp in Darkfall only truly came into play in small scale fights.  When it came down to sieges and conquest, it was all about strategy.  Planning and execution were far more important than having 1 or 2 really good pvp'rs.  The telegraph system always felt like it put more focus on initiation rather than reaction, which is already ripping out a large component of what makes combat skilful.

 

That was the beauty of Darkfalls system.  You could watch the top tier players having duels in tournaments and really enjoy it... but then when it came time to siege, those good players were just cogs in the overall wheel and had to perform like everyone else.

 

 

 

 

What is wrong with FPS aiming?  Why are Dev's so afraid of it?  Why does Twitch = bad? 

I made a post earlier in the thread comparing that to a time when Full Loot was considered bad and it was a system that people were afraid to try out.  I believe this is something similar.

 

 

 

 

I think it's worth noting that between now and the forecast release date in 2 years time, we can have something that everyone is happy with.  

ACE seem to be very open minded when it comes to this game as they truly believe in it.  So there is some comfort in that, I find.

Edited by KoKane

It's called Crowfall because calling it "The Hunger Game of Thrones" would have raised too many issues.

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The threshold for twitch is so low for some people.  Games like darkfall and tera and WoW and gw2 and wildstar are not twitch.  Those are very tame systems.  Sure they aren't as slow as a game like shadowbane, but they are nowhere near FPS games so to call them fps twitch is hyperbolic. 

 

I am really glad to see so many people speaking up against telegraphs.  The worst mistake artcraft can make is catering the game to really antiquated gamers and killing the interest from the larger group of gamers that make up the present day. 

 

As you can see telegraphs are a big no no, they were not well-received in wildstar and they are not well-received here. 

 

Artcraft needs to make sure the game takes genuine skill and make people aim their abilities, and no i don't mean just facing within 90 degrees of your target.  It's time to build games with a progressive mindset, take the good you've learned from the past and blend it with what you've learned in the present.  Don't use slow and easy systems that push the skill-ceiling so low that it turns off the modern pvpers. 

 

Agreed 100%. Especially the bold. Though I'm not also not happy with the overly animated "whirlwind" attacks and unrealistic "jumping" in full plate. So much for encumberence I guess. 

 

I just want a system that requires active aiming, is not dumbed-down and has "realistic looking" mechanics.

.

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What is wrong with FPS aiming?  Why are Dev's so afraid of it?  Why does Twitch = bad? 

 

In an MMORPG environment it's bad because twitch mechanics overemphasize hand/eye co-ordination and lessen the effect of skill-points, remember a defining attribute of RPG's is skill-point based progression, without it it's not an RPG.

 

If winning is mostly determined by who has better hand/eye co-ordination then why have skill-points and abilities in the first place? If there isn't skill-points and abilities then it's not an RPG anymore, Crowfall is a hybrid MMORPG/RTS.

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In an MMORPG environment it's bad because twitch mechanics overemphasize hand/eye co-ordination and lessen the effect of skill-points, remember a defining attribute of RPG's is skill-point based progression, without it it's not an RPG.

 

If winning is mostly determined by who has better hand/eye co-ordination then why have skill-points and abilities in the first place? If there isn't skill-points and abilities then it's not an RPG anymore, Crowfall is a hybrid MMORPG/RTS.

 

e.g. you and others think that mmos should not be skill based but time based

 

hint: just because this has been the way in the past doesnt mean it has to stay this way forever

 

fps based mmos can be both

Edited by Vyore
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What is wrong with FPS aiming?  Why are Dev's so afraid of it?  Why does Twitch = bad? 

It's got nothing about being afraid or not, that's just silly.

It more about finding the right tool for the job, the right combat system for the majority of their audience.

 

Having a game too focused on twitch becomes overly geared towards a younger demographic.  Being a niche title already, narrowing their audience even more isn't wise.

I'm getting older, my reactions aren't quite as good as they used to be, if they were ever that good.  I neither have the time nor the patience to train to get a faster reaction time just to be competitive in a video game.  I'd rather just play another game.

 

I'd rather have a game more about tactics and strategy, with weighty actions that I can think through in real time.  More of the Dark Souls and Monster Hunter line of gameplay.  Heck, even Tera would fit.

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PRE-ALPHA GAME FOOTAGE

 

Wrong mentality, developers will never invest in a gameplay design which they plan not to stick with if they develop it to the point where it's already in the game and their testing it - it's a colossal waste of time and money to take something on paper then place it in game for testing if you have no plans to stick with the design unless the fanbase itself is opposed to it.  Fans need to speak up and say no for them to change things, or they'll stick with it, they already invested time and money into it.

Edited by Synast

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Because there are colored things on the ground it's wildstar?

 

@Oberon the colours thing on the ground need to go - u reveal your attack moves to the entire world

what u gunna do next in PvP. I'm no fan of it even if it looks cool, and they could add minor effects on blades hit blades instead or shield. 

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Having had watched that Wildstar video, yeah, they took telegraphing to a whole different level.

You don't need to show off a disco party every time a skill is let off.  Telegraphing the animations and skills are enough without the damage vectors being shown also.

 

Ie, SMITE.

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