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mysticque

Fury class

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On 11/29/2019 at 5:58 PM, mysticque said:

do you guys have plans to implement Fury class as well? That's what made SB so good then.

a lot of things made SB great. This isnt even close to SB

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The Templar class has a Fury promotion "class" option but is nothing compared to the SB version.

Unfortunately combat is rather shallow (IMO) without any real use of debuffs/buffs or things that aren't DPS or CC. More power is put into gear (grinding) then actual strategy during combat.

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19 minutes ago, APE said:

Unfortunately combat is rather shallow (IMO) without any real use of debuffs/buffs or things that aren't DPS or CC.

Not sure if you actually play, but you should look into using debuffs if you aren't. They make a big difference.


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5 hours ago, APE said:

Unfortunately combat is rather shallow (IMO) without any real use of debuffs/buffs or things that aren't DPS or CC. More power is put into gear (grinding) then actual strategy during combat.

Not true at all. CC is very important in current meta. It takes a lot more coordination within your group to make it meaningful compared to most games. A single person isn’t going to stun-lock someone (this is a very good thing imo).

Debuffs are vital to winning an even fight. You can instantly tell who is and is not running a debuff train. Probably not going to kill a healer without them. And you’re going to really struggle to kill a group with a single descent healer  

The groups (really just 1 group) doing both very well are insta deleting everyone. Just fight them and you’ll see how unshallow it really is  

As for gear, the curve is really flattened out. It does take well crafted blue gear to reach caps. But you can be competitive with good play in war tribe gear. Gear power imo is in a good place. 

Edited by oneply

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10 hours ago, Jah said:

Not sure if you actually play, but you should look into using debuffs if you aren't. They make a big difference.

I haven't been playing as I'm waiting for the next update to see if I should bother anymore, but could you be more specific to what debuffs people are using?

Horsey armor break, plague lord, troub, and a couple others. Doesn't really seem as diverse as other games I've played.

I'm not lumping CC and Debuffs together if that was unclear.

5 hours ago, oneply said:

Not true at all.

Same as above.

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13 hours ago, APE said:

I haven't been playing as I'm waiting for the next update to see if I should bother anymore, but could you be more specific to what debuffs people are using?

Horsey armor break, plague lord, troub, and a couple others. Doesn't really seem as diverse as other games I've played.

I'm not lumping CC and Debuffs together if that was unclear.

Same as above.

Escape Artist, Shield Breaker, Pixie, etc. Theres a decent amount of group play if you look for it/want to min/max.

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12 hours ago, Zatch said:

Escape Artist, Shield Breaker, Pixie, etc. Theres a decent amount of group play if you look for it/want to min/max.

I agree there is group play, but just isn't as deep as I prefer. This is due to the lack of power types/options, limited bar size, class options, etc. Just the way it's designed which isn't bad, but other games have offered more. No real non-Dps/heal roles to fill for support/cc/debuffer/buffers, etc. Lots of flavors of DPS and CC tacked on along with the required healers which have a small pool to choose from.

In the moment I can't choose from XYZ debuffs to play against a particular individual or team comp. With every choice, our options are limited so that it turns into whatever is meta, broke, OP floating to the top. This can be seen in plenty of games/genres. Game gets stale, devs intervene, new meta, repeat. Again, isn't bad but limits on-going creativity as it usually hits a wall until magically someone finds something no one has tried or devs change the game.

Once XYZ comp is constructed it all comes down to the limitations it has. Can't step outside the box in the moment. Compared to games that have more tools available across the board and allow more experimenting and on-going choices. I only played Shadowbane briefly, but I believe this is part of what people enjoyed about it.

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3 hours ago, APE said:

No real non-Dps/heal roles to fill for support/cc/debuffer/buffers, etc. Lots of flavors of DPS and CC tacked on along with the required healers which have a small pool to choose from.

I mean, thats your opinion dude, we've been running exactly this type of mixed groups for at least the last two campaigns to great success.

 

3 hours ago, APE said:

In the moment I can't choose from XYZ debuffs to play against a particular individual or team comp. With every choice, our options are limited so that it turns into whatever is meta, broke, OP floating to the top.

Yes, its a testing phase, not a polished game, the meta changes frequently enough with fixes/changes so that you can always be testing and figuring out what works/stacks/is crap.

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7 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I mean, thats your opinion dude, we've been running exactly this type of mixed groups for at least the last two campaigns to great success.

That's kind of my point if XYZ have been strong for a good while, why change it up? Especially if there is nothing equal or better to change to?

Curious what class/discipline is being used to be a support/debuffer type role? I don't mean support = healing. Having plague lord doesn't achieve this, even if you slot all 4 options. Everyone in group having 1 debuff doesn't achieve this.

Again, I don't believe it is bad, just as I mentioned earlier, some what shallow. Early on they said this game would have depth/complexity to character building and in turn group comp but I don't see it. Then again I don't play "the game" either. I just log in and check things out, try builds, putter around. Although I can read what class powers/disciplines offer to understand what is available.

7 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Yes, its a testing phase, not a polished game, the meta changes frequently enough with fixes/changes so that you can always be testing and figuring out what works/stacks/is crap.

Would be interesting to get data on which classes, promos, disciplines, powers etc are most/least popular. Will be more interesting when there are thousands logging in.

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1 hour ago, APE said:

That's kind of my point if XYZ have been strong for a good while, why change it up? Especially if there is nothing equal or better to change to?

Curious what class/discipline is being used to be a support/debuffer type role? I don't mean support = healing. Having plague lord doesn't achieve this, even if you slot all 4 options. Everyone in group having 1 debuff doesn't achieve this.

Again, I don't believe it is bad, just as I mentioned earlier, some what shallow. Early on they said this game would have depth/complexity to character building and in turn group comp but I don't see it. Then again I don't play "the game" either. I just log in and check things out, try builds, putter around. Although I can read what class powers/disciplines offer to understand what is available.

Would be interesting to get data on which classes, promos, disciplines, powers etc are most/least popular. Will be more interesting when there are thousands logging in.

I agree with you on this the support & debuffer role is very shallow. The only majors that fufill the debuffer is troubadour & plaguelord at least the support has a few more options in terms of majors  . After that is just random skills sprinkled into other majors.  

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4 minutes ago, MrErad said:

I agree with you on this the support & debuffer role is very shallow. The only majors that fufill the debuffer is troubadour & plaguelord at least the support has a few more options in terms of majors  . After that is just random skills sprinkled into other majors.  

Those random skills sprinkled into other majors as well as the ones you mentioned above, when combined with some of the classes that made it quite high on the Vanguard tier list have fulfilled the debuffing/buffing roles very effectively.  Knockdown CC effects are also very strong in the current meta.

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2 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Those random skills sprinkled into other majors as well as the ones you mentioned above, when combined with some of the classes that made it quite high on the Vanguard tier list have fulfilled the debuffing/buffing roles very effectively.  Knockdown CC effects are also very strong in the current meta.


Correct they do but if you wanted to create lets say a pure debuffing type of character you have 2 choices and thats the extent of it.    Playing a non healing support you have way more options you can bring to the table .  CC, DPS, Healing all have a ton of choices on top of it with options to use debuffs if they choose to.   Granted I do find the majority of the majors to be pretty boring but that could be just me.  Myself I would like to see more things like adjudicator using prosecute for more synergy type of play.

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11 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Those random skills sprinkled into other majors as well as the ones you mentioned above, when combined with some of the classes that made it quite high on the Vanguard tier list have fulfilled the debuffing/buffing roles very effectively.  Knockdown CC effects are also very strong in the current meta.

Most of the few debuffs seem to be broad stroke. Decreasing all healing/armor and knocking someone down so a group can melt them isn't very complex or allow much creativity on either side. Slot ABC, use ABC every time regardless of the enemy comp, repeat. I'm overly simplifying it, but maybe not that much.

Edited by APE

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While there is room for more creativity in the disciplines available, the "meta" has been shifting around quite a bit in the last several campaigns.  Debuff and buff and CC roles meant to enable specific angles of attack are starting to appear.  It's becoming fairly diverse and interesting, imo.  People just have to be unafraid to break the mold and have a group of people willing to assist your idea.

There's been interesting uses of class combos for fire damage trains, "fire bomb" groups, piercing damage trains, anti-Frontline comps with shieldbreaker+troubadour, full ranged fallback/kite comps, pull-into-bomb comps, and more.  There are for sure some core abilities discs you'll see everywhere, like pixie and elementalist, but there's still plenty of room for different builds right now and people are starting to get quite creative.  Most of these builds surround a group strategy of how to get kills, rather then a single player with a specific build enabling an entire style of play.

 

Edited by Dern

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On 12/4/2019 at 12:29 AM, APE said:

IIn the moment I can't choose from XYZ debuffs to play against a particular individual or team comp. With every choice, our options are limited so that it turns into whatever is meta, broke, OP floating to the top. This can be seen in plenty of games/genres. Game gets stale, devs intervene, new meta, repeat. Again, isn't bad but limits on-going creativity as it usually hits a wall until magically someone finds something no one has tried or devs change the game.

 

This sounds like someone who doesnt play the game - could be wrong.  Its the "It's just not good enough for me" rhetoric.  EVERY game develops a meta, its up the the devs to keep things fresh and cycle the metas with balance changes.  But there simply isn't some magical balance where all things are equal.   And this doesn't limit creativity unless you are a meta follower.  Finding the new meta takes alot of creativity and a very sound general knowledge of a games base mechanics.

 

This game has had its meta change even without changes from the devs.  As the compositions change, the (consistently) losing teams will change their comp to give them a bigger chance at winning.  If this works, the meta now changes until the other team can find a way to counter what they are doing.  It keeps going.   This game has VERY customizable charcters with discs.  You can be a defensive support with runecaster, or maybe an offensive support with plague lord.

The basic structure of how all this fits together is pretty nice.  We'll see how they develop it.

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5 hours ago, Ble said:

This game has VERY customizable charcters with discs.  You can be a defensive support with runecaster, or maybe an offensive support with plague lord.

The basic structure of how all this fits together is pretty nice.  We'll see how they develop it.

I agree the basic structure is good, but it needs a decent amount of development still. I disagree that it is VERY customizable. Something like Plague Lord is a no brainer type of choice. Broad stroke anti-heal, anti-magic, anti-armor isn't really creative, be it build a character, team comp, or using in the moment. Changing how passives are applied is a good start, but I hope Disciplines get a look and they start to add in more creative options that require more hard choices.

They've made a long list of stats but powers/disciplines and moment to moment choices don't really make good use of them.

Guess I'd like to see reined in Discilpines sort of like the ones they plan to remove (Mudman/Elementalist) that are specific to types of damage, healing, armor, resists, etc. Not everything in one and broken to the point it makes classes powerless. Along with more use of Barriers, attack speed/dmg buffs and debuffs, range debuffs/buffs, and whatever else can be taken from the long list of stats to mix things up.

IMO Disciplines have too much in some cases and too little in others. Way too many powers have +dmg +CC. Can have just -X% attack power without also hitting for X% as well and then knocking them down. Immunity to XYZ should not exist or be rare.

ACE calls Disciplines "Sub-Classes" and to me it doesn't really change a class, especially when so many can be used by any class or several. In a team comp this is even less meaningful. It's more about that team having FG and less the individual being Class A with Sub Class FG.

Would be interesting to see ACE's data on use of particular Disc and Powers. I'm sure they have it. Would probably support my issue.

I have high standards and you're right it comes down to it not being good enough for me. Lots of potential still and I hope they expand the basic systems. 

Didn't play Shadowbane long but looking at builds and what existed, I'm curious if SB fans find Crowfall's system to be equal in customization. 

Also, where is the missing Advantages & Disadvantages system?

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