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dickbakerscat

Suggestions to make the game more fun

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Welp, I finally gave into my selfish desire to complain about this game (online).. so here it is. I don't have the time to go into some long winded explanation for each. If you play with me in game send me a message in discord or by all means pick up a phone and call if you wanna talk. The phone is that small white rectangle thing you keep with you all the time and and can call your mother with at any given time but you DON'T.

 

To begin, all suggestions are to make the game more fun. What is fun might you ask?  Well, something that is fun can be many things, but it's always entertaining. What is entertaining? Well, that varies from person to person and even more so if your a psychopath. What I'm about to suggest applies to a good portion of people who play games and not those 'gents on the fringe.

-People like to win significant prizes that matter. Think winning a car vs a toothpick.

-People like to progress with their ability to play. You should become better by playing, and rewarded more for doing so well.

-People want to feel like they matter in the game.

-People are more rewarded with victories when losses can result in pursuit of said victories. (Think risk vs reward.)

-The game can't be unwinnable

 

So lets knock these babies down one by one shall we? Okie dokie. 

-When you win a campaign, you gain a strength advantage for the next campaign. I know you like to think of each campaign as a war. Please don't. Think of each as a long battle. Each battle makes the victor harvest better. Hit harder.  Chop quicker. Smell faster. Whatever. Make it strategic and not set. (i.e. different scores or captures enable different bonuses at the end. Spice it up. Whatever you want.) People appreciate cosmetic items. They don't desire them. What everybody wants in a war simulator is to not die, and more importantly, kill whoever is trying to kill you. No fancy hat can replicate that. Make the consequences of losing a campaign matter. Give people a prize gem that makes craftables stronger or a super powerful hat... whatever the marketing department wants.

-While we are on consequences, you need to remove endless respawn. If you die, it should cost gold to resurrect. Each time you die the cost gets higher. When you run out of gold you can't resurrect. I'm not saying your character gets deleted, but If somebody (probably my guild) wants to keep funding your desperate acts of pvp, they can, but it should come at a SIGNIFICANT RESOURCE cost. Every single thing in this game is a resource and finite. Why isn't the most important resource?Your LIFE.

-Passive trainings are an unmitigated trainwreck right now. The system simply doesn't encourage gameplay. Bad. Not trained enough and keep getting zOmgWTFpwnEd 1v1 by "Al-vi-ah"? Just turn off the game Joseph, and wait a month....Hey devs, how bout instead of all that jazz, you make the person play your game and enjoy it, and maybe, well, I dunno... spend some money along the way? Nobody spends money on games they don't play. This new mechanic will force people to get out there and do all of the things they should be doing.. like farming mushrooms, silver ore and "heartwood...." Whatever that is. Want to be a blacksmith? Here's a wild idea. Go blacksmith some stuff! You need to incorporate some sort of active training. I'm not saying passive can't be a part of it, but man is it a drag attaching passive time to anything that's suppose to be immediately entertaining.

-The zerg is out of control. The reason is population. I'm not talking about "hey you need to coordinate better." That's not this. Strategy is important, but when one server has 90 and the other 20..... no secret chant that will win you that battle ducks. Here's the fix, make a reward based system for kills. Something that really really matters. Like honor or something and it gives you access to better craftables. stats, or whatever. (Once again, see marketing department.) Make that resource you gain from kills directly linked to the server population or how many people are in the zone. If my army of 20 drunken misfits kills another poorly coordinated zerg of 100, I better damn well get a huge reward for it, and a lb or two of glory to boot!

-Risk. We need more of it. I know the direction is you drop the contents of your inventory when you die in certain campaigns. Great. I'm thinking you might even drop everything when you die, but then you would drastically rebalance the resource cost of gear. I'm not sure, but right now there's minimal risk for dieing. Minimal risk for farming... and pretty much everything else. Remember. Risk VS Reward. Some serious entertainment can be had through satisfaction, and satisfaction can be had by risking everything for a huge reward. Make it happen! Get creative! Marketing Department!!!

-Balance. Not those clowns on the faction. I'm talking about the zerg again folks.The good 'ol swarm. For Aiur! You need to massively incentivize getting kills on low pop factions devs. Make people WANT to switch sides because of the INSANE benefits they will reap for being victorious. You shouldn't force it, just let it occur naturally. Want excrement rewards? Fight 20 guys with 100. Want the megamillion's jackpot payoff? Defeat Hax 30v5 with a single ballista. (I kid.) Do more with less. It's your choice, and reap the rewards as they come. Even if you don't win the campaign, you should get huge "points" for kills.

-Win conditions are unacceptable right now. I know you're proposing additional routes to victory like crafting or whoever farms the most spruce trees or whatever, (On a side note, please don't do that. Any of that)and I look forward to those being implemented, but right now you can log 100 people strong  on one side and 50 on the other and the smaller force simply can't win. That is not a winnable game and the fun is sucked right out of it like a dyson zerg-vacuum. I've literally logged off pre siege when I saw over triple the numbers on the opposing side and instead picked up the phone and called my mother.

 

To conclude, please do all of these things. Or none of them, I've already bought several copies of the game.

 

Regards,

DickBaker'sCat

Edited by Pann
Changed the title because the original one was rude

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Just some short toughts i had when i read your text.

-I think when you play a game and you are on top and get rewarded is nice. But when you are able to craft (significant) better items or hit harder, just because you won before, the one guild will stay on top and nobody wants to fight them. For factions it will be that everybody will just join the strongest faction. I have seen this before and this is not really working.(The "honor" systems is something they already announced and are working on)

-The risk of loosing items that i wear...... You are not a crafter i assume, but just imagine you are the guildcrafter, and you are in a good guild, and i mean your guys are running around in topnotch EQ. thats nice, but everybody can die when the opponents are just more. So you have to recraft all the items all the time or to be really lucky to kill this guys while he has your EQ. When you have bluegear, thats easy and fast to recraft, but epic or even Legendary, the time and effort you invest to get such items would be a too hugh loss. 

-No really important thoughts on the other points mentioned

Edited by Zirone
Missspelling

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14 hours ago, dickbakerscat said:

1) -When you win a campaign, you gain a strength advantage for the next campaign. 

2) -While we are on consequences, you need to remove endless respawn. If you die, it should cost gold to resurrect. 

3) -Passive trainings are an unmitigated trainwreck right now. The system simply doesn't encourage gameplay. 

4) -The zerg is out of control. The reason is population. I'm not talking about "hey you need to coordinate better." That's not this. Strategy is important, but when one server has 90 and the other 20..... no secret chant that will win you that battle ducks. Here's the fix, make a reward based system for kills. 

5) -Risk. We need more of it. I know the direction is you drop the contents of your inventory when you die in certain campaigns. Great. I'm thinking you might even drop everything when you die, but then you would drastically rebalance the resource cost of gear. 

6) -Balance. Not those clowns on the faction. I'm talking about the zerg again folks.The good 'ol swarm. For Aiur! You need to massively incentivize getting kills on low pop factions devs. 

7) -Win conditions are unacceptable right now. I know you're proposing additional routes to victory like crafting or whoever farms the most spruce trees or whatever, (On a side note, please don't do that. Any of that)and I look forward to those being implemented, but right now you can log 100 people strong  on one side and 50 on the other and the smaller force simply can't win. That is not a winnable game and the fun is sucked right out of it like a dyson zerg-vacuum. I've literally logged off pre siege when I saw over triple the numbers on the opposing side and instead picked up the phone and called my mother.

1) This game has been designed from the very beginning with the idea of eliminating the Uncle Bob scenario, which happens when a team wins, gets stronger as a result, and therefore is more likely the win the next time. Eventually they become so strong that they can't be beaten and everyone else quits. This is a lesson Todd learned from Shadowbane. Don't expect to see any significant advantages afforded to winning teams in new campaigns. At one time they mentioned the possibility of special campaigns (tournaments) that would pit winning guilds against each other.

2) This is a terrible, terrible idea. You'll have people begging for gold so they can rez and when they can't, they'll quit.

3) It's funny that you say it doesn't encourage gameplay, given your prior suggestion. There are some changes coming to the skills, and catch up mechanics. It isn't the problem some people make it out to be.

4) At some point, populations should be a lot larger across all servers. Hopefully we'll see much larger numbers for 5.110 and we can more accurately evaluate the imbalances then. Todd has talked about this in the past and is reluctant to add things that would buff the smaller group. I can't remember exactly what he said about it, but you can go back through the Q&As if you want.

5) Campaigns can have different rules. Some may drop nothing, like the Infected, just inventory like the current campaigns, or everything. If campaigns where players drop everything are popular enough, then there will be plenty of campaigns available with that ruleset. 

6) Same as #4. Let's wait until the population is higher to see what sort of changes are needed.

7) Same as #4 and #6. 5.110 is going to change a lot. We need to see how that plays out before they make too many balance changes.

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6 hours ago, Arkade said:

1) This game has been designed from the very beginning with the idea of eliminating the Uncle Bob scenario

That doesn't mean squat. This game was designed from the very beginning with the idea of no rng loot drops from mobs, no leveling and no grind for the sake of grind. We all know how those things played out...

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29 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

That doesn't mean squat. This game was designed from the very beginning with the idea of no rng loot drops from mobs, no leveling and no grind for the sake of grind. We all know how those things played out...

The rng loot drops from mobs, the leveling, and the leveling-related grind are pretty insignificant. They really haven't changed the nature of the game.

The main anti-uncle-bob feature of Crowfall, from the beginning, was the fact that campaigns end. That remains a fundamental part of Crowfall.

Yes, they said no leveling, and then they added leveling. On the surface, that appears to be a major reversal. But only on the surface. Look a little more closely and the fact remains this game is not a level-grind game. You are making a lot out of a little.

Edited by Jah

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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

You are making a lot out of a little.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. What you consider as insignificant might not be for many others.

I do agree that having campaigns ending is one part of crowfall that hasn't changed. As for how effective it will be combating uncle bob will depend upon how the gameplay is at launch, simply too many systems not fleshed out yet to see. 

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Respectfully gonna disagree with many of the suggestions here, they are all 100% grind and PvP based which doesn't serve up balance to the entire population.   This is more for the poster, than addressing the devs, since I have faith that they understand success equals pleasing the experience of the entire player base and not simply those that endlessly PvP and leave the rest of the work to others or just pleasing the no lifers.  The leveling Grind is short and sweet, worse than no grind at all imo but not game breaking until you get to trying to upgrade Disciplines to go in high end vessels, that needs some fixing.   We have PvP focused types like this guy asking to make his gameplay supreme just like we get PvE fans asking for more Mob based gear acquisition or even, gack, quest chains.  At the end of the day, please just make the game we backed, low grind factor, high fun factor, gank danger everywhere, campaigns that end with a winner who gets no new significant advantages.  With passive skills the game can control the pace of advancement and power gain, active skill gain blows that all out.   This player wants that removed strictly so that he can undercut that pace which should be standard across the board for all players.   A level playing field isn't his goal.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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While I don't entirely agree with all the concerns or suggestions, I do with the overall intention.

I've typed out Risk vs Reward more times then I can count.

For a "Throne War Sim" promoting itself as something with a lot of strategy, PVP, meaningful choices, blah blah, I don't see a lot of Risk vs Reward.

Grind the most, bring the most players, have older accounts, have more accounts, etc will likely go a long way to victory.

Will have to see what the next update brings, but seems to be little reason to attempt to make things more challenges. As in, running a smaller unit of skilled members up against a larger force. If rewards don't reflect effort, why bother beyond personal pride? Bragging rights and pride have value, but the shiny loot or whatever more tangible reward is likely what many what to shove in the face of others.

Maybe they can change embargo, loot options and other knobs to have extra risk campaigns, but would need rewards to counter balance.

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16 hours ago, Arkade said:

1) This game has been designed from the very beginning with the idea of eliminating the Uncle Bob scenario, which happens when a team wins, gets stronger as a result, and therefore is more likely the win the next time. Eventually they become so strong that they can't be beaten and everyone else quits. This is a lesson Todd learned from Shadowbane. Don't expect to see any significant advantages afforded to winning teams in new campaigns.

Except campaigns ending and limited exports don't really shake things up all that much. We have months/years of campaigns and trials as examples of this.

Whatever led to a victory probably wasn't dumb luck. The idea that a winning force will some how not repeat what they did or not improve based on whatever they obtained from the previous campaign doesn't make much sense.

Losing sides do have a chance to improve as well, but they are already starting at whatever disadvantage they had in the first place unless major changes happened in their favor between campaigns.

This is why competitive games of whatever nature have leaderboards, ranking, mmr, etc. We aren't all starting at an equal place and advance differently.

It can't be simplified or solved by just ending a campaign. That specific scenario is over, but the contributing factors will continue on to the next ones.

This is likely why competitive games are massively more popular then MMOs, especially open world PVP MMOs like this one. People love to compete, but not when there is close to zero structure. The unfairness is why I like these types of games, but I don't pretend Uncle Bob won't enjoy his time here as well.

9 hours ago, Jah said:

The rng loot drops from mobs, the leveling, and the leveling-related grind are pretty insignificant. They really haven't changed the nature of the game.

The main anti-uncle-bob feature of Crowfall, from the beginning, was the fact that campaigns end. That remains a fundamental part of Crowfall.

Yes, they said no leveling, and then they added leveling. On the surface, that appears to be a major reversal. But only on the surface. Look a little more closely and the fact remains this game is not a level-grind game. You are making a lot out of a little.

If I can avoid leveling completely that would be one thing but I can't. So it is "pretty significant" to me. The higher the character quality the more significant it becomes. If they make it easier to do other non-PVE grindy activities to advance then it wouldn't be an issue. Time gating training is also significant with the added active progression systems. Unlike games where I am in control of my active progression, I also have to deal with the clock.

To be fair they weren't extremely detailed with the original concept, but what it has become doesn't exactly match up and it has developed into something a bit different.

As I mentioned above, campaigns ending doesn't seem to be that anti-bob. More of a speed bump. Compared to a lobby type game where everyone starts fresh, Crowfall's persistence and building of high vertical power over time definitely isn't hurting bobby.

6 hours ago, Frykka said:

At the end of the day, please just make the game we backed, low grind factor, high fun factor, gank danger everywhere, campaigns that end with a winner who gets no new significant advantages.  With passive skills the game can control the pace of advancement and power gain, active skill gain blows that all out.   This player wants that removed strictly so that he can undercut that pace which should be standard across the board for all players.   A level playing field isn't his goal.

Not sure what games you've played, but MMOs are grindy by nature and Crowfall isn't cutting down on this at all. If anything it is more grindy depending on the comparison or system.

Gank danger isn't danger unless you aren't smart about running with numbers and holding too much at a time. If there was full loot, that would be quite different but seems that is too harsh for those that want a harsh game.

The early concepts of victor rewards seemed to aim at giving winners more exports with some examples being 100% and losers 0%, which I'd like to see in whatever forms. If winning is relatively unrewarding beyond cosmetics or bragging, might not compel people to try all too much (looks at past campaigns).

If the game wasn't so grindy and there wasn't an active progression system on top of passive, I'd agree that it works, but it doesn't really help create a level playing field. It rewards those with older accounts without a decent catch up mechanic, which defeats the purpose of having time gated progression in the first place.

Active systems put the power in the player hands while time gating removes it. If things weren't so vertical and didn't take so long this would be less of a problem. Grind out whatever relatively swiftly and be competitive in whatever role. Instead it can take a good chunk of time to get there. One rewards skill, effort, and playing the game and the other rewards date of purchase.

Passive training only levels the field against everyone else passive training. It's a solution for the problem it creates. All the other aspects of play are about grinding and actively playing. There is nothing fair or standard across the board. Someone that logs in rarely might have training to craft, but won't have any idea what to do or the resources to do it. Actively playing like every other game is required to advance. Then again there will be all those alt accounts sitting around training as well...very fair.

Edited by APE

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-First of all, wtf? leveling takes nearly no time, normally when you get a blue purple or even yellow vessel you normally should have leveling scrolls to get the character up. it never took me more than a few hours to get a vessel to 30. That's nothing.

 

-You all wanna gank and kill guys and loot them. That's cool, but you must admin, there must be something to grind otherwise you can just play any arena game because there will be nothing to steal from other players, because than it is literally only arena, nobody would farm or harvest anything.

 

-The "grind" you all are talking about is a joke. I have played other games and i think most of the other people have have too. Grind in the normal MMO is on another level. to get legendary you have to farm a few days.... WOW. When i remember my old days of *zensor* I had to farm weeks or month to get just "good" equipment not even max.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Zirone said:

-The "grind" you all are talking about is a joke. I have played other games and i think most of the other people have have too. Grind in the normal MMO is on another level.

I love how ACE development partners always jump right in defending most every messed up part of this game. Doesn't matter if this game has little PvE mechanics other then the grind, its constantly compared with themepark PvE mmo's to justify anything. I would like to point out that the playerbase has been pretty lackluster the past years, unlike most other games in development, perhaps there are reasons for this.

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6 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I love how ACE development partners always jump right in defending most every messed up part of this game. Doesn't matter if this game has little PvE mechanics other then the grind, its constantly compared with themepark PvE mmo's to justify anything. I would like to point out that the playerbase has been pretty lackluster the past years, unlike most other games in development, perhaps there are reasons for this.

I"m not an ACE development partner and I think they are right. This grind is NOTHING.

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@APE There is no doubt that a group that wins one campaign is more likely to find success in future campaigns. As it is in sports, a team with better players is more likely to win, by definition. But, that scenario is not Uncle Bob. Uncle Bob would be: you won the Super Bowl last year, so you start every game this year already winning 7-0. That is what the OP is suggesting (though I think they could give winning guilds a unique Castle Design for their guild-EK or something - significant, but cosmetic).


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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2 hours ago, Kombine said:

I"m not an ACE development partner and I think they are right. This grind is NOTHING.

Compared to a PvE grinder you are correct. Sadly this was not supposed to be a PvE grinder and as such has very little in the way of PvE content that are normally found in those game you are comparing. 

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15 hours ago, Zirone said:

-First of all, wtf? leveling takes nearly no time, normally when you get a blue purple or even yellow vessel you normally should have leveling scrolls to get the character up. it never took me more than a few hours to get a vessel to 30. That's nothing.

A legendary vessel may get maxed but did you actually fit out the legendary disciplines you planned to put in...  only the harvesting and minors can be bought for around 108k gold...  about a 10 hour grind and some by Mob drops but the real discs only drop from elites on a 20 min timer, are camped like SB disc droppers when the pop is active and you need to collect 5 white to combine to green etc on up to Legendary...   that's 25 for blue, 125 for purple and 625 for Gold...   So I want an Arcane Archer disc for my legendary vessel...   probably more than a month of grinding, trading, whinging and pestering my guildmates for thiers…   yea, Purple drops will help but I call hogwash on easy grind.  All while I am concurrently wanting my 2 other discs as well... whose got a purple Juggernaut or Plaguelord to sell or trade... right   100k+    Disciplines were supposed to be player crafted... not dropped...   I am sure this will get another look.

 

 

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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4 hours ago, McTan said:

@APE There is no doubt that a group that wins one campaign is more likely to find success in future campaigns. As it is in sports, a team with better players is more likely to win, by definition. But, that scenario is not Uncle Bob. Uncle Bob would be: you won the Super Bowl last year, so you start every game this year already winning 7-0. That is what the OP is suggesting (though I think they could give winning guilds a unique Castle Design for their guild-EK or something - significant, but cosmetic).

Depending on how you want to interpret or define "Uncle Bob," a campaign starting with one side having larger numbers, better organization, better skilled players, more quality items/resources/vessels to import, and whatever previous benefits isn't too different then starting the year with a 7-0 record.

X guild/faction winning a previous campaign doesn't mean they will win the next but it isn't hurting their chances.

I enjoy both open world MMOs and competitive lobby games. ACE seemed to be pulling ideas from both but so far I don't see the blend working entirely. Cherry picking features loses their value if the rest of the model is missing.

Leaderboards and MMR for example are a huge deal for competitive gaming. If I went up against pro gamers every match, a game ending doesn't change how crappy that feels. If I lose to relatively equal players, it still sucks, but I know my chances were more 50/50. This isn't exactly "Uncle Bob" but poses the same issue.

Players need to believe they have a chance to win or they give up or the match just putters out until time runs out. Seems like this is the case for the majority of Crowfall campaigns. While the next update, Dregs, and a larger population might drastically change things, I don't have the data to support that yet.

My hope is we see them expand pre-reqs to join a campaign along with power caps. Need to be X level, have X quality gear/vessel to enter, along with caps along the same lines. Like Blue Vessel/Gear is all one can enter/craft/earn while in the campaign. At least this would even out the stat differences and then it becomes who uses what they have better.

Still, I see an issue with top tier players and those with larger forces dominating without anything in place.

I don't agree with the OP wanting to reward Uncle Bob even more, but I do agree there needs to be Risk v Reward. It is very much missing across the board.

All of this is hard to balance and while open world games have suffered. Crowfall is a change but maybe not quite enough. It definitely will be a niche within a niche.

Edited by APE

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6 minutes ago, Frykka said:

the real discs only drop from elites on a 20 min timer, are camped like SB disc droppers when the pop is active and you need to collect 5 white to combine to green etc on up to Legendary...   that's 25 for blue, 125 for purple and 625 for Gold...   So I want an Arcane Archer disc for my legendary vessel...   probably more than a month of grinding, trading, whinging and pestering my guildmates for thiers… 

It looks like you are presuming that Discipline-dropping mobs will drop white Disciplines. That is unlikely. They will drop higher ranks.

Edited by Jah

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