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mivius

Brutal, but honest question...

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So I feel the need to preface this with a couple of things...

I am coming up on 5 years of watching, waiting, reading, testing...as are a good number of you.

If you are a "fanboi", or a blind faith follower, you should stop reading now, as this will be upsetting, and your commentary will fall upon as deaf ears as my words here will upon yours.

I am going to ask the question first, and list some (and please note, I am specifically being very concise thereafter, this is, not by far, a comprehensive list).

I am aware this is "pre -alpha", hiding behind such a tag will not diminish the relevancy.

Simply:  Why will people come play this game? More importantly? What will keep them here?

First, the game is not what we were "promised".  While I have read the post(s) trivializing the pve 'grind', I throw my hat in the ring that we were assured there would be NO pve grind.  Some > 0, no matter how you cut it, and the changes that brings vary in people's opinion on significance, but it has SOME effect, which is undeniable. The "grind" was to be resources, or pvp . Let's not forget to mention entering a campaign is barred if you're not lvl 20, so it is significant enough to have induced a hard stop/bar mechanic unless you pve level. 

There were supposed to be NO dropped gear, or coins, it was 100% supposed to in the hands of the players, again, we've been lied to numerous times. (I don't care about business decisions, your word is your word, ACE's has thus far been broken too many times to hold any value.)

Necromancy has turned out to be at least as OP as feared, perhaps more-so now that they do not poof when something ends, and do not decay.

Most of the mechanics are unimaginitive, I'd go so far as to say "lazy" when it comes to the CC/counter-CC 'mini-game', just rehashing of tired tropes.

"Uncle Bob" isn't  eliminated through dying worlds, as "Uncle Bob" is just the people who get VIP training from day1. 

The ONLY interesting/new mechanic is the "dying worlds", otherwise we are just playing a mash-up of rehashed ideas, and the touted 'skill' has been negated by following the same tired patterns we have all seen before.

Are dying worlds 'cool' enough to keep people's interest?  It's not longer just a pvp game, and sieges offer exactly what that's new, refreshing, and interesting enough not to get tired after a few cycles?  Not much.

The long and short of it is that I would not have scraped together what I could to support a Kickstarter for the game as presented today as I did 5 years ago. The things that I found most interesting no longer apply, or the easy way out has been taken, and I've gotten rehashed blah instead.

And while a good online/other PR campaign might raise curiosity enough for people to log in to check the game out, what is so different here to keep people?

I remember at one point they were more concerned with developing those awesome ideas, even if it meant more limited 'commercial success', but I feel they've sold out, and likely to their, our, and the game's peril.

Where is the game we were lured in and sold on?   Because what Crowfall is shaping up as is not that by a country mile...

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, mivius said:

Are dying worlds 'cool' enough to keep people's interest?  It's not longer just a pvp game, and sieges offer exactly what that's new, refreshing, and interesting enough not to get tired after a few cycles?  Not much.

Not unless they vastly improve performance. I honestly think they started adding PvE exclusively once ACE realized unity engine cannot handle the player load needed to have a 'throne war' type game. Disclaimer: I do not consider a pvp game with sub 30FPS a game. 

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11 hours ago, mivius said:

Simply:  Why will people come play this game? More importantly? What will keep them here?

That's a good question and I agree with it. I think the world, the environment and the pvp are/were the selling point of the game but pve seems to slowly come to the first plan. As @mystafyi wrote the reason behind it might be the technical issues of the game. But if now is not the time to solve them then when?
 

11 hours ago, mivius said:

Most of the mechanics are unimaginitive, I'd go so far as to say "lazy" when it comes to the CC/counter-CC 'mini-game', just rehashing of tired tropes.

I also perceive it that way. I'm a bit afraid that the pvp won't be as rewarding as it could be. Sieges and fights for forts are really fun as a concept and mechanic but the fight and the pvp itself could see much improvement. CC do not feel to be impactful and sometimes killing someone in a bit bigger fights like 10vs10 or more is quite hard with all these tanky specs and healers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that we can't kill a tank with a healer backing him up, the point is that bigger fights seems to not be very dynamic and as a range dps which I prefer to play the damage feels quite non-impactful in group combats. (Maybe it's because I'm relatively new player and don't have that much experience in combat but so will be 330k+ players that will be invited later)

11 hours ago, mivius said:

"Uncle Bob" isn't  eliminated through dying worlds, as "Uncle Bob" is just the people who get VIP training from day1. 

Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop but I think there's no longer any bonus to training from the VIP?

 

To clarify - I'm not complaining about the current state of the game, I rather am afraid how it will look like in the future and asking some questions about the mechanics that might be improved and what changes we may expect because I'm really looking forward to the success of CF and I can't wait to get into the game again :)

Edited by Aeriav

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On 12/10/2019 at 1:20 PM, mivius said:

what is so different here to keep people?

Couldn't tell you. I'm a fan of PVP MMOs, PVE MMOS, and eSport competitive type games and really liked the idea of trying to blend things together. Sounded like a long MMO Battleground/Arena match. In practice seems more like all the grindy PVE stuff people seem to trash on with some one off PVP events that eventually all ends and someone gets their name on the screen in lights.

As a few have stuck it out and continue to log in, clearly there is a market for it, but I'm doubting the majority that backed at some point will actually be playing 6 months after launch. Without much new blood appeal, if someone hasn't already backed or doesn't early on at launch, I'm not sure why someone is going to buy in a year after launch. Even if you completely ignore everything else on the horizon.

The next update might change my mind and flip it all around, but Crowfall seems like the same old design that happens to have matches that end. Beyond that, few to almost no mechanics/features really stand out as something I would try to persuade a friend to check out. Other MMO have better RvR, PVE, PVP systems, combat, character design, etc. Lobby competitive games have ranking, MMR, achievements/rewards, easy in/out design, and constant action.

On 12/10/2019 at 1:20 PM, mivius said:

Where is the game we were lured in and sold on?   Because what Crowfall is shaping up as is not that by a country mile...

If you go back, much of the hype was just that and marketing. Vague concepts and big picture vision stuff. While some actual concrete things have changed a lot, I believe they are keeping with the overall design goals. Things change and this is why crowdfunding has just as many cons as pros for everyone involved.

I don't regret backing or all the hours I've "wasted" so far, but I doubt I'll enjoy the finished product.

Also backed Camelot Unchained which I really hope ends up meeting 50% of the ideas they have planned. A lot more new/creative stuff along with the engine to support the experience I'm looking for. Ashes of Creation is another that might have a chance if they ever make the game and stop selling cosmetics. Few other smaller games that might have a future, but I don't plan on getting my monies worth. Amazon's LOTR game might be the next big MMO hit, who knows.

What frustrates me is ACE has a lot of good ideas, but for whatever reason, the actual product doesn't live up to my expectations and I fear many will share my view.

A small crowd that still logs in and play tests, but I've seen plenty that share yours and my views as well. They said a small niche population was their goal, but it might end up being a bit too small.

Next update will likely paint the future depending on how many not only check it out but stick around. The idea that 10s of thousands will completely ignore everything until launch day doesn't seem right to me. If open beta isn't breaking the log in servers, ACE might have a big problem. That is if they have more then 5 servers that can handle a handful of people...

While I wouldn't do it, it is unfortunate they don't offer refunds like some other crowdfunded projects. Especially when what was promised, alluded to, hyped up isn't what we end up with.

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You now entered stage 3:

Stage 1: Core players will push developers to implement features which privileges day one players -> new players are heavily discriminated

Stage 2: Core players are happy -> new players will stop playing because they can't compete due to passive skill system and grinding requirements

Stage 3: Core players will find reasons not playing the game anymore

Stage 4: Game dead

 

Just for the record this game isn't even released yet and you already reached stage 3... wow

 

Edited by kim-lee

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1 hour ago, kim-lee said:

Just for the record this game isn't even released yet and you already reached stage 3

Just for the record, the current NA campaign is the busiest campaign we've seen in months. All 3 factions are actively engaged & we're seeing siege fights with over 100 participants, simultaneous assaults on multiple keeps, and fort fights all through peak times. This may go down as one of the best NA campaigns of 5.100.

All this activity with a wipe looming? Game is not dead.

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I'll preface my response with the statement that I am not a fanboi, I am a realist about the development process.  That said:

There is just too much outstanding work to be done to even judge what the final game will really look like IMO and ACE has not provided enough information to bridge the gap between current and launch designs, and trying to gauge CF's success based on half-baked mechanics and placeholder functionality doesn't make much sense.  Things HAVE changed along the way, seemingly for better and for worse, and that should probably be taken as an indicator that the game should not be judged until it actually resembles the end product.

My biggest concern at this point is the volume of people getting ahead of the game with such premature speculation and scaring off potential players and further discouraging existing players who have been waiting to play for years; the well is being poisoned by impatience (not trying to be accusatory, they have taken forever and everyone's impatience is 100% justified, it's just a fact).  ACE could (and very much should) get ahead of this speculation by joining these conversations to provide transparency on what is and is not within the intent of their design, in my opinion that community management aspect is the cost of developing on backer dollars, but I think we should also give them the chance to deliver something that actually resembles the product before we start this particular conversation.

I believe they have announced that VIP training will not differ from non-VIP (though I still don't know why they did that or why people are equating that to pay-to-win/uncle Bob; there is no realm where you can go it alone successfully in this game and training 2 trees vs 1 doesn't change that at all).  If Uncle Bob will exist in this game as it is said to be designed, it will probably be in the form of an over-stuffed guild that can't be assailed, and there are several threads of discussion on how to mitigate that which will hopefully be regarded.

5 hours ago, kim-lee said:

Just for the record this game isn't even released yet and you already reached stage 3... wow

There is no game yet.  

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3 hours ago, starrshipcs said:

My biggest concern at this point is the volume of people getting ahead of the game with such premature speculation and scaring off potential players and further discouraging existing players who have been waiting to play for years; the well is being poisoned by impatience (not trying to be accusatory, they have taken forever and everyone's impatience is 100% justified, it's just a fact).  

I have seen this said about most every game, in every instance it was a fallacy. If a game is being badmouthed for any number of reasons, its a direct result of the dev's. If they had a good game there would not a 'poisoned well'. Blaming players for shortcomings of any game is used as an excuse for poor quality.

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16 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I have seen this said about most every game, in every instance it was a fallacy. If a game is being badmouthed for any number of reasons, its a direct result of the dev's. If they had a good game there would not a 'poisoned well'. Blaming players for shortcomings of any game is used as an excuse for poor quality.

As someone who is reasonably well informed about the game, I certainly do see a lot of ill-informed badmouthing.

There is plenty of fair criticism about Crowfall. But not all of it is fair or truthful.


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19 minutes ago, Jah said:

There is plenty of fair criticism about Crowfall. But not all of it is fair or truthful.

Sadly, nothing in life is fair and truth can depend upon perception or point of view. I agree with you that there are some ill-informed postings, but no more comparatively then other games. 

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4 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I have seen this said about most every game, in every instance it was a fallacy. If a game is being badmouthed for any number of reasons, its a direct result of the dev's. If they had a good game there would not a 'poisoned well'. Blaming players for shortcomings of any game is used as an excuse for poor quality.

I can't speak for whatever arguments for other games you are referring to but I can say unequivocally that this argument is not built on fallacy; fallacy is conclusion drawn using faulty logic and there is none of that here (please do correct me if I am wrong).  Unless there is more information out there beyond the latest monthly Q&A (in which case please do share), there is absolutely no way anyone here has near enough knowledge about what this game will ultimately look and play like on the macro level to start having the doomsday conversation of "why even play this game cuz it's so broke"; there is enough info to have that conversation about some subsystems in the game, but certainly not the game on the whole. 

With regard to fallacies, it is a non-sequitur to say that "this game won't be playable" based on assumptions made on incomplete information and observations made in a minimally playable test environment because the current information is not representative of the final product; that is pretty much tantamount to saying "If they don't have a complete game design from day 1 of development then I think its all going to be garbage because the incomplete design is garbage".  Saying "If they had a good game there would not a 'poisoned well'" could still become a true statement at some point, I really hope not, but at this point it is really you just poisoning the well exactly as I described; there is no game yet, only a minimally playable test environment and some relatively generic information about upcoming functionality and final design.

I'm really not trying to be combative here (is resting gripe-fingers a thing, cuz I may have it), but gripes like this are worse than counter-productive because they could turn people off without reason and we should all want this to succeed. 

3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Sadly, nothing in life is fair and truth can depend upon perception or point of view. I agree with you that there are some ill-informed postings, but no more comparatively then other games. 

It really doesn't matter what people said on other games' forums, this game should be judged on its merits (all of its merits, and its faults) and should not arbitrarily bagged on just because people bag on other games too.  Truth = fact and facts do not, in any way, depend upon perception, but my opinion is that ACE is largely responsible for the ill-informed postings because they are not engaging in conversations like this to fill in the gaps in information, and so we are left in a vacuum to make assumptions.  I don't fault people for being concerned about the final product, I most certainly am as well, but as I said we should all want CF to succeed and premature counter-productive conversations about "how things will surely suck because they suck now" will not help anything or anyone.

Edited by starrshipcs

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On 12/10/2019 at 3:20 PM, mivius said:

So I feel the need to preface this with a couple of things...

I am coming up on 5 years of watching, waiting, reading, testing...as are a good number of you.

If you are a "fanboi", or a blind faith follower, you should stop reading now, as this will be upsetting, and your commentary will fall upon as deaf ears as my words here will upon yours.

I am going to ask the question first, and list some (and please note, I am specifically being very concise thereafter, this is, not by far, a comprehensive list).

I am aware this is "pre -alpha", hiding behind such a tag will not diminish the relevancy.

Simply:  Why will people come play this game? More importantly? What will keep them here?

First, the game is not what we were "promised".  While I have read the post(s) trivializing the pve 'grind', I throw my hat in the ring that we were assured there would be NO pve grind.  Some > 0, no matter how you cut it, and the changes that brings vary in people's opinion on significance, but it has SOME effect, which is undeniable. The "grind" was to be resources, or pvp . Let's not forget to mention entering a campaign is barred if you're not lvl 20, so it is significant enough to have induced a hard stop/bar mechanic unless you pve level. 

There were supposed to be NO dropped gear, or coins, it was 100% supposed to in the hands of the players, again, we've been lied to numerous times. (I don't care about business decisions, your word is your word, ACE's has thus far been broken too many times to hold any value.)

Necromancy has turned out to be at least as OP as feared, perhaps more-so now that they do not poof when something ends, and do not decay.

Most of the mechanics are unimaginitive, I'd go so far as to say "lazy" when it comes to the CC/counter-CC 'mini-game', just rehashing of tired tropes.

"Uncle Bob" isn't  eliminated through dying worlds, as "Uncle Bob" is just the people who get VIP training from day1. 

The ONLY interesting/new mechanic is the "dying worlds", otherwise we are just playing a mash-up of rehashed ideas, and the touted 'skill' has been negated by following the same tired patterns we have all seen before.

Are dying worlds 'cool' enough to keep people's interest?  It's not longer just a pvp game, and sieges offer exactly what that's new, refreshing, and interesting enough not to get tired after a few cycles?  Not much.

The long and short of it is that I would not have scraped together what I could to support a Kickstarter for the game as presented today as I did 5 years ago. The things that I found most interesting no longer apply, or the easy way out has been taken, and I've gotten rehashed blah instead.

And while a good online/other PR campaign might raise curiosity enough for people to log in to check the game out, what is so different here to keep people?

I remember at one point they were more concerned with developing those awesome ideas, even if it meant more limited 'commercial success', but I feel they've sold out, and likely to their, our, and the game's peril.

Where is the game we were lured in and sold on?   Because what Crowfall is shaping up as is not that by a country mile...

 

 

 

What exactly are you seeking?  The decisions they changed after KS aren’t going to revert: leveling is here, dropped gear and gold aren’t going away either.  Would you prefer they start over?  How much time and money do you think they have?  Even the elder fanbois of Crowfall don’t like the leveling and most of us have railed against but it’s in and it’s staying in for the foreseeable future. 

The biggest aspect of uncle bob is one they can’t control.  You can do free start servers where you bring no gear or resources from previous campaigns and Uncle Bob is still going to show up.  Guilds that have strong leadership, divisions of labor, are willing to adapt to changing metas and are willing to play the logistics aspects at a min/max will eventually ally together (people want to win and want to play with likeminded players).  Those are the biggest factors to Uncle Bob and ACE can’t do poorly made socks about them.  People are used to CoD where Individual skill is king and Crowfall isn’t that game.  You need to be good at a dozen things to win in CF and PvP skill isn’t the most important thing (that really pisses people off too).  The idea of a “better” player losing because he didn’t have as much training or poorer vessels/gear just pisses some people off.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I just bought the game two weeks ago after a friend showed me it. I think it’s amazing. I don’t know what you guys were all promised at Kickstarter but as a new player following what changes are coming with 5.110, I’m hyped. I love the guild/camaraderie aspect of people having to help each other out to effectively maximize your character. I like the mix of pve and pvp. The grind doesn’t feel nearly as wasteful as other mmos. I like that there isn’t quests and everything pretty much revolves around helping your guild or strengthening your character. The character building is complex and deep enough that I feel as if my contributions matter. The whole procedurally generated worlds every campaign with various win conditions is awesome. Keeps things fresh every few weeks/months. Love the idea of building your own kingdom and then going out and searching for materials/caravans with the risk of coming across other factions. I think the game caters to people who just wanna craft/harvest and help out the guild and people who love conquest/pvp. Every game is going to have grind, especially for mmos. And right now the balance is fantastic in my opinion. I agree, they need to optimize and polish up things, but they’re already going to do that. Some people who have been invested in the game since the beginning might be upset, but as a new player, I can’t get enough of the game and I’ve encouraged multiple friends to get it as well because it’s an awesome cooperative mmo to play with friends. 

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