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Soulstitch

This game needs more "smart" heals

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While I support the skill heals, I also believe this game needs more smart heals where a healer can hit a skill on cool down and it heals the lowest party > guild > faction member in range. Targeted heals are great tests of skill, but landing it through traffic on the one that needs it, is very difficult. if not impossible. 

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8 hours ago, Soulstitch said:

While I support the skill heals, I also believe this game needs more smart heals where a healer can hit a skill on cool down and it heals the lowest party > guild > faction member in range. Targeted heals are great tests of skill, but landing it through traffic on the one that needs it, is very difficult. if not impossible. 

When landing damage is easier than landing heals it may be appropriate to have this conversation.

Until then, it is not.

Templar and cleric ground circles do in fact prioritize lower Hp targets, and can be kept up on cooldown. In addition, clerics have access to untargeted group healing and Druids have access to ground cast "pinpoint heals" on lmb capable of healing any target you want with a constant uptick regardless of any intervening targets by clicking their feet.

It is significantly easier to heal the exact ally you wish to heal than it is to damage the exact enemy you wish to damage.


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Crowfall's combat is already pretty low mechanically challenging, having the game do more of the work would decrease it further. Odd that an "action" game with a reticle can be less challenging then a tab game.

 

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What if a healer could, prior to battle, queue up a list of units in their squad.  Then heal those units by clicking on their names.  But, if those units die, the connection is broken and the name goes away.  But if the player who died brings a new unit back to the battle, the healer could add this new unit to their list of names.

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37 minutes ago, AngelikMayhem said:

What if a healer could, prior to battle, queue up a list of units in their squad.  Then heal those units by clicking on their names.  But, if those units die, the connection is broken and the name goes away.  But if the player who died brings a new unit back to the battle, the healer could add this new unit to their list of names.

Because aiming at stuff is part of the combat model and you don't get a free pass just because you need to aim at your friends.


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Everyone carries around a hitbox the size of a barn.  It's impossible to really tell how heals are going to interact until we have a game engine thats similar to whats going to be released.  I personally have advocated for more heal combos, making healers choose between different routes in a combo increases risk and reward.  Healers need to be more impactful than they are now.  I think "smart" heals and aoe heals are boring.  I want more ways for healers to differentiate themselves with skill of play.  As it is right now, you just need to "have a healer", its impossible to do poorly on one.

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3 hours ago, Ble said:

Everyone carries around a hitbox the size of a barn.  It's impossible to really tell how heals are going to interact until we have a game engine thats similar to whats going to be released.

They tried to fix this in general with a floating target reticle that would move towards your actual target on mouseover.
It was a neat idea, but needed more time to be properly implemented. Tighter hitboxes would have helped.


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14 hours ago, Ble said:

I personally have advocated for more heal combos, making healers choose between different routes in a combo increases risk and reward. 

 

14 hours ago, Ble said:

I want more ways for healers to differentiate themselves with skill of play.  As it is right now, you just need to "have a healer", its impossible to do poorly on one.

100% agree with these things. I don't actually know why healers don't have heal combos similar to CC and damage combos. One dimensional heals are boring and will continue to be boring whatever form they take. 

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As someone who has played a Healer of one type or another in every MMO I've played - I have to agree with Ble and Nestling.

"Smart Heals" and similar spells make for a very boring game. Such tools take the thought out of healing.
At that point, you can just enable Auto-follow and have a drinking bird spam the "heal me" button.

At this point I've been in the game 2 days, and I've not seen my wife or I get below half health.
I'm far from battle hardened in Crowfall, but I look forward to some of the great PVP action I saw in Shadowbane!

I'd love to see some nifty combos and interactions in healing - maybe even have healing chains that include non-healing spells as part of the chain.
Having a few buffs in the mix might be fun - or a few that can only be done in the heat of combat.

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This game needs the complete opposite for its combat. Its already incredibly easy. Been saying it for years, Football field sized AOEs mixed with huge Hitboxes makes for very boring combat. Everything is a huge AOE or a Cone Attack of some sort. Brain dead heals would just add to the Blandness 


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20 minutes ago, wor said:

This game needs the complete opposite for its combat. Its already incredibly easy. Been saying it for years, Football field sized AOEs mixed with huge Hitboxes makes for very boring combat. Everything is a huge AOE or a Cone Attack of some sort. Brain dead heals would just add to the Blandness 

BUT OMG IT HAS A RETICLE! It's like I'm playing a FPS! :rolleyes:

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:24 PM, Ble said:

Everyone carries around a hitbox the size of a barn.  It's impossible to really tell how heals are going to interact until we have a game engine thats similar to whats going to be released.  I personally have advocated for more heal combos, making healers choose between different routes in a combo increases risk and reward.  Healers need to be more impactful than they are now.  I think "smart" heals and aoe heals are boring.  I want more ways for healers to differentiate themselves with skill of play.  As it is right now, you just need to "have a healer", its impossible to do poorly on one.

The reason we don't have combos is that heals are generally meant as a sort of "intercept" maneuver. Skill combos are essentially a neat way to disguise long cast timers, but heals with long cast timers are often kinda useless unless your TTK is really long. Crowfall's TTK is often crazy short, far too short for a combo heal ability to be relevant.

Damage is always useful, and there's not much of a drawback of overswinging damage abilities, largely because you're generally using damage abilities to focus on a single target, even if you're laying down AOE the goal is to down a single target. When you're healing the goal is generally to keep multiple targets alive, all of whom may be taking damage. This means healing is often more reaction than action, and the lengthy "planning" we see in combos seems that it wouldn't adequately serve this paradigm.

In stead of combos I'd like to see simply less focus on heals and more focus on protective abilities. I'm tired of playing every single game in which "support" is largely back loaded and reactionary. I'd like to see more games in which support roles are more about shielding and CC and enabling people to better use their own self heals, blocking, dodging, etc. combined with HoTs so that simply getting healed isn't sufficient to keep people up. Make support more of a conversation between party members than one guy doing whatever and the other guy making sure a green bar stays full.


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A few more days into the game and really looking at the Talent tree for the Cleric leaves me feeling that the class is missing something.
The Buffs I've seen only last 3 or 5 seconds. I've picked up a bard ability to grant extra life or up the damage output.
I've a nifty root / DoT, and a collection of HoTs. There is a Shiny Shield ability that I skipped over that does some damage.

At the moment, my Wife is playing a duelist and her health bar never drops below half (we just hit level 13 the other night - so no PvP exposure yet).

Thus far my play style as a healer is more of a ranged hammer thrower with an occasional HoT thrown in just to keep the green bar from getting too low.

In DAoC, SB, WoW and CoH I always had much more to do as a healer than just spam a HoT.

There was buff management, removing debuffs, healing, crowed control and bringing in reinforcements during the fight.
Maybe I'm playing the wrong class, but I'm feeling more like a Ranger that is dabbling in heals more than a Cleric.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I get into the Campaigns, but at the moment I'd love to loose a HoT in place of some flat heals.
Maybe healing by ret will be a huge pain, but some flat "heal everyone by x HP" with a longer cast time could work out.
I'd be happy with a Hot -> shield blind -> root -> flat heal with a def bonus sort of a combo.

Something that gives me more to do then watch green bars and throw hammers to help season the meat.
In the end, I really want to play a Healer - not a Healzbot.

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15 hours ago, Farvann said:

In DAoC, SB, WoW and CoH I always had much more to do as a healer than just spam a HoT.

There was buff management, removing debuffs, healing, crowed control and bringing in reinforcements during the fight.
Maybe I'm playing the wrong class, but I'm feeling more like a Ranger that is dabbling in heals more than a Cleric.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I get into the Campaigns, but at the moment I'd love to loose a HoT in place of some flat heals.
Maybe healing by ret will be a huge pain, but some flat "heal everyone by x HP" with a longer cast time could work out.
I'd be happy with a Hot -> shield blind -> root -> flat heal with a def bonus sort of a combo.

Something that gives me more to do then watch green bars and throw hammers to help season the meat.
In the end, I really want to play a Healer - not a Healzbot.

Initially the plan was no "fire hose" healers. The typical PVE kind where the healer sits back and just spams heals and stares at friendly health bars.

Unfortunately they seem to have missed all the other tools that healers from games like you mentioned have beyond just heal spam. Along with a limited tool bar, limited to no combos, reliance on AOE & Fire n Forget healing, no hard targeting, and zerg combat,  healers in this game are pretty limited. Yet aren't too different then fire hose healing, it just functions differently and less skill is required IMO.

Druid has a somewhat more interesting kit being able to use 2 bars, but still isn't quite as interesting as other games I've played.

Edited by APE

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21 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The reason we don't have combos is that heals are generally meant as a sort of "intercept" maneuver. Skill combos are essentially a neat way to disguise long cast timers, but heals with long cast timers are often kinda useless unless your TTK is really long. Crowfall's TTK is often crazy short, far too short for a combo heal ability to be relevant.

Damage is always useful, and there's not much of a drawback of overswinging damage abilities, largely because you're generally using damage abilities to focus on a single target, even if you're laying down AOE the goal is to down a single target. When you're healing the goal is generally to keep multiple targets alive, all of whom may be taking damage. This means healing is often more reaction than action, and the lengthy "planning" we see in combos seems that it wouldn't adequately serve this paradigm.

In stead of combos I'd like to see simply less focus on heals and more focus on protective abilities. I'm tired of playing every single game in which "support" is largely back loaded and reactionary. I'd like to see more games in which support roles are more about shielding and CC and enabling people to better use their own self heals, blocking, dodging, etc. combined with HoTs so that simply getting healed isn't sufficient to keep people up. Make support more of a conversation between party members than one guy doing whatever and the other guy making sure a green bar stays full.

Completely agree with your last comment. There is so much more possible with "support" then just 8 different forms of healing filling the bar.

However, I could see such things being used as "combos" with healing and the speed of which could be less of an issue if animations and activation are smooth.

Seems like such a waste that most classes have few combos. Beyond resources creating them, I don't see why every single power couldn't have one or more combos. Instead of every power having multiple elements all activated at once, it could actually require some choice/thought/strategy instead of hit 1 button and we get dmg + cc + debuff or whatever. The system exists and work this way for some powers, hopefully they expand on it in the future. Healers especially need some more creative features.

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As somebody who only heals I adamantly disagree with the OP.  We don’t need more smart heals, the OP wants them for ease of play. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

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Posted (edited)
On 1/5/2020 at 9:24 PM, Ble said:

Everyone carries around a hitbox the size of a barn.  It's impossible to really tell how heals are going to interact until we have a game engine thats similar to whats going to be released.  I personally have advocated for more heal combos, making healers choose between different routes in a combo increases risk and reward.  Healers need to be more impactful than they are now.  I think "smart" heals and aoe heals are boring.  I want more ways for healers to differentiate themselves with skill of play.  As it is right now, you just need to "have a healer", its impossible to do poorly on one.

Other games have tried heal combos and it's terrible.  Most notably Bless. The problem is that healing just does not work like damage does. We need all our skills at our disposal with one button press. It's a much more dynamic playstyle so you don't necessarily hit the same buttons in the same order all the time when healing, especially with PvP. As the situation changes, you adapt and use what skills you need at that moment. So having to go through a 2 or 3 skill chain to get to what I need may mean someone dies in the process at worst, or at best I just sit there and waste mana and time using skills I don't need at all to get to the one that I do. Terrible idea.

I really cannot emphasize enough how terrible of an idea this is and it needs to never be done. Not with healing skills - damage sure give me some damaging combos and maybe add some passive debuff effects or heal on damage combo, that's ok. Just not regular heals.

But on topic,  I hate smart heals. It takes all the skill and thought out of healing. It's one of the reasons why ESO healing isn't super fun. I don't want it to be hard, but I do want to be choosing who I heal and who I don't. That can be done in various ways - making AoEs with a small radius is one (and I only just logged into the game for the first time last night but I did see some small AoEs). I'm not sure how clumped people get in this game (can someone answer that for me?) but in past games I've played - and partially due to collision detection - you couldn't get more than 3-5 players in those which was good. I shouldn't be able to hit a ton of people with an easily placed AoE unless it's a skill with a CD (like the Cleric ULT, that's fine cause I can't spam that).

I also think for targeted heals that OP is concerned about, just do what TERA did and allow the "targeted" heals to hit 2-3 people. It worked well there for the primary "single target" heal, so if people were clumped you were still guaranteed to get the one you needed and if you hit 1 or 2 next to them that was ok. How it worked was upon the first button press you would choose your heal targets via mousing over them with the reticle, and it would highlight the players, then a second press casted the skill. This personally I thought was great skill design that could be explored here if that's an issue - definitely before considering any smart healing. They also had a targeted AoE that worked similar, where you'd target one person and it would hit a few other people within about a 5m radius, so melee range. That's another way to do targeted heals that doesn't allow for mindless button smashing.

Edited by Leiloni

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On 1/14/2020 at 3:20 AM, PopeUrban said:

The reason we don't have combos is that heals are generally meant as a sort of "intercept" maneuver. Skill combos are essentially a neat way to disguise long cast timers, but heals with long cast timers are often kinda useless unless your TTK is really long. Crowfall's TTK is often crazy short, far too short for a combo heal ability to be relevant.

Damage is always useful, and there's not much of a drawback of overswinging damage abilities, largely because you're generally using damage abilities to focus on a single target, even if you're laying down AOE the goal is to down a single target. When you're healing the goal is generally to keep multiple targets alive, all of whom may be taking damage. This means healing is often more reaction than action, and the lengthy "planning" we see in combos seems that it wouldn't adequately serve this paradigm.

Completely agree with this.

 

On 1/14/2020 at 3:20 AM, PopeUrban said:

In stead of combos I'd like to see simply less focus on heals and more focus on protective abilities. I'm tired of playing every single game in which "support" is largely back loaded and reactionary. I'd like to see more games in which support roles are more about shielding and CC and enabling people to better use their own self heals, blocking, dodging, etc. combined with HoTs so that simply getting healed isn't sufficient to keep people up. Make support more of a conversation between party members than one guy doing whatever and the other guy making sure a green bar stays full.

I think there's a few issues with this. First I think reactive healing is fun and a lot of people do - and usually involves a decent amount of skill in choosing targets, skills, and timing. But secondly, adding too many shields and CC just makes it easier. I think some of that is good to be used situationally and the variety makes things more fun. But with too many shields (or CC) you can just mindlessly prevent too much damage and that's not fun for anyone.

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