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Dev Diary: The Power Bar

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Player feedback was universally in agreement that the system was non-intuitive

of the people who actually stick around to play longer than a week or two you dont hear this compliant. i personally am and was a fan of manually switching in and out of combat. i think this change will create alot more issues with certain classes being viable and will only make balancing that much harder.

whats it going to play out like when i use a knotwood tree to hide myself while charging up an attack? am i going to have to look away from the battle to initiate the charge? what about kiting melee around resource nodes?

oh, and when will we be able to change the Tab key binding?

 

Edited by oneply

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19 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Agreed. 

Seems like they could expand those 3 "consumable" slots into 8 - 10x "out of combat slots" that get greyed out while in combat. At least then we would have the same amount of bar slots as we had before we just wouldn't have to manually tray swap to use them. 

The consumable slots (Alt 1 - Alt 3) do not accept powers at all, only Potions, Bandages, Food, Campfires. (Our slots are not combo slots that accept both powers/consumables, you get one or the other!)

 

8 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Same logic:

Will Brigand traps triggering put me in combat?

Currently traps expiring, or traps I don't have the ability to remove can put me in combat without my consent.

If an assassin can dot someone and remain stealthed I assume a brigand can trigger traps and remain stealthed, right?

Good question, the situation you provide isn't an apples to apples comparison though.

In order for the Assassin to be in a state of "DoT ticking + still in stealth";
a) they would first have to break stealth to apply the DoT and then wait the combat timer out (at which point the DoT may have already worn off) ,
b) or use a Vanish to get back into stealth while they have DoTs on someone,
c) or the case where the power auto removes stealth, applies an effect or damage, then puts them back in stealth. (Spirit Dart/Gopher Broke)

Meanwhile over on the Brigand, they placed traps while in stealth that subsequently exploded when triggered, and the explosion damage activated the remove player from stealth because "they did damage and are stealthed." The pattern doesn't match any of the 3 Assassin/Duelist versions I listed above.
If we wanted to make them all the same, we probably would have followed model C) and make the Brigand appear every time they place a trap and then put them back into stealth.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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3 hours ago, thomasblair said:

The consumable slots (Alt 1 - Alt 3) do not accept powers at all, only Potions, Bandages, Food, Campfires. (Our slots are not combo slots that accept both powers/consumables, you get one or the other!)

 

Good question, the situation you provide isn't an apples to apples comparison though.

In order for the Assassin to be in a state of "DoT ticking + still in stealth";
a) they would first have to break stealth to apply the DoT and then wait the combat timer out (at which point the DoT may have already worn off) ,
b) or use a Vanish to get back into stealth while they have DoTs on someone,
c) or the case where the power auto removes stealth, applies an effect or damage, then puts them back in stealth. (Spirit Dart/Gopher Broke)

Meanwhile over on the Brigand, they placed traps while in stealth that subsequently exploded when triggered, and the explosion damage activated the remove player from stealth because "they did damage and are stealthed." The pattern doesn't match any of the 3 Assassin/Duelist versions I listed above.
If we wanted to make them all the same, we probably would have followed model C) and make the Brigand appear every time they place a trap and then put them back into stealth.

The thing is, this assumes I intended the trap to trigger at the moment it triggers.

Assassins and duelists can't "accidentally" become unstealthed. It is a deliberate and direct attack action, or requires the opponent to use a specific targeted ability.

Trap unstealthing requires the opponent to walk.

The way Brigand traps work, I place them, whicle stealthed, everyone can see them. I have a mental picture of how I want this to play out, but I have no control over the result. My agency is now over. If my target does not hit those traps they are now brightly lit 'unstealth and slow that guy down" switches waiting to be used by my opponent without my consent, or ticking timebombs waiting to put me tin to combat when a random wolf strolls over them, or they simply time out.

Brigands don't control when their traps trigger. Their enemies do. This makes brigands uniquely negatively effected by this change.

I would actually prefer the version where the brigand appears every time they place a trap as any time anyone could see me place a trap from stealth already invalidates my stealth due to the trap being a big glowy thing appearing out of nowhere.

 

Can we just do that? Make brigands visible while setting traps so they don't destealth me when they trigger?

 

No offense but they were already borderline unusable as traps due to pinpointing the stealther when deployed and revealing the stealther when triggered, and this change makes them even more of a liability. Left over traps don't just destealth at random, but now they're going to slow my move speed and prevent me from harvesting too.

Like I'm still having trouble seeing what your vision of traps actually is. Do you actually want brigands to use traps as traps? Like to set fields of traps to surprise opponents and harass people? Its already practically impossible to surprise people with them and now you're removing the ability to use them to harass as well by cutting the brigand's ability to kite with survival tray.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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3 hours ago, Extintor said:

In my mind I see it as there is no in combat out of combat thing like other mmo's and the basic thing to point at was being able to swap between surviv and combat stance. Aka Stance Dancing which I personally enjoy the most myself reminds me of when I first started to lvl my warrior in wow with the def stance + berserk stance + (the attack stance) I am also curious at how the durability on armor will now be affected if you are "always in combat stance" as the survival tray is to be removed. The game will now auto decide when you are "in an out of combat" because personally I dislike that system where irl you decide when the combat (fight) is over and give's you this decision in game of switching trays to accomplish a "goal" that the other tray doesn't give. For instance when you swap to surv tray mid melee brawl to dodge you are taking a risk of being dazed and knocked on the ground. When in combat stance you forfeit your dodge for more survivability aka block/parry. I will personally miss the Stance Dance mechanic but I am curious at what this new ui layout will bring to the table.

 

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

In order for the Assassin to be in a state of "DoT ticking + still in stealth";
a) they would first have to break stealth to apply the DoT and then wait the combat timer out (at which point the DoT may have already worn off) ,
b) or use a Vanish to get back into stealth while they have DoTs on someone,
c) or the case where the power auto removes stealth, applies an effect or damage, then puts them back in stealth. (Spirit Dart/Gopher Broke)

Or use Stink Bomb... at least as it is today.

Edited by VaMei

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6 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I do believe the saying is "better the devil you know". Meaning we have all experienced this before in every game that uses this model, however the benefits of the model outweigh the potential of this known potential problem. We definitely want to hear if it happens to you when this goes to Test, and if it does, you will either need to use a Runegate or Recall.

This game has durability loss though. Getting bugged and losing a chunk of your durability is much more punishing that other mmos. Also can you mount in combat?

Edited by Marth

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5 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The way Brigand traps work, I place them, whicle stealthed, everyone can see them. I have a mental picture of how I want this to play out, but I have no control over the result. My agency is now over. If my target does not hit those traps they are now brightly lit 'unstealth and slow that guy down" switches waiting to be used by my opponent without my consent, or ticking timebombs waiting to put me tin to combat when a random wolf strolls over them, or they simply time out.

Brigands don't control when their traps trigger. Their enemies do. This makes brigands uniquely negatively effected by this change.

I would actually prefer the version where the brigand appears every time they place a trap as any time anyone could see me place a trap from stealth already invalidates my stealth due to the trap being a big glowy thing appearing out of nowhere.

 

Can we just do that? Make brigands visible while setting traps so they don't destealth me when they trigger?

 

No offense but they were already borderline unusable as traps due to pinpointing the stealther when deployed and revealing the stealther when triggered, and this change makes them even more of a liability. Left over traps don't just destealth at random, but now they're going to slow my move speed and prevent me from harvesting too.

Like I'm still having trouble seeing what your vision of traps actually is. Do you actually want brigands to use traps as traps? Like to set fields of traps to surprise opponents and harass people? Its already practically impossible to surprise people with them and now you're removing the ability to use them to harass as well by cutting the brigand's ability to kite with survival tray.

So not entirely sure the last time you played your brigand pope but the traps De-Spawning do not take you out of stealth anymore. Also I Disagree I most definitely do not want my brigand to pop out of stealth every time I lay a trap, While they may be obvious my name popping up over and over again is a bit more obvious.... Don't get me wrong the way traps currently are is certainly a meh thing. However this tray change doesn't really change to much in regards to the way they work with stealth. Currently if I place traps and they are not set off they just de-spawn without any repercussions to myself. THEY DO NOT PULL ME OUT OF STEALTH.  If an enemy steps on a trap im switched into combat but can Re-stealth, However as soon as the DoT ticks on a target I will get popped out of stealth. Traps can currently be stacked up to 11 before hitting the despawn timer so it is most definitely possible to use them effectively in a certain situations. The way I see it is if your using bombs your already committing to that fight, be it sneaking up on a harvesting or capitalizing on a choke point. There aren't many situations where bombing as harassing is really effective. It wasn't even until recently that you could use the bombs on the ranged bar and ideally they don't really shine there. Can only speculate on the new system without testing but the only real change is gonna be the amount of time it takes to stealth and as a wood elf I don't see that being an issue.

Edited by Tyrannicall

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1 hour ago, Tyrannicall said:

So not entirely sure the last time you played your brigand pope but the traps De-Spawning do not take you out of stealth anymore. Also I Disagree I most definitely do not want my brigand to pop out of stealth every time I lay a trap, While they may be obvious my name popping up over and over again is a bit more obvious.... Don't get me wrong the way traps currently are is certainly a meh thing. However this tray change doesn't really change to much in regards to the way they work with stealth. Currently if I place traps and they are not set off they just de-spawn without any repercussions to myself. THEY DO NOT PULL ME OUT OF STEALTH.  If an enemy steps on a trap im switched into combat but can Re-stealth, However as soon as the DoT ticks on a target I will get popped out of stealth. Traps can currently be stacked up to 11 before hitting the despawn timer so it is most definitely possible to use them effectively in a certain situations. The way I see it is if your using bombs your already committing to that fight, be it sneaking up on a harvesting or capitalizing on a choke point. There aren't many situations where bombing as harassing is really effective. It wasn't even until recently that you could use the bombs on the ranged bar and ideally they don't really shine there. Can only speculate on the new system without testing but the only real change is gonna be the amount of time it takes to stealth and as a wood elf I don't see that being an issue.

If it works like the assassin dart it doesn't actually display your shield IIRC. Haven't tested that in a while though so I could be mistaken.

They do actually destealth you when they time out if there's something in the blast radius unless that was changed recently. It this is not the current case, then great job ACE!

Under this change you can not just restealth. You need to wait out the in combat timer to re stealth, and you're stuck moving at combat speed for the entire time. That's my entire point. Its a nerf to a mechanism that is already effectively nerfed until we have some new tech to stealth static objects like Blair mentioned last time we talked about it.

The situations in which stacks of traps are effective, ever since they got the new models are limited to around corners or if I can physically pull/knock people in to them. Also occasionally at the tops of ladders if you can hit the sweet spot where they don't sink through the floor.

The "certain situations" brig traps are useful as traps in are laughably narrow and that's my entire point. Its interesting you call them bombs rather than traps because that better describes their function. They're not traps. They don't work as traps. They can't be used to trick or trap anyone. Druids are better at setting up and executing traps than brigands are and druids have to manually detonate their traps! If that's not an indictment of how poor these proximity traps are at their core function I don't know what is.

Thats the core problem with traps that this is making even worse. Their effectiveness is entirely determined by the enemy, not the brigand, and that counterplay requires no special build or skill to execute. See trap, walk around trap, or pop trap with ult. Done. Now my enemy has even more control over me because of my defining class feature. Now they can not only walk around the trap, they can use it against me as a de facto snare at a later point in the fight of their choosing. This change makes my own combat skills more dangerous to me. Unless I'm missing something that can't be said of any other template. Only brigands. Assassins and duelists have built in escape and restealth tools. Brigands do not. They're also not any tankier than assassins or duelists, and in many cases they're less tanky. They also have glacial stealth speed for reasons I still don't understand.

"As a wood elf" only covers wood elves. Brigands are not a wood elf subclass. They're a ranger subclass. I play a human brigand specifically because stealth makes up for the loss of mobility, the base stats are tankier, I have more slots on the crowded melee tray, and candle makes for a nice bow auto damage buff. Minos are also completely viable brigands due to their stun immunity and racial synergy with the ranger ult. Assuming that all rangers are or should be wood elves is a frankly terrible way to view ranger balance.

Try playing a human or mino brigand that can't blink 40 meters away in 2 seconds and then come back and tell me this change isn't a big deal.

All I'm asking for is some basic level QoL for the much maligned brigand while the rest of the stealth subset of builds is getting some basic QoL as a result of this change.

Being able to stealth while a DoT is running isn't that useful to a template that moves as slowly as the brigand does while stealthed. Or just don't make trap detonation trigger combat mode on its own at the very least so we're not WORSE off, but just at the same level of awkward middling completion that we were before.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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In the current live patch there are passives that can be slotted exclusively to the survival tray (for example passives sourcing from exploration disciplines).
After removal of the survival tray and simultaneous removal of passive slots/passive cap, how will those passives work?
Will passive abilities be activated or deactivated based on being IC/OOC?

Relevant Example:
Slotting the exploration discipline Connoisseur grants the passive Glycolysis, which only goes into the survival tray passive slots. On current live patch, this is already a useful discipline/passive in combat, since it allows players to regain stamina by weaving into survival tray and consuming apples.
In a scenario where all passives are active independent of IC/OOC in addition to a neat Consumables slot, it would be possible to spam apples to regain stamina in combat (tray) and potentially even during Block/Parry, given that Connoisseur remains unchanged.

Edited by Fayde

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9 minutes ago, Fayde said:

In the current live patch there are passives that can be slotted exclusively to the survival tray (for example passives sourcing from exploration disciplines).
After removal of the survival tray and simultaneous removal of passive slots/passive cap, how will those passives work?
Will passive abilities be activated or deactivated based on being IC/OOC?

Relevant Example:
Slotting the exploration discipline Connoisseur grants the passive Glycolysis, which only goes into the survival tray passive slots. On current live patch, this is already a useful discipline/passive in combat, since it allows players to regain stamina by weaving into survival tray and consuming apples.
In a scenario where all passives are active independent of IC/OOC in addition to a neat Consumables slot, it would be possible to spam apples to regain stamina in combat (tray) and potentially even during Block/Parry, given that Connoisseur remains unchanged.

Glycosis only restores stamina when stamina is regening, and stamina cannot regen while it's being used. Your fear of never-ending Block won't happen


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Bye survival tray, it was good the time it lasted 🙋‍♂️

All those changes open to a lot of questions, specially around powers (passives, actives, specific to survival tray etc...) and i hope we will have a good bunch of responses in the next Dev Diaries (still thanks to @thomasblair to have given us some responses there yet)

Can't wait to test it on February, this seems to have a large impact on a lot of things even if it's not one of those poletent thingy

Oh and i can dump all those tutorials videos about those trays, damn !

Edited by Gorwald

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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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13 hours ago, thomasblair said:

1) Being on any NPC's hate list will keep you in combat. When it dies or leashes you are removed thus dropping ooc. If you are on a players hate list and damage them within 10 seconds you are in combat. Using any combat power (tray / left clicks) will briefly put you into combat for the animation length plus a few seconds. If you are on no hate lists, you drop out.

I'm trying to work out how this will affect Rezzing. Previously most resurrects were performed from the Survival tray, now that is no longer an option. Clerics already have a famously cluttered bar and it would be tough to decide what to drop in order to keep a rezz up. However, if I am out of combat then I can hit K for skills and just swap rezz into a slot while its needed, and I expect this to be the new norm, right ? And the thing affected will be 'combat rezzing'. 

So, to work out when I can rezz, I need to know how the 'player hate list' reacts to non-damaging skills such as blocking and healing. According to TB above, casting Rezz from a tray will briefly put me in combat (?won't that cancel the rezz?) and then if I am not on a hate list I pop out of combat again. So, if I am not damaging anyone does that mean I keep slipping out of combat every 2 seconds, between abilities? That would be great for mana and stamina regeneration and durability (and glycolysis as @Fayde mentioned). Would it also make combat rezzing a bit easier and so might be worth carrying on your active bar? Currently you have to wait for the tray switch cool downs before casting the rezz, now I can just fire it off in a gap and pray that a stray arrow / aoe target selection doesn't catch me.

Or, does the act of healing or buffing an ally who is on a player hate list also put the healer on the players hate list? If so all actions will keep me in combat and I'll only ever be able to rezz after I exit the players hate list... Which is how ? Does it time out if they are not being damaged by you? Or do they need to die/zone to remove me from their hate list. 

Either way, hitting K and skill switching in the gaps in combat is going to be the new norm for rezzers and I only need to understand the delays involved to combat. Given that it is currently possible to change skills and passives in Combat, on the fly, at will perhaps it will become the new norm for all who will feel challenged by loosing skill slots

I realise that most healers also like to hurt people in current gameplay, but could there be an advantage to just healing/buffing/blocking, not just for the extra regen, but also for 2 second access to K skill switching and a potentially limitless power tray!?!

Can't wait for TEST and thanks for this Dev Diary approach, will allow us to work out what we want to test better .....more betterer .... much more betterly .... bestist.

Cheers

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I'm liking the new changes. I hope they also did away with the chicken drums for hunger and replaced it with something else. My previous recommendation was "Well Fed, Full, Satisfied, Hungry, Starving, etc."

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3 hours ago, Raindog said:

I realise that most healers also like to hurt people in current gameplay, but could there be an advantage to just healing/buffing/blocking

Clerics deal damage to get the ult up asap lest the miracles stop flowing, an arch or earthkeeper must deal damage to prevent essence burn, and a pally that doesn't ever swing is just wrong.

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