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Forecore

Skill ceiling compared to other games?

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Which action target MMO has similar skill ceiling? How does it rank compared to mainstream games like ESO, GW2, Tera? 

I am interested in factors like

twitchyness

timing

positioning

environment awareness

group coordination

situational awareness

The videos I am seeing it feels like a 1 or 2 button smashing. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Forecore said:

The videos I am seeing it feels like a 1 or 2 button smashing. 

I can confirm that is not the case.

All the skills you mention matter, although "twitchyness" is not an emphasis.

Edited by Jah

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The skill ceiling in this game isn't very high, I'd rank it similar to Guild Wars 2 or ESO. There's typically a rotation you'll need to learn, depending on your class, which maximizes your character's contribution to the group. 

Twitchyness - You have to aim your attacks, many of which will be raycasts. There are plenty of other abilities that are cones or spheres and hit everything within the target area. The game isn't very twitchy and is really more about group battles and cohesion.

Timing - When you use your abilities/cooldowns can matter a lot, especially in group fights. 

Positioning/Awareness - Both melee and ranged characters have to worry about positioning, even though melee fights tend to turn into giant rugby scrums. There are several mechanics that punish stacking up on a target (I'm looking at you druid). Melee need to be able to track their target through the chaos (focus fire wins the day), but also need to think about how they're going to retreat to their healers if they get in trouble. 

Group Coordination - This is where Crowfall shines. Many guilds take time to design and build cohesive group compositions which best allow them to implement their strategy. The guild/group which is the most cohesive will win, assuming all other factors are equal.


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As others mentioned, all those items matter. Compared to other game, I'd say the ceiling is quite a bit lower overall though.

Many abilities are instant cast, fire n forget, aoe, cone, raycast (soft lock), and most abilities have more then one element to them which removes some of the skill needed or decision making.

With even a small number of players on screen it becomes very messy where there isn't a whole lot of strategy involved, then again I'm not actively playing currently either so I could be wrong. Watching and listening to decent players on stream and their guild coordination, I don't believe I'm too wrong.

Even with classes or builds that make use of more than one power bar, I'd say that they are still more simplistic then something like GW2 or games with much larger skill bars. Along with the actual combat tech having low expectations.

Builds are rather limited despite the "endless possibilities" devs and some players claim. There just isn't enough variety of options or diversity within what is available.

Stack on a target, hit all the DMG/CC abilities, see a bunch of circles on the ground doing whatever, enjoy the FPS drop.

There are some fun and interesting powers like Myrm/Knight pulls but those are few and far between. A lot of game play is spam left click, wait to trigger a buff for a big hit, or just hit whatever is lowest health.

Combat as a whole has been quite a disappointment for me despite a lot of potential for the systems in place.

MMOs in general struggle to have a high ceiling outside of 1v1, 5v5, but can't really be helped. Crowfall though seems to suffer even more.

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My opinion is that CF is not a twitch-based combat with precise aiming like shooters (or Darkfall for mmos), it does have raycast or cone style aiming and blocking/dodging so that is a different feeling than tab target. GW2 is the closest thing to me, but CF has more of a group focus than GW2. 

This explains some of what is going on that you don't notice from videos if you aren't experienced with the CF group combat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqkySy8FMu0

 


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3 minutes ago, APE said:

With even a small number of players on screen it becomes very messy

Ironically, this is where it actually becomes "difficult" to land your shots. It's not that you have to aim precisely at your target-- you have to avoid hitting the wrong target with the overly "forgiving" large raycast / cone / smart targeting.

Landing a clutch Rescue on the ally that needs it, rather than some other random ally that is running nearby, or even behind you, takes some practice.


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Just now, Jah said:

Ironically, this is where it actually becomes "difficult" to land your shots. It's not that you have to aim precisely at your target-- you have to avoid hitting the wrong target with the overly "forgiving" large raycast / cone / smart targeting.

Landing a clutch Rescue on the ally that needs it, rather than some other random ally that is running nearby, or even behind you, takes some practice.

I wish all powers were like Rescue instead of being maybe 1-2 on the bar. Not to say everything is mindless faceroll, but overall it is a low skill ceiling, even with group tactics involved.

Unfortunately they've made a combat system and powers that have little option but to just activate something and hope it hits the intended target, if not move on to the next and try again. It's like the MMO version of spray n pray in a FPS.

I find WoW has a higher skill ceiling in an arena setup. Which makes so much effort into building an "Action" game a waste IMO.

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Very very low and easy to master. I mean you don't even need to have your reticle on your target to skill hit them. If you want to see a high skill mmorpg look up darkfall online and what they did.

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1 hour ago, IsilithTehroth said:

Very very low and easy to master. I mean you don't even need to have your reticle on your target to skill hit them. If you want to see a high skill mmorpg look up darkfall online and what they did.

Agreed.  Reasoning: I think this game is looking to a wider (and more boomery) market for its players and doesn't want people to need FPS reflexes.  Hell, I have a knight in my guild who cannot complete a chain pull to save his life (literally the only thing I need from him), we aren't even considering skill in this game - I'd say a different "feel" or "playstyle" possibly.  Problem with massive hitboxes is that they overlap and targets in close camera range (or even right directly behind your char model, but in view make "aiming" around them very difficult.

Edited by Ble

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I agree with those who said it's very, very low. Lower than Gw2 or ESO, at least years ago when I used to play those 2 games. I heard ESO pvp kept getting watered down with infinite stam/mag builds and proc sets tho, so could be different now. Crowfall is mostly about having the right builds and team comps and focusing single targets to death in the melee scrum. So in that regard group coordination is probably the strongest aspect, but even then it's kinda simplistic in its current form, compared to what group coordination looks like in other games. 

In large siege fights, if you're not a shot caller, most classes will just be spamming a few keys and tracking targets the whole time. Save a couple exceptions that have bit more interesting mechanics. 

 


 

 

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To expand upon what others have said, the only time aiming really becomes difficult is when you're trying to hit a specific target in a crowd.

Worth noting, though the raycast is large, it will select whatever VALID target is closest to your crosshair. 

For example, A ranger trying to hit a single target in a wide open space shouldn't miss.

A ranger trying to hit a single target that's standing among 10 other targets in a cluster will be harder to hit the target they desire. They'll hit SOMEONE, but if they're trying to focus fire a target at 10% who dives back into a group, they're likely to hit someone other than their intended target unless they have good aim. 

This is why tactics like tanks body blocking for low health friendlies come into play. Individual skill needed in Crowfall is not very high but group coordination and tactics can be quite high. 

 

 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Crowfall certainly has a higher skill-cap than people are giving it credit for. Sure it's not as high as some other games but there's absolutely a huge divide between a skilled veteran player and your average player.

Quite frankly many of the videos you see of Crowfall combat are pretty low end gameplay.

Funnily enough even the videos from the best players are going to be considered low end gameplay in the future. A perfect example of this is old WoW PvP videos that people looked to as "peak skill" are hilariously awful nowadays.

We haven't even scratched the surface yet. Particularly when it comes to group coordination and synergy.

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5 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

 but there's absolutely a huge divide between a skilled veteran player and your average player.

This is true in pretty much every game with skills involved so we can just eliminate that static variable. So, as you said...

 

5 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

Sure it's not as high as some other games but there's absolutely a huge divide between a skilled veteran player and your average player.

Hopefully this changes in the future, we still have time. 

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10 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

I agree with those who said it's very, very low. Lower than Gw2 or ESO, at least years ago when I used to play

Honestly this disheartening. Is this because it is pre alpha wip, engine limitations, or CW is doing on purpose?

I am not looking for high skill ceiling game like Darkfall, but I also don't want to a snooze fest game. If game can't hold interest for first hour it won't last. We have seen this in retail wow and other watered down MMO that continues to experience decline.

With 40 million people playing Overwatch, I think medium skill ceiling games are mainstream and we'll accepted these days. If they think a less skill game is the ticket to mass acceptance this strategy will backfire. I really hope final game will have higher skill ceiling than ESO and GW2.

Edited by Forecore

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4 hours ago, Forecore said:

I really hope final game will have higher skill ceiling than ESO and GW2.

What do you mean specifically here? It's not fair to compare CF to multiplayer arena games with matchmaking systems, but GW2 and ESO are reasonable standards to meet. Some specific examples of how you think the skill ceiling could be higher would help. If it's about hit boxes/raycasts and aiming, I think that is constrained somewhat by performance atm but could be improved in the future.


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5 hours ago, Forecore said:

Honestly this disheartening. Is this because it is pre alpha wip, engine limitations, or CW is doing on purpose?

It's a combo of multiple factors. Engine, team talent/experience, design goals, game systems, optimization, etc.

Combat started as one thing, received negative feedback then morphed into what is has become over years. Along the way they've changed things here and there, let go of certain design goals, and overall have a sort of piecemeal end product.

Like they have over the shoulder zoomed in POV, reticle, and the illusion that physics/aim are a big deal (which I believe was the plan), but they really aren't or at least not as they could be. Even if they were, due to the mosh pit style of engagements, most of that would be useless. 

Quote

I am not looking for high skill ceiling game like Darkfall, but I also don't want to a snooze fest game. If game can't hold interest for first hour it won't last. We have seen this in retail wow and other watered down MMO that continues to experience decline.

All MMOs experience decline and ACE could only wish they could be as popular and successful as WoW of any version. Clearly that won't be anywhere near reality.

Quote

With 40 million people playing Overwatch, I think medium skill ceiling games are mainstream and we'll accepted these days.

Not sure why you would call OW medium skill. There is a pretty big divide between tiers of players. There is individual hero skill ceilings, game knowledge/sense, and team play that all take a lot individually and as a whole. Unless you mean a lot of people play in middle SR and keep the game going just fine? To me that is how most eSport and competitive games work. Bell curve. Accessible, relatively easy to learn, hard to master individually and even harder as a team.

Quote

If they think a less skill game is the ticket to mass acceptance this strategy will backfire. I really hope final game will have higher skill ceiling than ESO and GW2.

Don't see how that is possible at all. Would take a lot of changes to almost every aspect of the game (classes, powers, disciplines, physics, combat mechanics, engine, optimization, gear, stats, etc).

With all that, it is still enjoyable for what it is and the game is more then just combat despite how important I value direct conflict. It can always improve, but I don't foresee it being known for combat specifically, at least not to people that have played at least a handful of games. To people that played Shadowbane or more clunky combat systems, Crowfall might be a high skill ceiling.

There will definitely be a gap between good and bad players, but as others have mentioned, team play and more big picture strategy will likely be more important.

IMO, if they had swapped to a hybrid tab/soft lock system some what like GW2, it would of resulted in a more enjoyable experience. They could of designed classes/powers differently and combat would simply play out in other ways. Is what it is. Likely would of had a higher skill ceiling and overall would of felt more challenging and satisfying. Despite all the hate tab gets, it works and is used in a lot of games for a reason. Other upcoming MMOs are using hybrid systems. Trying to be a "action game" and not quite making it isn't impressive. Especially when there are things like Tera and BDO to compare to.

Edited by APE

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10 hours ago, Forecore said:

Honestly this disheartening. Is this because it is pre alpha wip, engine limitations, or CW is doing on purpose?

I am not looking for high skill ceiling game like Darkfall, but I also don't want to a snooze fest game. If game can't hold interest for first hour it won't last. We have seen this in retail wow and other watered down MMO that continues to experience decline.

With 40 million people playing Overwatch, I think medium skill ceiling games are mainstream and we'll accepted these days. If they think a less skill game is the ticket to mass acceptance this strategy will backfire. I really hope final game will have higher skill ceiling than ESO and GW2.

APE has pretty much explained everything. It is what it is. People will play Crowfall for the same reasons they play games like EVE or Albion, definitely not for engaging action combat. 


 

 

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12 hours ago, Forecore said:

Honestly this disheartening. Is this because it is pre alpha wip, engine limitations, or CW is doing on purpose?

I am not looking for high skill ceiling game like Darkfall, but I also don't want to a snooze fest game. If game can't hold interest for first hour it won't last. We have seen this in retail wow and other watered down MMO that continues to experience decline.

With 40 million people playing Overwatch, I think medium skill ceiling games are mainstream and we'll accepted these days. If they think a less skill game is the ticket to mass acceptance this strategy will backfire. I really hope final game will have higher skill ceiling than ESO and GW2.

I'm an ex Darkfall player and I still enjoy CF combat. 

For what Crowfall lacks in FPS / mechanical skills it makes up for it in a very deep character building where game knowledge and tactics play a big part in winning a fight. 

Some classes have higher skill ceiling than others. I enjoy Myrmidon Titan promotion because it's high risk, high reward and considered one of the harder classes to play. Yumx did a wonderful write up on the various classes and it includes a "difficulty" rating: 

 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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I wouldn't say Crowfall has deep character building at the moment though it certainly has the illusion of it. There are a lot of stats but ultimately not many of them are super impactful in the build creation for a character. Its pretty straight forward for most of the classes in the game. 

More unique stats, disciplines, advantages and disadvantages, abilities, and class reworks would go a long way to helping CF combat

Edited by 1304049

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