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Forecore

Skill ceiling compared to other games?

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

I'm an ex Darkfall player and I still enjoy CF combat. 

For what Crowfall lacks in FPS / mechanical skills it makes up for it in a very deep character building where game knowledge and tactics play a big part in winning a fight. 

Some classes have higher skill ceiling than others. I enjoy Myrmidon Titan promotion because it's high risk, high reward and considered one of the harder classes to play. Yumx did a wonderful write up on the various classes and it includes a "difficulty" rating: 

Myrmidon and archdruid are probably the most interesting classes available in terms of gameplay mechanics. They're the exceptions I mentioned in my previous post. I don't know a whole lot about how current myrm titan works, but sadly archdruid, despite still being interesting, is just a watered down version of the original vanilla druid. Druid was so awesome at launch, one of the most interesting class designs I've seen in any MMO. No clue why they had to dumb it down so much.

 

1 hour ago, 1304049 said:

I wouldn't say Crowfall has deep character building at the moment though it certainly has the illusion of it. There are a lot of stats but ultimately not many of them are super impactful in the build creation for a character. Its pretty straight forward for most of the classes in the game. 

More unique stats, disciplines, advantages and disadvantages, abilities, and class reworks would go a long way to helping CF combat

The game will definitely need a comprehensive balance pass and probably minor revamps across all classes and discs to make as many of them as viable as possible at launch. 


 

 

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Hopefully after 5.11 they spend sometime adding more to the classes. The macro aspects of Crowfall are interesting, there's definitely is a skill cap associated with it. However classes themselves feel a little vanilla. 

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2 hours ago, 1304049 said:

I wouldn't say Crowfall has deep character building at the moment though it certainly has the illusion of it. There are a lot of stats but ultimately not many of them are super impactful in the build creation for a character. Its pretty straight forward for most of the classes in the game. 

More unique stats, disciplines, advantages and disadvantages, abilities, and class reworks would go a long way to helping CF combat

I would like to see some skill disapline that convert how a skill might function. couple examples Disapline for archery left click may reduce dmg output but give it a piercing affect to hit 3 targets in a row instead of 1, or converts a healing spell to do dmg instead or vice versa.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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12 hours ago, miraluna said:

What do you mean specifically here? It's not fair to compare CF to multiplayer arena games with matchmaking systems, but GW2 and ESO are reasonable standards to meet. Some specific examples of how you think the skill ceiling could be higher would help. If it's about hit boxes/raycasts and aiming, I think that is constrained somewhat by performance atm but could be improved in the future.

I am wrapping up my current crop of games and will start CF as new player as soon as next patch hits.  I don't have many specific. My impression is from Twitch and YouTube. It is possible game feels very different then it looks on video.

Generic suggestions are:

Tighten up hit box

Tone down too much visual aid like ground marking indicating every enemy attack/aoe, visible hp bar on every enemy at any given time, etc. Tone things down that belongs more on a RTS game then on action target MMO.

Diversity in spells so it is not just laser with different color.

Cost of skills snd spell are felt so they are not spammed but carefully used.

Proper resource management.

 

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28 minutes ago, Forecore said:

Tighten up hit box

curious from only watching why you would think the hit boxes are too big?

Tone down too much visual aid like ground marking indicating every enemy attack/aoe, visible hp bar on every enemy at any given time, etc. Tone things down that belongs more on a RTS game then on action target MMO.

with the amount of aoe in this game you will die if you can’t see it all. I do agree the visuals (like the fire) are FPS killers and need to be on a toggle

Cost of skills snd spell are felt so they are not spammed but carefully used.

Proper resource management.

Certain classes/builds do have to mind their resources, but they aren’t meta right now. For the most part tho I agree. Healers especially are only restricted by CDs not resource. 

See bolded 

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2 hours ago, oneply said:

See bolded 

On regards to your aoe reply, even no graphic and a red outline helps in that regard you know it bad (Dunno how bad) but in huge fights it better than nothing.

tbh the problem i have with AoE is there a cap on the amount it can hit so it promotes the zerg ball tactic alot and rushing to the tree and stacking up.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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19 hours ago, veeshan said:


tbh the problem i have with AoE is there a cap on the amount it can hit so it promotes the zerg ball tactic alot and rushing to the tree and stacking up.

100%

they would do a lot for the game to change that. I don’t necessarily think all aoe powers should get the treatment but a lot of them should. 

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21 hours ago, veeshan said:

On regards to your aoe reply, even no graphic and a red outline helps in that regard you know it bad (Dunno how bad) but in huge fights it better than nothing.

tbh the problem i have with AoE is there a cap on the amount it can hit so it promotes the zerg ball tactic alot and rushing to the tree and stacking up.

uncap druid balls and stormcallers aurora emitter pls


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On a scale from 1 to 10, where 10 is GW2 combat system during their cyber-sports time (1st expansion) / Blade and Soul fighter like combat system, I would rate Crowfall as 6-7 (7 at release, when combat glitches are fixed).
However game is developed about idea of massive battles and organized groups winning campaigns, which leads to unavoidable technical issues (lags/freezes). Having a bit more forgiving combat system in such cases is an advantage for the game health.

Edited by ComradeAma

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Crowfall has a decent skill cap; however, it doesn't have anywhere near the APM required of DOTA, CS, or any of the other big esports game. Most of the skill comes from playing with and around other people, theory crafting builds, positioning, and using skills efficiently based on the evolution of a fight. 

I would recommend not listening to people who've never been seen logged in the game.

Edited by Zatch

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8 hours ago, ComradeAma said:

However game is developed about idea of massive battles and organized groups winning campaigns, which leads to unavoidable technical issues (lags/freezes). Having a bit more forgiving combat system in such cases is an advantage for the game health.

That's to be seen. "Massive" battles might mean 50-100-500+ to different people. So far Crowfall seems like it will struggle with larger numbers where other games do as well if not better without needing to compensate with lackluster combat. Camelot Unchained is still a good ways off but they put a heavy focus in making their own engine, while not sacrificing more interesting combat/class mechanic plans. If Crowfall ends up struggling with <200 players and combat isn't overly interesting compared to others, that will be a lose/lose. Hopefully it works itself out.

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6 hours ago, Zatch said:

Crowfall has a decent skill cap; however, it doesn't have anywhere near the APM required of DOTA, CS, or any of the other big esports game. Most of the skill comes from playing with and around other people, theory crafting builds, positioning, and using skills efficiently based on the evolution of a fight. 

Most if not all competitive games, especially team based, require all of those things while also having more mechanical requirements or at least a higher skill ceiling overall. Crowfall unfortunately doesn't compensate with one while lacking in the other. Would love for them to making position matter a lot more with actual positional skills along with a more complex character building system. Maybe passive change and eventual Advantage/Disadvantage system will help.

6 hours ago, Zatch said:

I would recommend not listening to people who've never been seen logged in the game.

Anyone with decent eye sight can see what a game has to offer without ever installing themselves. Not sure I've ever seen a game that I thought looked super easy/hard then tried it and felt different.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

That's to be seen. "Massive" battles might mean 50-100-500+ to different people. So far Crowfall seems like it will struggle with larger numbers where other games do as well if not better without needing to compensate with lackluster combat. Camelot Unchained is still a good ways off but they put a heavy focus in making their own engine, while not sacrificing more interesting combat/class mechanic plans. If Crowfall ends up struggling with <200 players and combat isn't overly interesting compared to others, that will be a lose/lose. Hopefully it works itself out.

From my experience the bottleneck of massive fights is server performance, not client  side rendering. You can always cheat the way how characters models, animations and particles are displayed to degrade visuals but massively improve fps. There is no such trick for server side though. We already saw server handling 100 vs 100 (plus quite stable rendering if you turn off client UI (looks like biggest bottleneck for rendering atm, but pretty optimisable)), so I do not have such concerns. I would be happy if game can handle 100 vs 100 vs 100 in the same fight around 30 fps. I got a few fights like that in my experience from GW2 glory days and it was a real clustercustard, where usual tactics stop working and everything becomes mess. Even if game supports bigger number, not sure it will be fun to be in such battle.

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I enjoy an element of skill in games, but I think sometimes what we call skill isn't as much skill as it is programs people can download and ping.  I loved, LOVED darkfall, but eventually found out that some of the players I thought were so skilled had figured out pixel detection programs etc and no company can fully keep those out of the game.  With that said, as much as I loved darkfalls combat, I prefer something a little less of an exact aim as some will figure out pixel detection/bot/programs and then you have the ping issues, so I prefer more of a tera or BDO style combat.  More of a larger hit box where a program isn't going to always determine the outcome and ping isn't as big a deal.  It's so rare to see no lag in an mmo anymore, so that would be my preference.  I will say, friendly fire makes it so aoe spam isn't going to win all fights, makes it so small groups can be large groups if planned well.  

1.  So aim to shoot yes, exact pin point aiming like an fps no

2.  Friendly fire yes

3.  Extra damage for attack in the back yes

4.  Limited crowd control

That's what I'd like :)

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@ComradeAma At launch ESO had nearly flawless performance, it was glorious to see. At the very least a couple hundred players on screen and very little lag. Then they kept adding stuff to make the game prettier and beef up the endgame grind, like fancy lightining and particle effects, and champion points that forced the server that track poorly made socksloads of more interactions and numbers, and performance went to the garbage bin. Might be better these days, wouldnt know. But I saw it with my eyes back then, it is possible to happen. Apparently CU has great performance as well from early tests, just poorly made socksty graphics to go with it. But at least the foundation is there. 

 

 

 

 


 

 

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On 1/19/2020 at 3:43 AM, oneply said:

100%

they would do a lot for the game to change that. I don’t necessarily think all aoe powers should get the treatment but a lot of them should. 

Like for one campaign test to see what would happen if they removed the cap limit. No harm tbh at this stage of the game.

This is the best time to try these things out.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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19 hours ago, veeshan said:

Like for one campaign test to see what would happen if they removed the cap limit. No harm tbh at this stage of the game.

This is the best time to try these things out.

They need to do something to make Zerg/blob busting possible. This is the easiest solution. 

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On 1/16/2020 at 11:21 PM, APE said:

It's a combo of multiple factors. Engine, team talent/experience, design goals, game systems, optimization, etc.

Combat started as one thing, received negative feedback then morphed into what is has become over years. Along the way they've changed things here and there, let go of certain design goals, and overall have a sort of piecemeal end product.

Like they have over the shoulder zoomed in POV, reticle, and the illusion that physics/aim are a big deal (which I believe was the plan), but they really aren't or at least not as they could be. Even if they were, due to the mosh pit style of engagements, most of that would be useless. 

All MMOs experience decline and ACE could only wish they could be as popular and successful as WoW of any version. Clearly that won't be anywhere near reality.

Not sure why you would call OW medium skill. There is a pretty big divide between tiers of players. There is individual hero skill ceilings, game knowledge/sense, and team play that all take a lot individually and as a whole. Unless you mean a lot of people play in middle SR and keep the game going just fine? To me that is how most eSport and competitive games work. Bell curve. Accessible, relatively easy to learn, hard to master individually and even harder as a team.

Don't see how that is possible at all. Would take a lot of changes to almost every aspect of the game (classes, powers, disciplines, physics, combat mechanics, engine, optimization, gear, stats, etc).

With all that, it is still enjoyable for what it is and the game is more then just combat despite how important I value direct conflict. It can always improve, but I don't foresee it being known for combat specifically, at least not to people that have played at least a handful of games. To people that played Shadowbane or more clunky combat systems, Crowfall might be a high skill ceiling.

There will definitely be a gap between good and bad players, but as others have mentioned, team play and more big picture strategy will likely be more important.

IMO, if they had swapped to a hybrid tab/soft lock system some what like GW2, it would of resulted in a more enjoyable experience. They could of designed classes/powers differently and combat would simply play out in other ways. Is what it is. Likely would of had a higher skill ceiling and overall would of felt more challenging and satisfying. Despite all the hate tab gets, it works and is used in a lot of games for a reason. Other upcoming MMOs are using hybrid systems. Trying to be a "action game" and not quite making it isn't impressive. Especially when there are things like Tera and BDO to compare to.

The difference in skill between overwatch and CS:Go is huge. Cs:go is all about player skill and knowledge. Overwatch is all about knowledge and using alts, fps skills matter but not as much. Really wish we could get another Darkfall with modern graphics and sandbox content.

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I like CF's skill levels because you can have highly skilled players who play the hard-to-play-but-super-important classes like Confessors and you can have people like me who play Pitfighter, which is basically a 6 year old kid wrapped in bubblewrap and wielding a foam baseball bat.

Both classes are very useful in GvG


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