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EnsaimadaBlanca

Balancing measures in population terms!

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Today I open this thread so that the whole community can help developers not to make a serious mistake in crowfall since today the closing of a steam-launched game called Rend was announced. I clarify that this thread more than a precise suggestion is carried out to inform and make us find a solution together.

First I want to briefly explain what Rend is and what happened to him:
Rend is a survivalist game that was based on campaigns like crowfall which had 3 factions as crowfall but with a freestyle like any other survival like Ark, Rust etc. Their campaigns did not have a time limit in which they ended but ended when a faction got a certain number of points, the first to get it was victorious it was estimated that it would last a few weeks due to the speed of obtaining points. Although it seems that this is the problem from my point of view it is not because Todd already talked about anti-snowball measures which I trust are appropriate. What really worries me is if we are really going to have the problem in crowfall that the more game time available to players of a faction will result in a guaranteed victory.

In addition, it should be added that there may be different numbers of players in the factions which makes the numbers can be very different, I give an example: in one faction, more players usually play than those of another and also the average time they can devote to the Game a day is double that of the other faction makes it a guaranteed victory.

Then all this thread is created with the intention of maximizing the balance of players connected simultaneously to all factions in a campaign so that there is always the same number (x) or (x + 2) of players at most connected to the same time in all the factions of a campaign. With this we would avoid many problems of imbalance between factions and player communities. Remember that the demotivation generated by connecting in a campaign which is impossible to win because the numbers clearly indicate it is something that will force an almost instantaneous disconnection of the campaign if not also from the game in the short medium term. Of course this would create queues and also if many friends wanted to enter a campaign this could cause an infinite queue but fervently I insist that it is better for everyone that the game is balanced in all aspects at 100% and sacrifice as far as this but crowfall suffer of a quite significant problem in which it will be based on guilds of different sizes and the more people more likely to win. Think of it as the different fighting styles are categorized by the weight of the fighters or as in all kinds of sports, you don't think that it is also something we should consider. I only try to suggest things in the games in which I have faith and that honestly things do not arise with a deep balance in terms of population and opportunities.

Finally, a very clear example so that you understand what I am talking about what would happen if in a MOBA as everyone will know some as a league of legends or dota 2, if instead of entering 5v5 they entered 2v5 or 5v3 it would be totally absurd they would not take long to close the game not even 2 weeks Keep in mind that if the game offers the same possibilities to all players equally in all areas that will be the key to success for crowfall. In addition I also add that there should be a system of a couple minutes in case someone accidentally lost the connection in a campaign and did not have to stand behind the queue to join again in the game he was playing.

Greetings to all and good luck with the project.

PS: I am sorry I had not been brief as I would have liked, here I leave you another suggestion that I created a while ago about a kind of contact table with the other players of the same faction and campaign so that people can communicate and find different groups and objectives within the campaigns: 

 

 

Spanish

hoy abro este hilo para que toda la comunidad pueda ayudar a los desarrolladores a no cometer un grave error en crowfall ya que hoy mismo se anuncio el cierre de un juego lanzado en steam llamado Rend. Aclaro que este hilo mas que una sugerencia precisa es llevado a cabo para informar y hacer que entre todos encontremos una solucion. 

Primero quiero explicar brevemente que es Rend y que le ocurrio: 
Rend es un juego survivalista que se basaba en campañas como en crowfall las cuales tenian 3 facciones como crowfall pero con un estilo libre como cualquier otro survival como Ark, Rust etc. Sus campañas no tenian un tiempo limite en el cual terminaban sino que terminaban cuando una faccion conseguia determinado numero de puntos, la primera en conseguirlo se alzaba victoriosa se estimaba que duraria unas semanas debido a la velocidad de obtencion de puntos. Aunque parezca que este es el problema desde mi punto de vista no lo es porque todd ya hablo sobre las medidas anti-snowball las cuales confio en que son adecuadas. Lo que si que me preocupa es si realmente en crowfall vamos a tener el problema de que cuanto mas tiempo de juego dispongan los jugadores de una faccion va a traducirse en una victoria asegurada. 

Ademas hay que añadir que puede haber diferentes cantidades de jugadores en las facciones lo cual hace que los numeros puedan llegar a ser muy dispares pongo un ejemplo: en una faccion juegan habitualmente mas jugadores que los de otra y ademas el tiempo promedio que pueden dedicarle al juego al dia es el doble que la de la otra faccion hace que se convierta en un victoria asegurada.

Entonces todo este hilo esta creado con la intencion de fomentar al maximo el balanceo de jugadores conectados simultaneamente a todas las facciones en una campaña de tal forma que siempre haya el mismo numero(x) o (x+2) de jugadores como maximo conectados a la vez en todas las facciones de una campaña. Con esto evitariamos muchos problemas de desbalanceamiento entre facciones y comunidades de jugadores. Recordad que la desmotivacion generada al conectar en una campaña la cual es imposible de ganar porque los numeros lo indican claramente es algo que va a forzar una desconexion casi instantanea de la campaña si no tambien del juego a corto medio plazo. Por supuesto esto crearia colas y ademas si muchos amigos quisieran entrar en una campaña esto podria provocar una infinita cola pero fervientemente insisto en que es mejor para todos que el juego sea balanceado en todos los aspectos al 100% y sacrificar en medida esto sino crowfall padecera de un problema bastante significativo en el cual se basara en gremios de diferentes tamaños y cuanta mas gente mas probabilidad de ganar. Piensenlo como en los diferentes estilos de lucha estan categorizados por el peso de los combatientes o como en todo tipo de deportes, no crees que tambien es algo que deberiamos tener en cuenta. solo intento sugerir cosas en los juegos en los que tengo fe y que honestamente no se plantean las cosas con un profundo balanceamiento en terminos de poblacion y oportunidades. 

Finalmente un ejemplo muy claro para que entendais de lo que hablo que pasaria si en un M.O.B.A como todos conocereis alguno como liga de las leyendas o dota 2, si en lugar de entrar 5v5 entraran 2v5 o 5v3 seria totalmente absurdo no tardarian en cerrar el juego ni 2 semanas. Tened muy encuenta que si el juego ofrece las mismas posibilidades a todos los jugadores por igual en todos los ambitos eso sera de la llave del exito para crowfall. Ademas tambien añado que deberia haber un sistema de un par minutos por si alguien perdiera la conexion en una campaña accidentalmente y no tuviera que ponerse detras de la cola para unirse otra vez en la partida que estaba jugando.

un saludo para todos y buena suerte con el proyecto.

PD: siento no haber sido ten breve como hubiera querido, aqui os dejo otra sugerencia que cree hace un tiempo sobre una especie de tabla de contacto con los otros jugadores de la misma faccion y campaña para que la gente pueda comunicarse y encontrar diferentes grupos y objetivos dentro de las campañas: 

 

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

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Simply put, MMOs are not fair and can not be fair in the form Crowfall is being built.

This is why PVP open world MMOs in general perform poorly compared to eSports and MMOs with structured PVP (Arenas/Battlegrounds).

If you want "fair" matches then you have to play games designed from the ground up with some form of balance in mind. Those games have ranks, leaderboards, MMR, and systems to attempt to balance players against similarly skilled opponents on top of built in things like team size.

This is partly why many Crowfall fans see the Factions as meh and Dregs (Guild v Guild) as the "real game." ACE isn't doing anything new or special with faction game play. Much older games do it better already and Camelot Unchained is coming which will likely do it much much better.

Guild vs Guild is again not built around fairness. Those that have more members, more time, more skill, more money (alt accounts, VIP maybe) will likely do better. That is just how these games work. You either accept it or find something else.

For some the extra challenge of going up against a larger force is fun, for others it sucks.

There is a view that PVP MMOs don't work or that people don't like PVP but it is more that open world unfair designs tend to die off due to various factors. People love PVP and MOBA, FPS, RTS, CCG, MMO Arenas are plenty proof of this.

ACE's answer is to have Campaigns (Matches) that end so people can try again, must like a MOBA game. Still all the MMO variables of unfairness will be there at the start of each campaign be it Faction or Dregs.

There are ways to reward players for playing on the losing/underdog faction in attempt to balance sides but it isn't an easy or guaranteed solution. More of a band aid on a leaking wound that can't be fixed.

Rend was a decent concept but the implementation wasn't great and they suffered because of it. Crowfall might follow as despite the concept, it still maintains the problem of open world unfair PVP MMOs and despite all the hardcore folks that believe they will be the best, more people lose then win and there are just so many other options out there that require less time, money, effort, skill, stress, etc.

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There is HUGE Exploit in that case/ Make another acc, join opposing Faction and stay afk. Most of the top guilds can do it.

the only way to equalize the number of players in fractions is economic. increase decay if your fraction dominates the numbers, decrease the reward, etc. .. It is possible to set the maximum deviation in the number, but not hard.

Edited by VAsia

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37 minutes ago, VAsia said:

There is HUGE Exploit in that case/ Make another acc, join opposing Faction and stay afk. Most of the top guilds can do it.

the only way to equalize the number of players in fractions is economic. increase decay if your fraction dominates the numbers, decrease the reward, etc. .. It is possible to set the maximum deviation in the number, but not hard.

I cannot agree with that cause if alt accounts are the problem the solution is easyer is been known for all of us that there are lots of games which solved pretty easy the alt accounts and afk/bots


                                                 

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16 hours ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

Today I open this thread so that the whole community can help developers not to make a serious mistake in crowfall since today the closing of a steam-launched game called Rend was announced. I clarify that this thread more than a precise suggestion is carried out to inform and make us find a solution together.

First I want to briefly explain what Rend is and what happened to him:
Rend is a survivalist game that was based on campaigns like crowfall which had 3 factions as crowfall but with a freestyle like any other survival like Ark, Rust etc. Their campaigns did not have a time limit in which they ended but ended when a faction got a certain number of points, the first to get it was victorious it was estimated that it would last a few weeks due to the speed of obtaining points. Although it seems that this is the problem from my point of view it is not because Todd already talked about anti-snowball measures which I trust are appropriate. What really worries me is if we are really going to have the problem in crowfall that the more game time available to players of a faction will result in a guaranteed victory.

In addition, it should be added that there may be different numbers of players in the factions which makes the numbers can be very different, I give an example: in one faction, more players usually play than those of another and also the average time they can devote to the Game a day is double that of the other faction makes it a guaranteed victory.

Then all this thread is created with the intention of maximizing the balance of players connected simultaneously to all factions in a campaign so that there is always the same number (x) or (x + 2) of players at most connected to the same time in all the factions of a campaign. With this we would avoid many problems of imbalance between factions and player communities. Remember that the demotivation generated by connecting in a campaign which is impossible to win because the numbers clearly indicate it is something that will force an almost instantaneous disconnection of the campaign if not also from the game in the short medium term. Of course this would create queues and also if many friends wanted to enter a campaign this could cause an infinite queue but fervently I insist that it is better for everyone that the game is balanced in all aspects at 100% and sacrifice as far as this but crowfall suffer of a quite significant problem in which it will be based on guilds of different sizes and the more people more likely to win. Think of it as the different fighting styles are categorized by the weight of the fighters or as in all kinds of sports, you don't think that it is also something we should consider. I only try to suggest things in the games in which I have faith and that honestly things do not arise with a deep balance in terms of population and opportunities.

Finally, a very clear example so that you understand what I am talking about what would happen if in a MOBA as everyone will know some as a league of legends or dota 2, if instead of entering 5v5 they entered 2v5 or 5v3 it would be totally absurd they would not take long to close the game not even 2 weeks Keep in mind that if the game offers the same possibilities to all players equally in all areas that will be the key to success for crowfall. In addition I also add that there should be a system of a couple minutes in case someone accidentally lost the connection in a campaign and did not have to stand behind the queue to join again in the game he was playing.

Greetings to all and good luck with the project.

PS: I am sorry I had not been brief as I would have liked, here I leave you another suggestion that I created a while ago about a kind of contact table with the other players of the same faction and campaign so that people can communicate and find different groups and objectives within the campaigns: 

 

 

Spanish

hoy abro este hilo para que toda la comunidad pueda ayudar a los desarrolladores a no cometer un grave error en crowfall ya que hoy mismo se anuncio el cierre de un juego lanzado en steam llamado Rend. Aclaro que este hilo mas que una sugerencia precisa es llevado a cabo para informar y hacer que entre todos encontremos una solucion. 

Primero quiero explicar brevemente que es Rend y que le ocurrio: 
Rend es un juego survivalista que se basaba en campañas como en crowfall las cuales tenian 3 facciones como crowfall pero con un estilo libre como cualquier otro survival como Ark, Rust etc. Sus campañas no tenian un tiempo limite en el cual terminaban sino que terminaban cuando una faccion conseguia determinado numero de puntos, la primera en conseguirlo se alzaba victoriosa se estimaba que duraria unas semanas debido a la velocidad de obtencion de puntos. Aunque parezca que este es el problema desde mi punto de vista no lo es porque todd ya hablo sobre las medidas anti-snowball las cuales confio en que son adecuadas. Lo que si que me preocupa es si realmente en crowfall vamos a tener el problema de que cuanto mas tiempo de juego dispongan los jugadores de una faccion va a traducirse en una victoria asegurada. 

Ademas hay que añadir que puede haber diferentes cantidades de jugadores en las facciones lo cual hace que los numeros puedan llegar a ser muy dispares pongo un ejemplo: en una faccion juegan habitualmente mas jugadores que los de otra y ademas el tiempo promedio que pueden dedicarle al juego al dia es el doble que la de la otra faccion hace que se convierta en un victoria asegurada.

Entonces todo este hilo esta creado con la intencion de fomentar al maximo el balanceo de jugadores conectados simultaneamente a todas las facciones en una campaña de tal forma que siempre haya el mismo numero(x) o (x+2) de jugadores como maximo conectados a la vez en todas las facciones de una campaña. Con esto evitariamos muchos problemas de desbalanceamiento entre facciones y comunidades de jugadores. Recordad que la desmotivacion generada al conectar en una campaña la cual es imposible de ganar porque los numeros lo indican claramente es algo que va a forzar una desconexion casi instantanea de la campaña si no tambien del juego a corto medio plazo. Por supuesto esto crearia colas y ademas si muchos amigos quisieran entrar en una campaña esto podria provocar una infinita cola pero fervientemente insisto en que es mejor para todos que el juego sea balanceado en todos los aspectos al 100% y sacrificar en medida esto sino crowfall padecera de un problema bastante significativo en el cual se basara en gremios de diferentes tamaños y cuanta mas gente mas probabilidad de ganar. Piensenlo como en los diferentes estilos de lucha estan categorizados por el peso de los combatientes o como en todo tipo de deportes, no crees que tambien es algo que deberiamos tener en cuenta. solo intento sugerir cosas en los juegos en los que tengo fe y que honestamente no se plantean las cosas con un profundo balanceamiento en terminos de poblacion y oportunidades. 

Finalmente un ejemplo muy claro para que entendais de lo que hablo que pasaria si en un M.O.B.A como todos conocereis alguno como liga de las leyendas o dota 2, si en lugar de entrar 5v5 entraran 2v5 o 5v3 seria totalmente absurdo no tardarian en cerrar el juego ni 2 semanas. Tened muy encuenta que si el juego ofrece las mismas posibilidades a todos los jugadores por igual en todos los ambitos eso sera de la llave del exito para crowfall. Ademas tambien añado que deberia haber un sistema de un par minutos por si alguien perdiera la conexion en una campaña accidentalmente y no tuviera que ponerse detras de la cola para unirse otra vez en la partida que estaba jugando.

un saludo para todos y buena suerte con el proyecto.

PD: siento no haber sido ten breve como hubiera querido, aqui os dejo otra sugerencia que cree hace un tiempo sobre una especie de tabla de contacto con los otros jugadores de la misma faccion y campaña para que la gente pueda comunicarse y encontrar diferentes grupos y objetivos dentro de las campañas: 

 

Fights aren't intended to be fair.  You know who complains about it not being fair?  The loser.  This is war.  If you come to CF expecting good fights, chill bros and even numbers you are going to be disappointed.  I aim to win by any means necessary because that's the kind of game this is.  I can't beat you on the field?  Can I harass your bros?  Can I cause dissent among the ranks?  Who are your allies?  Who are your enemies?  Do I have a warchest to pay to inflate my ranks if needed?  When does your guild farm?  Who are your harvesters/crafters and where do they hide?  Personal 1v1 skill is the least important factor to winning a war and if CF has gotten anything right they have replicated that.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I've got to agree with Mandalore. What takes place on the battlefield when a fight begins is the closing chapter of a longer story. Logistics, politics, intel, deception, and subterfuge all come into play to insure victory before the battle has begun.

the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

Edited by VaMei

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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

Fights aren't intended to be fair.  You know who complains about it not being fair?  The loser.  This is war.  If you come to CF expecting good fights, chill bros and even numbers you are going to be disappointed.  I aim to win by any means necessary because that's the kind of game this is.  I can't beat you on the field?  Can I harass your bros?  Can I cause dissent among the ranks?  Who are your allies?  Who are your enemies?  Do I have a warchest to pay to inflate my ranks if needed?  When does your guild farm?  Who are your harvesters/crafters and where do they hide?  Personal 1v1 skill is the least important factor to winning a war and if CF has gotten anything right they have replicated that.  

That zerg more mentality. 

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5 hours ago, mandalore said:

Fights aren't intended to be fair.  You know who complains about it not being fair?  The loser.  This is war.  If you come to CF expecting good fights, chill bros and even numbers you are going to be disappointed.  I aim to win by any means necessary because that's the kind of game this is.  I can't beat you on the field?  Can I harass your bros?  Can I cause dissent among the ranks?  Who are your allies?  Who are your enemies?  Do I have a warchest to pay to inflate my ranks if needed?  When does your guild farm?  Who are your harvesters/crafters and where do they hide?  Personal 1v1 skill is the least important factor to winning a war and if CF has gotten anything right they have replicated that.  

if there is no equality of conditions in all areas and for all players there will be no competitiveness and if a game is not competitive and balanced there will only be a stage of growth and its consequent fall without brake. the inequality and incoherence which will affect the healthy life of the game and the potential buyers of Crowfall if from the first minute they see how the game depends on how much more massification means more reward, it will happen as in many other "loser" games, there will always be a larger group that will attract more people and so consecutively, which will force many players to not only stop buying the game but even abandon it right after it is released.

Now I will go to the personal since you take the trouble to name me as a loser for putting a criticism that anticipates the events. You have a dictator mentality to go over any obstacle in any way just to achieve your purpose but you forget that war is not fought in 2 days and in the long term your subjects will have too many enemies to stand up to that false courage.

"If you come to CF expecting good fights, chill bros and even numbers you are going to be disappointed"

good marketing, make a marketing suggestion with it ;)

"Personal 1v1 skill is the least important factor to winning a war and if CF has gotten anything right they have replicated that."

Of course, it is much better to win a war 50v15v30 which translates to little fun and less competitiveness, do not forget that this is a game and that to be fun it has to be for all 3 sides in this case.

 "I can't beat you on the field? Can I harass your bros? Can I cause dissent among the ranks? Who are your allies? Who are your enemies? Do I have a warchest to pay to inflate my ranks if needed? When does your guild farm? Who are your harvesters / crafters and where do they hide? "

All this mentioned above has nothing to do with it and it is very far from what I am talking about. All that you mention will not make sense if there is no equal population among all the factions of a campaign.


                                                 

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Why are so many peoples obsessed with making everything fair? If you think this game will ever be fair based on population I doubt youve played it. 

And faction gameplay will be a dead zone of people who can’t hack it in gvg/dregs. I doubt they’ll stick around long even if they equalize everything. This game is being built for a different gamer mindset. If it doesn’t align with what you want there’s tons of junky wow clones to play. 

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The only place it makes any sense at all to load balance players is as they join the campaign, and that's less to ensure balanced fights and more to prevent people from purposely stacking the match before it starts. In truth you can't perfectly balance a population this size. You can only make it a pain in the ass to metagame the starting condition.

Beyond simply counting players there are simply too many variables to competitively balance without severely infringing on player's freedoms to choose their methods of campaign play.

This isn't DOTA. It isn't going to be fair. It isn't supposed to be. The fact that it isn't fair is why campaigns exist in the first place. All PvP MMOs eventually result in a landscape where one team of players beats all the other players in to submission. This is the natural order of things, and its why matches end to give everyone a fresh(ish) start

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Hace 19 minutos, PopeUrban dijo:

El único lugar en el que tiene sentido cargar a los jugadores de equilibrio es cuando se unen a la campaña, y eso es menos para controlar las peleas equilibradas y más para evitar que las personas apilen el propósito del partido antes de que comience. En verdad, no se puede equilibrar perfectamente una población de este tamaño. Solo puedes hacer que sea un fastidio metagamar la condición inicial.

Más allá de simplemente contar jugadores, simplemente hay demasiadas variables para equilibrar competitivamente sin infringir severamente las liberaciones de los jugadores para elegir sus métodos de juego de campaña.

Esto no es DOTA. No va a ser justo. No se supone que sea. El hecho de que no sea justo es la razón por la cual existen campañas en primer lugar. Todos los MMO PvP finalmente dan como resultado un paisaje en el que un equipo de jugadores supera a todos los demás jugadores en la sumisión. Este es el orden natural de las cosas, y es por eso que los partidos terminan para darles a todos un nuevo comienzo (ish)

If there is no balance between the population of the factions, the game will lose all meaning is what I try to explain with different examples, and each one chooses the phrase that best suits your way of seeing it to deny reality.

It is not about forcing to the maximum balance but trying to be as balanced as possible because if not the game will not be competitive and will only be based as you say in several groups of different sizes well organized destroying everything.

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

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5 minutes ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

If there is no balance between the population of the factions, the game will lose all meaning is what I try to explain with different examples, and each one chooses the phrase that best suits your way of seeing it to deny reality.

It is not about forcing to the maximum balance but trying to be as balanced as possible because if not the game will not be competitive and will only be based as you say in several groups of different sizes well organized destroying everything.

My form of competition is convincing other people to log out so I don't have to fight them.


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9 minutes ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

If there is no balance between the population of the factions, the game will lose all meaning is what I try to explain with different examples, and each one chooses the phrase that best suits your way of seeing it to deny reality.

It is not about forcing to the maximum balance but trying to be as balanced as possible because if not the game will not be competitive and will only be based as you say in several groups of different sizes well organized destroying everything.

faction ruleset is meant to be the noob ruleset, youre not supposed to stay in factions forever, its where you make friends, form a guild, and then go into dregs where its guild vs guild making their own cities and ruling their own territory, there is no point to balance factions when its meant as a stepping stone


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1 hour ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

Stuff

Ask any PvP MMO player if they remember the fight they had were it was even numbers. Then ask them to recount an outnumbered fight. You'd be hard pressed to find any remembrance of the former and many fond memories of the latter. 

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2 minutes ago, Zatch said:

Ask any PvP MMO player if they remember the fight they had were it was even numbers. Then ask them to recount an outnumbered fight. You'd be hard pressed to find any remembrance of the former and many fond memories of the latter. 

i will forever remember the 9v9 where heartsteel single handedly won the fight and crippled the opposing guild permanently by making 2 people quit the game 


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49 minutes ago, Staff said:

faction ruleset is meant to be the noob ruleset, youre not supposed to stay in factions forever, its where you make friends, form a guild, and then go into dregs where its guild vs guild making their own cities and ruling their own territory, there is no point to balance factions when its meant as a stepping stone

guild v guild will be determined by numbers again ;) +ppl +rewards +ezwin

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

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26 minutes ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

guild v guild will be determined by numbers again ;) +ppl +rewards +ezwin

youre gonna have a bad time if you try to regulate guild numbers


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4 minutes ago, Staff said:

youre gonna have a bad time if you try to regulate guild numbers

again how many times you will missunderstand? im not trying to regulate guild numbers im trying to regulate campaing numbers is not that hard to understand anyways everything seems beautifull till the reality proves it

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

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