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Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)


kris

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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Please remove Telegraphs. They disrupt the immersion of the game, and detract from the PvP enjoyability immensely. Part of being a "new" and "different" mmo should consist of removing a lot of the handholding we typically see in this genre. Which, hey, Crowfall is largely already accomplishing by allowing players to lose their hard work on death or conquest losses, and this telegraph nonsense is just another thing that needs to go.

 

It is not visually pleasing, and it takes away from a player's need to learn animations and patterns. It promotes an autopilot method of play while creating a pool of distracting glowy colors that absorb all of the attention of nearby individuals. It' just a giant blob of disgusting fluff that no game should ever consider adding.

 

 

Down with telegraphs!

 

========================

 

1- 263 votes out of 14000 backers isn't the majority, it's just a very vocal minority.  The vast majority of backers haven't even visited this thread.

 

2- Correcting your statement, 1.87% of the total number of backers is disagreeing with the usage of telegraphs.  Sorry, but ACE is under no obligation to support such a tiny minority, no matter how loud they cry.

 

3- Now you are just making fallacious arguments. "OMG, Crowfall has graphics and king's quest ALSO had graphics, Crowfall is obviously going to be a single-player point and click adventure puzzle game!" - No, sorry.  In reality you can take a good working idea from another game and use it without the entire game becoming a clone of that other game.

 

----------------------------

 

 

 

Besides all that, imagine for a moment you are fighting a GIANT FIRE MONSTER, something I'm sure Crowfall will be full of after a dev reads my amazing suggestion post. The giant fire monster uses his powerful attack on you, and you die instantly! What happened?  Well, there was no telegraph whatsoever, so you couldn't see the attack coming. Sorry, you lose. Now you can't disagree with me anymore because the giant fire monster killed you, so I win by default.

 

How can you have amazing PvP raids with giant fire monsters if you don't have telegraphs?

 

I'd like to state that despite your valid reasoning regarding majority / minority, I do not like you, or your opinions. The game is mostly about Player vs Player combat, not Player vs. "Super Large Monster that has poor attack pattern conveyence and/or poor attack animations that only exists due to it being suggested by a single outspoken community member".

 

If you want to play the 1.87% card (Which has actually risen since your post), then you could do the same for the other side of the equation.

272 of the 14,000 backers do not want telegraphs. (1.94%)

98 of the 14,000 backers do not mind telegraphs, but feel like they are currently "too much" (0.70%)

56 of the 14,000 backers want telegraphs (0.40%)

13,574 of the 14,000 backers have yet to cast a vote (96.95%)

 

It's a minority either way, and your minority is the smallest one, so I hardly see how you can play the vocal minority card and then act as though you are on the correct side of the argument. The only 'fair' thing to do is publicly release a survey and see what the majority is from that pool. Until a larger sample size is taken, you will only obtain a very small percentage from both sides, which for all we know, may never happen.

Edited by Delfofthebla
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There's no arguing with karnos, he hasn't listened to the arguments made against his in any threads I've seen him posting his opinions.

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Haha... telegraphs = easy mode... You clearly have never done any kind of high level PvE. I'm getting a very PvP elitist vibe from you. Actually mostly just an elitist vibe.

 

Telegraphs have the beneficial effect of clarifying gameplay, the downside can be *somewhat* mitigated by their visual presentation. In WildStar there were a variety of parameters to allow you to tune the opacity and color of each different type of telegraphs, to make them as relevant to each player as they chose.

 

Of course it would be nice if all animations were so perfectly clear that telegraphs were unnecessary, but then the animations are just dressed-up telegraphs.

 

That's exactly the god damn point. They make your life too easy, they tell you things you might have otherwise noticed. Let's take that fire giant example, its a god damn fire giant, if you don't see its fist about to crush you, that's your fault, not the game faults client in not displaying a massive visual cue for the player in form of a telegraphs, when the god damn fist is a visual cue itself.

 

And now you're speaking as if we've had telegraphs in games for past 15 years, when in reality games with telegraphs are a completely minority. In fact, only casualized (as in made easy on purpose) possess telegraphs.

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No, because using telegraphs gives you a clear advantage and lowers the skill ceiling. Telegraphs need to be removed entirely.

It doesnt lower the skill ceilling....

All i hearing from this post is telegraphs bad, no skill, handholding, blah blah blah

 

So the problem seems to be....average joe plays a little better with telegraphs ( which means killing the average player is harder which is good for pvp, becuase you dont want boring extremely one sided fights right? i mean your "hardcore") Because lower barrier of entry is lower, skill cap is lower, becuase youve seen one telegraphs youve seen them all, so no need to wonder what that telegraph does just dodge it everytime it pops up becuase ill be able to dodge ALL the attacks that come my way !

 

Some elite people dont feel special now because low skill entry they cna do what i can do.

"this strategy was previously for the elite players who knew exactly how to do the kiting process."  "Now its for every average joe out there to do the same."

Oh im sorry mr elite man now your not one of a few that can do that. If only the other elite people who have played mmos for over 20ish or so years hadnt shown it off to us average player when they killed us we wouldnt know your super secret kiting technique which now everyone who plays mmos knows about.  Now you will have to work harder to be better and be super elite again. I hope we dont ring your fun by having fun ourselves.

 

Im sorry to the poster who i quoted but man did that post sounded so 1 percenter like.  " It seems this resturant will allow anyone in now, i think its time to go to a more exlusive more expensive resturant, who wont allow anyone who doesnt have at least 10 million dollars!"

 

Just turn them off... yes it may be a disadvantage, but.... what you guys are saying is... i want the game to be hard, i want to learn the animations. then go ahead and do it.... if turning off telegraphs is a disadvantage then the game is already harder for you one problem solved, Without telegraphs on you will have to learn the anmation just like you want. another problem solved.

 

And lastly your assuming the skill lvl will be low becuase of telegraphs. we dont even freaking know what the combat will be we have a few seconds of one class sing 3 skills. Thats all, we are making asumptions, why not wait till alpha comes out and you try it for a while, and give the devs your feedback, if it truly sucks and enough people complain, then it will get changed. Maybe giving the devs some fallback ideas would be great, so if they f up it wont take them long to fix combat, you know having limited resources and all.

 

THe devs have said in the reddit AMA animations are the most expensive thing..... so having these super detailed animations people can learn ( while possibly fighting 40+ people becuase its that sort of game not 2v3 or 1v1 except the tourney system currently) might not be financially viable for them, niche auidence , niche amount of money. (possible exceptions)

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It doesnt lower the skill ceilling....

All i hearing from this post is telegraphs bad, no skill, handholding, blah blah blah

 

So the problem seems to be....average joe plays a little better with telegraphs ( which means killing the average player is harder which is good for pvp, becuase you dont want boring extremely one sided fights right? i mean your "hardcore") Because lower barrier of entry is lower, skill cap is lower, becuase youve seen one telegraphs youve seen them all, so no need to wonder what that telegraph does just dodge it everytime it pops up becuase ill be able to dodge ALL the attacks that come my way !

 

Some elite people dont feel special now because low skill entry they cna do what i can do.

"this strategy was previously for the elite players who knew exactly how to do the kiting process."  "Now its for every average joe out there to do the same."

Oh im sorry mr elite man now your not one of a few that can do that. If only the other elite people who have played mmos for over 20ish or so years hadnt shown it off to us average player when they killed us we wouldnt know your super secret kiting technique which now everyone who plays mmos knows about.  Now you will have to work harder to be better and be super elite again. I hope we dont ring your fun by having fun ourselves.

 

Im sorry to the poster who i quoted but man did that post sounded so 1 percenter like.  " It seems this resturant will allow anyone in now, i think its time to go to a more exlusive more expensive resturant, who wont allow anyone who doesnt have at least 10 million dollars!"

 

Just turn them off... yes it may be a disadvantage, but.... what you guys are saying is... i want the game to be hard, i want to learn the animations. then go ahead and do it.... if turning off telegraphs is a disadvantage then the game is already harder for you one problem solved, Without telegraphs on you will have to learn the anmation just like you want. another problem solved.

 

And lastly your assuming the skill lvl will be low becuase of telegraphs. we dont even freaking know what the combat will be we have a few seconds of one class sing 3 skills. Thats all, we are making asumptions, why not wait till alpha comes out and you try it for a while, and give the devs your feedback, if it truly sucks and enough people complain, then it will get changed. Maybe giving the devs some fallback ideas would be great, so if they f up it wont take them long to fix combat, you know having limited resources and all.

 

THe devs have said in the reddit AMA animations are the most expensive thing..... so having these super detailed animations people can learn ( while possibly fighting 40+ people becuase its that sort of game not 2v3 or 1v1 except the tourney system currently) might not be financially viable for them, niche auidence , niche amount of money. (possible exceptions)

 

And this is what modern mmos have done with the gaming community.

 

yes, lets help little johnny to be as good as the players investing time and efforts into their character, because all kids are winners right?

Whats next?  we cant have losers in the campaign because it might hurt someones feelings?

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You repeatedly said that the telegraph were ugly, which is really an optimization issue. Adding slider to adjust color and opacity doesn't seen like a great objection, and will likely be added (there are color-blind people to think of). Maybe an option to select which telegraph you see, such as ranged or AoE attacks only.

 

As to the concern that no one will look at the animations, if the animations are good, how is it less informative than a telegraph? Also, how do you learn attack patterns in PvP? Are you thinking of combo attacks instead of individual moves?(Genuine questions, please reply)

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It is not visually pleasing, and it takes away from a player's need to learn animations and patterns. It promotes an autopilot method of play while creating a pool of distracting glowy colors that absorb all of the attention of nearby individuals. It' just a giant blob of disgusting fluff that no game should ever consider adding.

 

 

If you can tell what sort of attack is coming based on the animation or predictable pattern, that is literally the textbook definition of what it means to telegraph.

 

You essentially just said "I hate telegraphs, instead players should learn to identify telegraphs".

 

I'm perfectly fine with the placeholder telegraph markings on the ground being removed, as the developers said they would be, as long as they are replaced with some other form of telegraph that is usable.

 

>If you want to play the 1.87% card (Which has actually risen since your post), then you could do the same for the other side of the equation.

 

You didn't understand my argument. Someone who is interested in crowfall as-is based on what the hear and see might just back the game and never bother to even sign up on the forums, they don't care, the game looks great. Someone like nehemia on the other hand, might not back the game at all, because they see the video and consider the telegraph animations completely unacceptable, instead they want to complain as loud and constantly as they can, so they seek out the forums and make posts and get some gratification because the majority of people who do come to the suggestion forum are people who want to suggest something, not people who are 100% happy with the game as presented.

Edited by karnos
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If you can tell what sort of attack is coming based on the animation or predictable pattern, that is literally the textbook definition of what it means to telegraph.

 

You essentially just said "I hate telegraphs, instead players should learn to identify telegraphs".

 

I'm perfectly fine with the placeholder telegraph markings on the ground being removed, as the developers said they would be, as long as they are replaced with some other form of telegraph that is usable.

 

>If you want to play the 1.87% card (Which has actually risen since your post), then you could do the same for the other side of the equation.

 

You didn't understand my argument. Someone who is interested in crowfall as-is based on what the hear and see might just back the game and never bother to even sign up on the forums, they don't care, the game looks great. Someone like nehemia on the other hand, might not back the game at all, because they see the video and consider the telegraph animations completely unacceptable, instead they want to complain as loud and constantly as they can, so they seek out the forums and make posts and get some gratification because the majority of people who do come to the suggestion forum are people who want to suggest something, not people who are 100% happy with the game as presented.

 

I am well aware of what the definition of Telegraph is. However, in the context of this thread, and games in general, the term "Telegraph" is used to represent the specificaly generated graphic or special effect that 'telegraphs' a currently performing action.

 

These "telegraphs" are often included in games for several reasons.

1) The default animation system is too primitive, and is unable to properly convey a future action

2) The developers feel that it is "too hard" or "too tedious" to ask a player to rely on said systems, so they add in special effects that make doing so "easier"

3) The developers have or had no intention of ever creating an animation that could properly convey a future action, but they feel said action should be conveyed.

4) There are Projectiles or AoE type effects going off near the player, but the player may not be immediately aware of who was causing said effects, or how far away they are coming from.

 

However, I disagree with every single one of these reasons. I also do not agree that "everything should be telegraphed". That is to say, simple basic melee attacks and movesets do not need a large windup with an over exaggerated animation only designed to show players what is about to happen--I should not need to see what's about to happen. My opponent is swinging a sword/hammer/or whatever else; that is all I need to know, and that is all I need to 'see'. I also do not need a large enough window to be able to dodge everything. There is no need to make everything so dramatic and slow. And if I cannot "react" to the telegraph, why would it even exist in the first place?

 

But I especially hate telegraphs for AoE attacks and long range projectiles. No, game, I do not think you need to tell me that the giant cannon 100 miles away is shooting at me. I do not believe that is fair for me to have that knowledge. I do not believe that I should be able to predict that action and react accordingly unless I've seen previous cannon fire and am specifically tracking the fire-rate and projectile hit times in my own head. The biggest issue I have with this whole thing is that it conveys information that is either completely irrelevant, or completely unfair knowledge that I should not have. It's just all so stupid.

 

--

On the percentage/minority nonsense, I'll concede that forum posters are not necessarily "Backers", but I will say this: I backed the project because I fell in love with the primary design goals. (Dying worlds, eternal heroes, full loot pvp, different rulesets, archetypes over classes/races) However, that does not mean that after seeing everything in the video I determined that everything was perfect and there was no reason not to put down money. When I showed the kickstarter to my friends, and when I saw it myself, the graphics style and telegraphing stood out to all of us in a very negative way. Many of my friends chose not to back it because of these things.

 

I chose to back it because even if this game turns out to be "not for me", I want it to exist in the MMO market. I welcome just about anything that isn't a WoW clone these days. And even though I might be able to deal with lame combat mechanics, I would much rather the game be as enjoyable for me as it possibly can be. Because of this, I came to the forums to see if I could find other backers with a likemind and have us wave our banners of worry and fear in an attempt to correct things that we believe may harm the game for people with similar opinions, and it would appear to me that I have found them.

 

Some people may want the disgusting telegraph graphics and effects, and that would normally be fine, if there was a place for everyone, but well, there isn't. And MMO's in particular are few and far between in terms of room for individual preferences. When the developers have gone out of their way to "stray from the norm" and explicitly state that they "cannot please all people", I would prefer they change specific mechanics that can hurt their target audience (hardcore pvpers), into mechanics that the audience can agree with. And hardcore pvpers are much more likely to not want telegraphs than to want them, so why keep them?

Edited by Delfofthebla
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Source 1

Source 2

 

Edit: This is an example, made by sado, of what Crowfall would look like without the telegraphs:

http://justinlowe.name/telegra.webm

 

From the gameplay trailers, I think telegraphs don't fit in Crowfall, especially for non aimed attacks (cone/point blank aoe etc...)

- Too flashy and ugly.

- Trivialize the game, instead of looking at the character animations and learning the attack patterns, people will just end up looking at the ground.

- Some telegraphs for aimed and ranged AOE make sense, but make them subtle, not as flashy.

 

Don't do the same mistake Wildstar did. Overuse of telegraphs is not the way to go.

 

Thoughts?

Only big aoe things should have an Telegraph. To show the AOE range.

Everything else needs to be "oh he does that motion, lets do this. Doge LEFT!".

 

A short animation?

No worrys just get a feel for it.

CD?

Count baby, count it!

 

I didn't hate Telegraphs in Wildstar ... till i went into pvp.

It's madness, after 12 people spamm Telegraphs.. it's "round it goes" music while everyone runs in circles, and every space is plastered with telegraphs.

+effects

 

... and you cant see a think anymore.

 

For PvP single attack Telegraphs are sueless, and AOE big spell telegraphs are usefull.

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Remove them let be like Tera so player skill will make the difference in a good player and a great player and give players a reason to get beter and beter because of the high skill cap it has. Maybe very strong nukes you get a brief warning that its comming.

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I like mobility, and think they should stay in.

 

Its very hard especially in multiple on multiple person combat to tell each individual animation at a glance, and understand each individual ability going off at once, and each individual zone of threat

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You either want players to dodge attacks or you don't.  If you want them to dodge attacks then you must give them some sort of contextual clue.  For example, in Dark Souls or Bloodborne you can block, parry, and dodge attacks without a visual telegraph.  Buy how?  Because the attacks are telegraphed not by colored overlays on the ground but by the mobs' attack animations which are very slow for the most part; there is a big and very specific "wind up" before each attack.  Mobs in those games and players are both locked into their attack animations once they initiate and it's what makes the combat strategic, challenging, and often frustrating.

 

I don't see anyone having time to dodge anything without either have slow combat with animation lock, or a much faster visual cue aka the telegraph.   Many single player and even multiplayer games use this style of animation lock combat to great effect, but it's certainly not for everyone and some people will absolutely hate it.  Tera is just about the only MMO I can think of with this style combat and just for some of its classes and it's certainly not everyone's preference though a lot of people comment that combat is Tera's only redeeming quality.

 

On the flip-side you could say to hell with action combat and real-time dodging, just make dodge a passive stat and be done with it.  In which case people will just focus on mitigating damage instead of avoidance, and aoe abilities will either have to be limited to sustainable levels of damage or they will trump all, people will die en masse, and scream about unbalanced combat. 

 

A middle ground would be limiting telegraphs to what is immediately relevant to you character and making them much less in your face.  You could limit the visibility of telegraphs to only enemies that either you have hit or have hit you.  If you are going to have friendly fire you could limit the visibility of friendly telegraphs to those within the sound of your voice (like they are shouting out their intentions to rain fire down on your location).  You could definitely tone down the telegraphs to look like a shadow, a blur effect, or heat distortion or something much more subtle as well as having them flash only briefly on screen.

 

Without experiencing the combat it's hard to say if it's better or worse w/o them, because you need to design the combat with their use in mind, and designing the combat w/o them opens the question of what direction to take to differentiate Crowfall's combat from competitors.

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Words

Pretty much this.  I posted something similar in a different topic, but the point is colorful telegraphs on the ground aren't needed.  Animation tells are just as effective, but require more skill and learning to master.  Colorful little arcs and whatnot on the ground are just plain derp. 

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Telegraphs should go away : too flashy, and not promoting skilled gameplay.

 

AOE should also be limited to avoid AOE versus anti-AOE battle.

Hate to tell you this, if it's not tab targeting, it's aoe

 7d4g0V5.png

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