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kris

Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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You either want players to dodge attacks or you don't. If you want them to dodge attacks then you must give them some sort of contextual clue. For example, in Dark Souls or Bloodborne you can block, parry, and dodge attacks without a visual telegraph. Buy how? Because the attacks are telegraphed not by colored overlays on the ground but by the mobs' attack animations which are very slow for the most part; there is a big and very specific "wind up" before each attack. Mobs in those games and players are both locked into their attack animations once they initiate and it's what makes the combat strategic, challenging, and often frustrating.

 

I don't see anyone having time to dodge anything without either have slow combat with animation lock, or a much faster visual cue aka the telegraph. Many single player and even multiplayer games use this style of animation lock combat to great effect, but it's certainly not for everyone and some people will absolutely hate it. Tera is just about the only MMO I can think of with this style combat and just for some of its classes and it's certainly not everyone's preference though a lot of people comment that combat is Tera's only redeeming quality.

 

On the flip-side you could say to hell with action combat and real-time dodging, just make dodge a passive stat and be done with it. In which case people will just focus on mitigating damage instead of avoidance, and aoe abilities will either have to be limited to sustainable levels of damage or they will trump all, people will die en masse, and scream about unbalanced combat.

 

A middle ground would be limiting telegraphs to what is immediately relevant to you character and making them much less in your face. You could limit the visibility of telegraphs to only enemies that either you have hit or have hit you. If you are going to have friendly fire you could limit the visibility of friendly telegraphs to those within the sound of your voice (like they are shouting out their intentions to rain fire down on your location). You could definitely tone down the telegraphs to look like a shadow, a blur effect, or heat distortion or something much more subtle as well as having them flash only briefly on screen.

 

Without experiencing the combat it's hard to say if it's better or worse w/o them, because you need to design the combat with their use in mind, and designing the combat w/o them opens the question of what direction to take to differentiate Crowfall's combat from competitors.

Great post. A lot of people are against telegraphs yet don't get that animations are telegraphs too. It's all about how you want the information sent to you.

 

They say "well in massive fights telegraph spam is terrible"

 

They don't bother to include the alternatives, that is either single target tab targeting or massive fights with 3d graphic spam which is much worse than telegraphs and most computers wouldn't be able to run that, meaning large scale pvp would not be feasible

Edited by Evade2015

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Great post. A lot of people are against telegraphs yet don't get that animations are telegraphs too. It's all about how you want the information sent to you.

 

They say "well in massive fights telegraph spam is terrible"

 

They don't bother to include the alternatives, that is either single target tab targeting or massive fights with 3d graphic spam which is much worse than telegraphs and most computers wouldn't be able to run that, meaning large scale pvp would not be feasible

I dont like either telegraphs or flashy animations. Both slow the game down, causing lag and involuntary disconnects in big fights.

It's fine to put a minor graphic indication that shows the player what is hurting affected toons, but that's enough.

 

Both your sheeny choices tie up too much graphics computation for sieges IMAO.

 

Edit: I'm not advocating for any telegraphs. Just a simple indication of what is causing the damage, so we can learn what hurt or killed us.

        If the area stays perilous over some duration, sure, getting out of the area should help mitigate the peril.

        Ranged attacks that are physics based should likewise be visible as they travel along their trajectory.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I dont like either telegraphs or flashy animations. Both slow the game down, causing lag and involuntary disconnects in big fights.

It's fine to put a minor graphic indication that shows the player what is hurting affected toons, but that's enough.

 

Both your sheeny choices tie up too much graphics computation for sieges IMAO.

 

Edit: I'm not advocating for any telegraphs. Just a simple indication of what is causing the damage, so we can learn what hurt or killed us.

        If the area stays perilous over some duration, sure, getting out of the area should help mitigate the peril.

        Ranged attacks that are physics based should likewise be visible as they travel along their trajectory.

It sounds like you're asking for an indicator after the fact, which might not be a bad idea but still does nothing to help you dodge incoming damage.  If you want players to use active avoidance (not a passive dodge trait) to get out of the path of direct or AOE attacks then you have to give them some form of visual, pre-emptive tell.  Otherwise any active avoidance would purely be luck based, you just happened to step out of the way of that massive ring of fire before it spouted from the ground.  If you want to eliminate active avoidance that's a valid opinion but keep in mind that they would probably need to tone way down the damage and effectiveness of AOE damage if it was basically unavoidable, otherwise PvP would devolve into a massive AOE spam.   If AOE or charged directional attacks could be actively avoiding by dodging/stepping out of range, then they would have to be used more strategically like when your target it CC'ed, hemmed in, or otherwise too preoccupied to avoid them. 


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Great post. A lot of people are against telegraphs yet don't get that animations are telegraphs too. It's all about how you want the information sent to you.

 

They say "well in massive fights telegraph spam is terrible"

 

They don't bother to include the alternatives, that is either single target tab targeting or massive fights with 3d graphic spam which is much worse than telegraphs and most computers wouldn't be able to run that, meaning large scale pvp would not be feasible

 

Once again, in the context of this thread, and this disucssion in general, when people say "telegraphs", they are not referring to the actual definition of a telegraph, but rather, the explicit graphical representation of a future or currently performing action. Yes, character animations are technically telegraphs, but that is not what people are talking about when they use the term. They are talking about the giant red/blue/green circles, lines, and arrows that are attached to abilities for no purpose other than invasively telegraphing their actions.

 

On to the actual reply, how is "single target tab targeting" an alternative to telegraphs? Even in games where tab targetting is the norm, AoE effects are still extremely common. Yet these games typically do not have telegraph graphics at all. (Though WoW in particular has been adding them to recent raid boss encounters from what I hear.)

 

I would MUCH rather massive 3d graphic spam for the special effects of the abilities themselves--these are a component of the ability, a property that allows them to be more immersive. It's not something "extra" tacked on by the game to give you additional information, it's an artistical design choice for setting the tone, theme, and lore of the abilities.

 

But what's really important to note here is that the graphic effect is played AFTER the ability is performed, not before. This is the problem with telegraph graphics, they convey future actions in a dramatic and invasive manner for the sole purpose of informing the users around it. It's a form of invasive handholding, and it's unnecessary.

 

In some scenarios, the telegraph graphic inclusion can be a simple case of providing unfair information to your opponents. What if you snuck up on a guy and tried to do a forward damaging attack in their direction? Or you were behind them casting a long distance AoE directly on top of them? If they had telegraphs enabled, they would understand they are being attacked, and dodge out of the way--but there shouldn't have been a way for them to see you, you were behind them after all. How is that fair?

 

The argument that "telegraph graphic spam is just as bad as graphical effect spam" is not quite correct either, due to the conflicting goals. In both cases, it's very likely that there will be an option provided to turn them down or off completely. However, even if they both carry the same sense of "graphical intensity", I would prefer the 3D spell effects rather than the telegraph effects, for the same reasons I have mentioned above.

Edited by Delfofthebla

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I hope the animations for the attacks will get better, they are really bad rigth now, they don't match with the telegraph you see in the ground.

 

In TERA there is no telegraph, the animations for the skills are enough to see where the attack is hitting, Artcraft should work on that.

 

If the Animations are good enough there is no need of telegraphs.

 

LOL the animations WILL get better. This is alpha and those anims were first implementations just so that they could show some gameplay to us. How about we wait and see how things start to develop hmm?

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LOL the animations WILL get better. This is alpha and those anims were first implementations just so that they could show some gameplay to us. How about we wait and see how things start to develop hmm?

 

You do realize that the post you're quoting is a month old right? And the issue right now is that if the developers do end up relying on telegraphs there won't be any reason for them to make "proper" animations.

Edited by kairus

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You do realize that the post you're quoting is a month old right? And the issue right now is that if the developers do end up relying on telegraphs there won't be any reason for them to make "proper" animations.

With any developer who take themselves seriously, "proper" animations are going to be a big concern. Without falling into the pages long argument about telegraphs, I'd like to just note that if you don't have characters that are endearing and feel awesome to the players, your game will die. They know that. They've stated there will be "some" animation reuse between similar classes, but at the same time one can't honestly expect a game developer to just throw some rough animations on a character, throw down some pretty lines on the ground, and call it a day. They know they'd catch absolute hell from their players because of that. It's super early Alpha. Likely most of what's being argued here is going to be irrelevant in a few months time, and then doubly so a few months from that. 


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With any developer who take themselves seriously, "proper" animations are going to be a big concern. Without falling into the pages long argument about telegraphs, I'd like to just note that if you don't have characters that are endearing and feel awesome to the players, your game will die. They know that. They've stated there will be "some" animation reuse between similar classes, but at the same time one can't honestly expect a game developer to just throw some rough animations on a character, throw down some pretty lines on the ground, and call it a day. They know they'd catch absolute hell from their players because of that. It's super early Alpha. Likely most of what's being argued here is going to be irrelevant in a few months time, and then doubly so a few months from that. 

 

coughWildstarcough

 

EDIT:

 

dead-horse.gif

Edited by kairus

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coughWildstarcough

 

EDIT:

 

dead-horse.gif

 

 

Cough all you want, but you prove my point. Wildstar catches hell from people for going the route they did. There is simply no point in arguing things such as this and making such a huge fuss at this early stage. I agree that telegraphs suuuuuck in the biggest way possible, but that's not my point.

 

"And the issue right now (Read: Very early Alpha with nothing set in stone) is that if (Pretty huge "if" imo. They've not said if they're going one way or the other) the developers do end up relying on telegraphs there won't be any reason for them to make "proper" animations."

 

Basically, this is as of right now a non-issue. The devs are all over these forums just as much as we are, if not more so. They see and hear what the community has to say, and moreover they don't have a spreadsheet wielding marketing executive from a publishing company breathing down their necks. Chill out and wait to see what they have to say.

Edited by Arcahn

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Cough all you want, but you prove my point. Wildstar catches hell from people for going the route they did. There is simply no point in arguing things such as this and making such a huge fuss at this early stage. I agree that telegraphs suuuuuck in the biggest way possible, but that's not my point.

 

"And the issue right now (Read: Very early Alpha with nothing set in stone) is that if (Pretty huge "if" imo. They've not said if they're going one way or the other) the developers do end up relying on telegraphs there won't be any reason for them to make "proper" animations."

 

Basically, this is as of right now a non-issue. The devs are all over these forums just as much as we are, if not more so. They see and hear what the community has to say, and moreover they don't have a spreadsheet wielding marketing executive from a publishing company breathing down their necks. Chill out and wait to see what they have to say.

 

"They see and hear what the community has to say" is in fact a good reason to not be worried. They see and hear what I have to say, so I should stop talking? That definitely makes sense. The fact of the matter is that adjusting animations costs money, and if they have telegraphs, it won't be an immediate concern to have animations properly represent the area of effect and therefore increases the chances that the adjustment of said animations will be delayed further and further back, possibly beyond release.  I don't see how my reference to Wildstar "proves your point", because Wildstar went down the road of telegraphs and as a result their animations look like poorly made socks and the developers had no reason to improve them because it didn't affect gameplay due to the reliance on telegraphs. Just because they don't have executives doesn't mean that budget management isn't a huge part of designing a game.

 

This is a discussion forum so why you're telling me not to discuss is beyond me.

Edited by kairus

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"They see and hear what the community has to say" is in fact a good reason to not be worried. They see and hear what I have to say, so I should stop talking? That definitely makes sense. The fact of the matter is that adjusting animations costs money, and if they have telegraphs, it won't be an immediate concern to have animations properly represent the area of effect and therefore increases the chances that the adjustment of said animations will be delayed further and further back, possibly beyond release.  I don't see how my reference to Wildstar "proves your point", because Wildstar went down the road of telegraphs and as a result their animations look like poorly made socks and the developers had no reason to improve them because it didn't affect gameplay due to the reliance on telegraphs. Just because they don't have executives doesn't mean that budget management isn't a huge part of designing a game.

 

This is a discussion forum so why you're telling me not to discuss is beyond me.

I think we may be arguing two different things here. I was saying Wildstar was a prime example of telegraph overload, just as you were. Wildstar's animations are downright awful because they rely so heavily on telegraphs. It's clunky, it's ugly, and it's just plain bad. That's absolutely true. While we all have concerns about telegraphs becoming the "cop-out" for crappy animations in Crowfall, they've not said it will be. Maybe we should request another AMA or something so they can clarify their beliefs on what they'll be going with. Obviously budget management is still a huge deal, but with more free reign (and the assumption that they definitely want to build a game their fans want) comes the ability to tailor that budget in a direction that suits the desires of their players. If they go with heavily used telegraphs, I'll pick you up and we'll go violently wave protest signs at their front door until they stop.


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I think we may be arguing two different things here. I was saying Wildstar was a prime example of telegraph overload, just as you were. Wildstar's animations are downright awful because they rely so heavily on telegraphs. It's clunky, it's ugly, and it's just plain bad. That's absolutely true. While we all have concerns about telegraphs becoming the "cop-out" for crappy animations in Crowfall, they've not said it will be. Maybe we should request another AMA or something so they can clarify their beliefs on what they'll be going with. Obviously budget management is still a huge deal, but with more free reign (and the assumption that they definitely want to build a game their fans want) comes the ability to tailor that budget in a direction that suits the desires of their players. If they go with heavily used telegraphs, I'll pick you up and we'll go violently wave protest signs at their front door until they stop.

 

If anything we're arguing the same thing. But your trust of game developers is much higher than mine.

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If anything we're arguing the same thing. But your trust of game developers is much higher than mine.

That's fair. I mostly trust until they give me a reason not to. So far, ACE hasn't given me a reason not to. I damn sure hope they keep that up.


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Just to add my 2 Cents.  I want Telegraphs for personal spells or effects.  Currently as Confessor as an example, I have no idea where my aoe will hit or how big the radius is etc.  Where I do not want to see what is coming at me as that makes it too easy, I do want to know what I will be hitting if I chose to use the skill.  With an ability to turn it off if others do not like it.


Kloke

Shadowbane / Server: War / Guild: DHL / Thief: Yin / Scout: Plexiglassdragon

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Just to add my 2 Cents.  I want Telegraphs for personal spells or effects.  Currently as Confessor as an example, I have no idea where my aoe will hit or how big the radius is etc.  Where I do not want to see what is coming at me as that makes it too easy, I do want to know what I will be hitting if I chose to use the skill.  With an ability to turn it off if others do not like it.

 

Ok so 1) they've already said many months ago no telegraphs, and 2)they do need to improve combat animations and once they do you'll know exactly where your skills hit because the animations will match exactly the hitbox of your spells. Timing and placement of damage will coincide exactly with the animations, so they will be your "telegraphs" so to speak. You will very quickly learn where each spell hits and learn to aim accordingly.

Edited by Leiloni

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As long as I will know what I am hitting I am all good. I can learn to adapt without it, we all can but the entire reason we bought in as backers is to help steer the game is it not?

 

It never hurts to suggest or ask so long as we can accept the answer as well.


Kloke

Shadowbane / Server: War / Guild: DHL / Thief: Yin / Scout: Plexiglassdragon

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