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kris

Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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"you can turn off that aimbot, but you might fight someone who has it turned on, your choice!"

 

what will the majority of the playerbase do... I really can't tell

 

I'm not sure if you're addressing a concern or just trying to scarecrow my point? if everyone has equal footing than what's the issue?

 

If player uses the tells and another player chooses not to than that was their own choice. A game designer is not there to protect people from their own self imposed handicaps, they're there to make the game playable and as close to their vision as possible.

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fire away with other games then :)

 

I'll try them

I'm asking, how's the skill ceiling for Smite. It's going Esports level, and it's all over ground telegraphs. Not that I'd like that, just saying, honestly, I'd like more elements of Armored Core, I feel the control has the perfect balance of aiming and assistance for an action game, while the melee and projectile behavior would be totally rewritten to apply to this game... and the movement, I'm only suggesting the aiming functions :]

 

It's here if you have time.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2528-concerns-about-telegraphs-readability-and-controls/


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I personally like visceral combat, animations with weight and impact when you hit someone.  While I did actually enjoy Wildstar's combat, just not the rest of the game, for CF I hope you don't cleave through several targets at once Dynasty Warriors style.  Instead, there's flinching and deflection.  Balancing the speed and animations of combat isn't easy I imagine -- making things fluid, but weighty enough to feel powerful.

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IMO the reason so many mmo's have started using "telegraphs" are because mmo's in general have started to become so "flashy" with spell effects and particles flying all over the place and players no longer are able to see subtle "Animations" and other things like they used to.

 

So instead of toning this down more mmo's have began to use these giant, super-brighit telegraphs that basically hand hold you to tell you "HEY GET OUT OF THE WAY" instead of relying on a players ability to actually read his enemy and make the judgement himself.

 

I say get rid of telegraphs and focus on providing good animations that players can LEARN (through playing) over time to understand what is happening and how combat works. That's part of the fun of action-games, like DArk Souls, learning what the enemies do, their attacks, how to avoid them. It's what gives you that sense of accomplishment when you play it smart, you do not need giant flashy telegraphs to do this.

 

Agreed. I'd rather see tells in a players animation than have them telegraph everything.

I ESPECIALLY don't want to be dropping a meteor on someones head, only for them to see a big flashing telegraph on the ground and dodge out of the way. If they know I'm there, they should see my animation and know what's coming from experience. They can dodge based on experience, not because they see something on the ground (bar maybe a shadow hehe). But if they have no clue I'm there, why SHOULD they be able to just dodge away? Heck, even if they dodge me without telegraphs, it at least lets me try to lead the target. Maybe I know they see me, and aim behind them, so if they dodge behind, then they get hit. But if they dodge in another direction, well that is on me not because huuuurp, they saw a big set ring on the ground and moved.

Edited by Tyroki

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All they need to do is make an option to turn off telegraphs, everyone is happy.... this thread is just drama queen BS.

Turning off and completely disabling are a little bit diffrent. I believe completely disabling would be a better decision.

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All they need to do is make an option to turn off telegraphs, everyone is happy.... this thread is just drama queen BS.

 

No, because using telegraphs gives you a clear advantage and lowers the skill ceiling. Telegraphs need to be removed entirely.

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All they need to do is make an option to turn off telegraphs, everyone is happy.... this thread is just drama queen BS.

 

that fixes absolutely nothing...

congrats on missing the whole freakin point of this thread

Edited by freeze

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My response when I saw telegraphs in the Kickstarter promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

 

Please.  No. Just... No.  Watching the Centaur galloping by with big red flashes showing up on his screen was just really distracting.

 

I will back 500.00 just to not see  Telegraphs and some good animations.  The animations are very respectable... but Those alpha particle effects made me cringe when telegraphs were involved.  

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If you think telegraphs make things easy and require no skill you are delusional. Its just eye candy and a training tool.

I think you fail to see the gravity of the situation. The gameplay and behavior is structured around those telegraphs, it's not designed with the proper readability and behavior to operate without them, not using them would be a handicap.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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From your thread, BlackCrow:

"That being said, the best telegraphs are animations. If the animation for someone unleashing a meteor is their hands being raised above their heads like Goku charging the Spirit Bomb, you know what to look for. If you see someone in that pose (not saying that's the animation, as I have no idea what they'll go with), then you know "Oh feck, better get moving!"

The problem with ground tells is the enemy can't juke you by aiming the meteor elsewhere and mind-gaming you in to dodging right in to it's path. At the same time, if the enemy hasn't seen you in your animation because they're distracted by your ally, then your ally will know when to dodge based on co-ordination, but the enemy won't know what's coming until it's too late. Ground based telegraphs ruins this.

 

So yes. Telegraphs do remove skill. They also dull situational awareness, as you're just watching the ground for things to dodge. It gets a whole lot more interesting when you need to keep an eye out for other enemies. You can't just tunnel vision that one melee opponent when a bunch of his buddies could be hiding behind nearby trees with bows ready to shoot your bottom down."

This is why ground based telegraphs are bad, and why they 'require no skill'. At least for the dodger. It makes it all the more annoying for the person who is actually using the telegraphed skill. Again, animations should telegraph attacks, not some cone or circle on the ground.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, if you happen to see a big ass ball of fire coming your way (yay projectile speed!), you don't need some silly marking on the ground to know it's best to get your ass out of the way or be burned by a fireball. But if you don't see it, why should you get a free pass? It's your fault for not keeping an eye on your surroundings.

Edited by Tyroki

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Have you played a game with telegraphs? It might sound easy to dodge things, but the thing about most competative games is that it always seems easy to play well, but actually executing that is much harder. On the top of that even though you are able to dodge all moves, because you are the best player ever, you still have to land hits on other people who are as über skilled as you and dodge every move. Easy to understand dosen't mean easy to acctually do. I think a lot of players think hardcore means that the game should be hard to understand and play, but a truely hardcore game is a game where the players dedicate time to become skilled and geared are the once that do well. It's a pvp game after all. A pvp game does not stagnate in skill unless developers screw up really hard, and a telegraph system isn't an element that will make things less or more skilled, just more intuitive and easier to get in to so that players can start praticing on executing and true skill.

 

No I have not played a game with telegraphs, I am just stating things out of my head. 

 

I'm going to cut the sarcasm here. First things first, I do not argue about matters I have no experience of, simply because I could not argue about them rationally, and when arguing I strive to be as rational as possible. The thing is, whilst the telegraps provide their own play of field, it drastically cuts the time required to learn the game. I am in complete disagreement that truly competitive games are easy to learn, as higher the skill-ceiling the more competitive the game can be (which directly translates to a higher cap between the elite and the regular players). For stagnation we can compare Dota 2 and Heroes of the Storm, the other one uses telegraphs, the other one does not. Now, everyone who's played Dota knows that the learning curve in the game does not stop even after 5 years of actively playing the game. But HotS has major issue, a beginner can avoid opponents spells just because he knows where they have been placed at. It also helps them to hit spells drastically easier because they will see exactly whether that cone-based AoE in front of them hits 1 or 3 targets because of the UI. Believe it or not range of spells and attacks is a massively long progress to master, and telegraphs decrease this long progress by far too great of a number for me to want them in a game. Example of two spells here:

Invoker's Sunstrike in Dota 2 and Tyrandes Stun in HotS, whilst Sunstrike is global, the spells behave in a similiar manner. In Dota 2, if you want to avoid Invoker's Sunstrike when you're against him, you'll need to know exactly if he has the spell equipped, and if he casts it. Its extremely easy to mask Sunstrikes cast animation to be that small twitch the character makes, and it requires keen eye to even know he has casted it. After that the trouble comes, where did he cast it? It takes some time to land, but you simply have to understand the situtation and what the invoker is going after if you want to avoid the sunstrike. Tyrandes spell in Hots has similiar mechanics, but it lands even faster. The problem is that you can see where the spell is going to land, and no one will ever purposefully walk into that spell (unless they are beginners). Compare how much more skill Invokers sunstrike takes to cast, land and evade in comparison to Tyrandes stunspell. Invoker has to first mask-cast the spell, he needs to figure out where his opponent will be in a few seconds, and as a person you need to know invokers intentions to evade the spell. As for Tyrande, you cast the spell in a situtation you know the opponent cannot evade it, because he will if he has even the slightest chance of doing so. In order to avoid the spell you simply step out of a circle.

 

 

Kiting someone at a melee range in MMORPG is extremely difficult, something not typically considered a valid strategy and not often discussed simply because it is insanely difficult to provide stable kiting on a melee character, but it is possible. The difficulty comes from knowing exactly when you are in the opponents range, so you can keep yourself away from the range of the person you are kiting at all times. With telegraphs, this previously not typically considered valid strategy due to its difficulty will most likely be a valid strategy, because you'll see from the UI exactly when you are not in his range, or when you are in the persons range. This would mean that whilst we might have a new strategy for players to play out, this strategy was previously for the elite players who knew exactly how to do the kiting process. Now its for every average joe out there to do the same. It also applies to avoidance in melee combat, and not kiting by itself. Dancing on your opponents range and making sure you land hits when the opponent doesn't is a basic skill in any MMORPG without tab-targetting. Telegraphs massively decrease the skill required to pull this off as well.

 

 

The telegraphs themselves do create a new playing field, but the issue here with me is that they decrease the skill required and time to master the game way too much for the pros to beat the massive con, and that is casualization of the games skill level and I can personally never advocate a low skill-ceiling.

Edited by nehemia

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