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kris

Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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From your thread, BlackCrow:

"That being said, the best telegraphs are animations. If the animation for someone unleashing a meteor is their hands being raised above their heads like Goku charging the Spirit Bomb, you know what to look for. If you see someone in that pose (not saying that's the animation, as I have no idea what they'll go with), then you know "Oh feck, better get moving!"

 

The problem with ground tells is the enemy can't juke you by aiming the meteor elsewhere and mind-gaming you in to dodging right in to it's path. At the same time, if the enemy hasn't seen you in your animation because they're distracted by your ally, then your ally will know when to dodge based on co-ordination, but the enemy won't know what's coming until it's too late. Ground based telegraphs ruins this.

 

So yes. Telegraphs do remove skill. They also dull situational awareness, as you're just watching the ground for things to dodge. It gets a whole lot more interesting when you need to keep an eye out for other enemies. You can't just tunnel vision that one melee opponent when a bunch of his buddies could be hiding behind nearby trees with bows ready to shoot your bottom down."

 

This is why ground based telegraphs are bad, and why they 'require no skill'. At least for the dodger. It makes it all the more annoying for the person who is actually using the telegraphed skill. Again, animations should telegraph attacks, not some cone or circle on the ground.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, if you happen to see a big bottom ball of fire coming your way (yay projectile speed!), you don't need some silly marking on the ground to know it's best to get your bottom out of the way or be burned by a fireball. But if you don't see it, why should you get a free pass? It's your fault for not keeping an eye on your surroundings.

Haha, I wasn't the only one who thought of meteor example. And I completely forgot this from my argument: It does indeed dull situtational awarness, something that only experience and intelligence can bring to a table.

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No I have not played a game with telegraphs, I am just stating things out of my head. 

 

I'm going to cut the sarcasm here. First things first, I do not argue about matters I have no experience of, simply because I could not argue about them rationally, and when arguing I strive to be as rational as possible. The thing is, whilst the telegraps provide their own play of field, it drastically cuts the time required to learn the game. I am in complete disagreement that truly competitive games are easy to learn, as higher the skill-ceiling the more competitive the game can be (which directly translates to a higher cap between the elite and the regular players). For stagnation we can compare Dota 2 and Heroes of the Storm, the other one uses telegraphs, the other one does not. Now, everyone who's played Dota knows that the learning curve in the game does not stop even after 5 years of actively playing the game. But HotS has major issue, a beginner can avoid opponents spells just because he knows where they have been placed at. It also helps them to hit spells drastically easier because they will see exactly whether that cone-based AoE in front of them hits 1 or 3 targets because of the UI. Believe it or not range of spells and attacks is a massively long progress to master, and telegraphs decrease this long progress by far too great of a number for me to want them in a game. Example of two spells here:

Invoker's Sunstrike in Dota 2 and Tyrandes Stun in HotS, whilst Sunstrike is global, the spells behave in a similiar manner. In Dota 2, if you want to avoid Invoker's Sunstrike when you're against him, you'll need to know exactly if he has the spell equipped, and if he casts it. Its extremely easy to mask Sunstrikes cast animation to be that small twitch the character makes, and it requires keen eye to even know he has casted it. After that the trouble comes, where did he cast it? It takes some time to land, but you simply have to understand the situtation and what the invoker is going after if you want to avoid the sunstrike. Tyrandes spell in Hots has similiar mechanics, but it lands even faster. The problem is that you can see where the spell is going to land, and no one will ever purposefully walk into that spell (unless they are beginners). Compare how much more skill Invokers sunstrike takes to cast, land and evade in comparison to Tyrandes stunspell. Invoker has to first mask-cast the spell, he needs to figure out where his opponent will be in a few seconds, and as a person you need to know invokers intentions to evade the spell. As for Tyrande, you cast the spell in a situtation you know the opponent cannot evade it, because he will if he has even the slightest chance of doing so. In order to avoid the spell you simply step out of a circle.

 

 

Kiting someone at a melee range in MMORPG is extremely difficult, something not typically considered a valid strategy and not often discussed simply because it is insanely difficult to provide stable kiting on a melee character, but it is possible. The difficulty comes from knowing exactly when you are in the opponents range, so you can keep yourself away from the range of the person you are kiting at all times. With telegraphs, this previously not typically considered valid strategy due to its difficulty will most likely be a valid strategy, because you'll see from the UI exactly when you are not in his range, or when you are in the persons range. This would mean that whilst we might have a new strategy for players to play out, this strategy was previously for the elite players who knew exactly how to do the kiting process. Now its for every average joe out there to do the same. It also applies to avoidance in melee combat, and not kiting by itself. Dancing on your opponents range and making sure you land hits when the opponent doesn't is a basic skill in any MMORPG without tab-targetting. Telegraphs massively decrease the skill required to pull this off as well.

 

 

The telegraphs themselves do create a new playing field, but the issue here with me is that they decrease the skill required and time to master the game way too much for the pros to beat the massive con, and that is casualization of the games skill level and I can personally never advocate a low skill-ceiling.

Quite the wall of text, yet its worthy to read this. This basically explains the whole situation and answers all the questions in the thread.

 

I also totally agree with you, I hate when progression in the game is just your virtual character increasing "stats". A progress should be somethink happens to the player himself. Its not about the stat of dodging, its more about players capacity to dodge. And no telegraph means higher skill level, more things to progress yourself. Which is somethink developers must always aim to include in their games. This simple reason is a big factor why people love FPS games.

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I'm not a fan of the telegraph in wild star and after watching that before and after little clip of what crowfall looks with and crowfall looks without, I'm gonna say remove it all.

 

We have all heard that it's option to turn it off BUT if it's in the game and you wanna be the very best you kinda gotta use it. I'f nobody has telegraphs then nobody has that advantage and we can all play a game where it looks nice and an even playing field.

 

I'm forced to post this crack up of a video again just to inform everyone what is in store for you pro telegraphers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgVS9yNFGg 


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I'm not a fan of the telegraph in wild star and after watching that before and after little clip of what crowfall looks with and crowfall looks without, I'm gonna say remove it all.

 

We have all heard that it's option to turn it off BUT if it's in the game and you wanna be the very best you kinda gotta use it. I'f nobody has telegraphs then nobody has that advantage and we can all play a game where it looks nice and an even playing field.

 

I'm forced to post this crack up of a video again just to inform everyone what is in store for you pro telegraphers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgVS9yNFGg 

 

Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgVS9yNFGg PLEASE NO TELEGRAPHS.


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Based on the footage I've seen, them simply removing the Telegraphs looks to be a very simple and easy thing for the developers to implement.  Unlike say Wildstar where it's integrated directly into the combat animations and mechanics of the game itself and would be very difficult to remove (their Telegraphs are animated).  In this game it appears to be nothing more than a texture which is turned on or off when animations are performed around the base of the characters.

 

So asking the developers to remove it, shouldn't be any hair off their backs, just a couple of hours of work. :P

 

Of cause this is entirely an assumption on my part based entirely on observation.

 

I honestly think people went a little overboard and reacted rather harshly towards the devs, because it doesn't really look like the system in Wildstar at all, all it looks like is a visual representation of the damage arcs of attacks and the range of AoE attacks.  My issue is and the reason I'd like it removed is because it advertises to your opponent your damage range as well as the direction of your attacks, which means it comes down to a game of prediction and dodging.  Which is half the reason PvP in Wildstar sucks, the other half is because there is so many Telegraphs all over the place that it's like a disco inferno and a confusing multicolored mess that screws with your eyes.


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Based on the footage I've seen, them simply removing the Telegraphs looks to be a very simple and easy thing for the developers to implement.  Unlike say Wildstar where it's integrated directly into the combat animations and mechanics of the game itself and would be very difficult to remove (their Telegraphs are animated).  In this game it appears to be nothing more than a texture which is turned on or off when animations are performed around the base of the characters.

 

So asking the developers to remove it, shouldn't be any hair off their backs, just a couple of hours of work. :P

 

Of cause this is entirely an assumption on my part based entirely on observation.

 

I honestly think people went a little overboard and reacted rather harshly towards the devs, because it doesn't really look like the system in Wildstar at all, all it looks like is a visual representation of the damage arcs of attacks and the range of AoE attacks.  My issue is and the reason I'd like it removed is because it advertises to your opponent your damage range as well as the direction of your attacks, which means it comes down to a game of prediction and dodging.  Which is half the reason PvP in Wildstar sucks, the other half is because there is so many Telegraphs all over the place that it's like a disco inferno and a confusing multicolored mess that screws with your eyes.

Removing telegraphs is only a small part of the issue.  The attacks have to have full directionality.  That means I can swing an attack that may not hit directly in front of me, but instead a little higher and in front or whatever direction i aim, if attacks only ever go directly in front and im always standing erect and the only change is by turning or jumping occasionally that is very rigid combat.

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I thought the original concept was you could toggle telegraphs for your character only. Go back to that. I don't need, nor want to see everyone else's telegraph cluttering up my screen. I have no problems seeing my own, especially for long distance attacks if there will be no cross hair. If you can see your own, or if you want to turn them off... then there is no real advantage once you learn the game feel.

 

Get rid of them, or keep them personal.

 

That turns telegraphs into an advantage for players that use them which essentially turns into everyone turning them on and then scowling at their screen because they ruin the beautiful artwork.

 

Maybe they could disable them for certain campaigns for a more "hardcore" crowd.

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That turns telegraphs into an advantage for players that use them w

 

Whats wrong with that? I thought they whole point was people want to show how they are so skilled so they want the telegraph turned off.  If you can own people without them, there you go- you got something to brag about- mission accomplished.

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Whats wrong with that? I thought they whole point was people want to show how they are so skilled so they want the telegraph turned off.  If you can own people without them, there you go- you got something to brag about- mission accomplished.

 

how about toggle-able reticule... aim-bots...1-shot kill buttons

 

I mean people can turn them off and not use them and really show how good they are, right?

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That turns telegraphs into an advantage for players that use them which essentially turns into everyone turning them on and then scowling at their screen because they ruin the beautiful artwork.

 

Maybe they could disable them for certain campaigns for a more "hardcore" crowd.

I really find the advantage in seeing enemy telegraphs only. After knowing where skills will go, and having a cross hair, I won't need the telegraphs. Training wheels after you know how to ride your bike are a hindrance, not an advantage.

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What most are seeming to forget is that with a higher baseline skill required to play the more you limit the total size of the potential playerbase.  Having aids to help those that may need the help is not a bad thing especially if it is a feature that can be turned on and off.  The greater the granularity in settings for those options the better as well.


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Whats wrong with that? I thought they whole point was people want to show how they are so skilled so they want the telegraph turned off. If you can own people without them, there you go- you got something to brag about- mission accomplished.

The whole point is it looks horrible and cheap.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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how about toggle-able reticule... aim-bots...1-shot kill buttons

 

I mean people can turn them off and not use them and really show how good they are, right?

 

Those things are not part of the game, not sure what your point is. 

The whole point is it looks horrible and cheap.

 

Okay, so you disable it. What is the issue?

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Those things are not part of the game, not sure what your point is.

 

you really don't understand it, or you just can't find a counter argument?

 

I think it's the latter...

you're not the brightest crayon in the box, but you're not THAT stupid

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Already been answered Karnos, if your not willing to pay attention and think critically, why would I bother explaining?


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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