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kris

Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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You haven't made a single post in this thread explaining anything... you haven't even contributed to the discussion at hand.

 

I don't promote rewarding laziness, but in the same hand I don't promote insulting any player who doesn't agree with you.

 

there's a difference between having a different opinion and being wrong.

 

 

thinking that making telegraphs toggle-able would fix the issue, is just a wrong assumption.

nothing more, nothing less

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If it's an option BUT you wan't to be as good as everyone else then you gotta use it.

 

I'f you turn it off and you get none of that telegraph information while everyone else is, you're at a major disadvantage WHILE if they remove it for everyone then the game looks good and we are all on the same playing field.  ;)

 

It's funny how the argument shifts.

 

One minute, guy is saying the game is better without telegraphs, you need to use real skill, and this is better!

 

Next minute guy is saying he can't disable the telegraph graphics because it'll put him behind.

 

I thought if you had skill you could play fine without the telegraphs?  Are you saying you won't turn them off because you have no skill?

 

 

If it's easier to land an attack against a player who doesn't have the benefit of seeing your moves telegraphed, doesn't that mean that removing the telegraphs is making the game *easier*?  I thought your whole "skill" argument was in favor of making things harder so that skill matters more...

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It's funny how the argument shifts.

 

One minute, guy is saying the game is better without telegraphs, you need to use real skill, and this is better!

 

Next minute guy is saying he can't disable the telegraph graphics because it'll put him behind.

 

I thought if you had skill you could play fine without the telegraphs?  Are you saying you won't turn them off because you have no skill?

 

 

If it's easier to land an attack against a player who doesn't have the benefit of seeing your moves telegraphed, doesn't that mean that removing the telegraphs is making the game *easier*?  I thought your whole "skill" argument was in favor of making things harder so that skill matters more...

 

The argument has literally been the same the entire thread... The game is better without telegraphs because it requires you to learn the length of your swing, how fast it goes, etc. Putting in the option to disable telegraphs doesn't fix the issue because telegraphs make the game easier, and by disabling it for only yourself, you are putting yourself at a massive disadvantage. Yes, if you have skill you can play without them, but the whole point of removing them is to put everyone on an equal playing field with a very high skill ceiling.

 

Would you rather have a game with a low skill ceiling, or a game with a high skill ceiling? That's what this argument comes down to. It's the old classic hardcore PvP'ers who want a high skill ceiling vs the carebears want a low skill ceiling.

Edited by smilhollin

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I honestly prefer telegraphs in my RvR style games. GW2 did it right, the telegraphs were for ground targeted aoe . When  you are commanding your guild its VERY difficult to see everything around you, and telegraphs help with that greatly by allowing you to see "Shi, this area is full of enemy aoe let me change positions before we wipe to all the aoe." it really adds huge tactical value. Im sure no one wants overly animated attacks either, that wrecks our fps and telegraphs help mitigate it. Otherwise you got a bunch of minimalist animations that you can barely be seen or avoid.

 

Sure in small scale combat you can focus on the opponents animations, but i promise you, you aren't watching every animation for that 40-100+ man blob that just exited the keep and is now in your face. Without the telegraphs you will just be fighting the enemy and doing well, then all the sudden burst damage burst damage dead. You just got wrecked by a coordinated ground aoe attack and could not even see it coming. You literally wont see it coming.

 

TL;DR

 

Yes to ground aoe telegraphs similar to GW2, with option to turn off for those that would like to, ie immersion etc. When i command i want to use maneuvering superiority to mitigate enemy damage and to maximize ours. You dont know how many times i instantly rolled over guilds who refused to understand that those red circles around them are bad. And to not be able to see it, well it just removes a tactical element i feel.

Edited by krevra

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No it doesn't, the amount of ignorance in this thread is too damn high.

 

Telegraphs themselves are great, when done well, telegraphs coming from quality character animation and tasteful difficulty vs accessibility. Using episodes of Sailor Moon to tell players when an attack is coming a whole second or more before the attack comes off is just ugly and cheap. A lot of players are calling for no telegraphs because what was demonstrated looks so ugly, but the real desire is for tasteful telegraphs that don't cover the battle with reds and blues and ground telegraphs.

 

I mean, did you watch Sailor Moon with the rest of us smillholin?

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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No it doesn't, the amount of ignorance in this thread is too damn high.

 

Telegraphs themselves are great, when done well, telegraphs coming from quality character animation and tasteful difficulty vs accessibility. Using episodes of Sailor Moon to tell players when an attack is coming a whole second or more before the attack comes off is just ugly and cheap. A lot of players are calling for no telegraphs because what was demonstrated looks so ugly, but the real desire is for tasteful telegraphs that don't cover the battle with reds and blues and ground telegraphs.

 

I mean, did you watch Sailor Moon with the rest of us?

Ye telegraphs are great when done well, and as the devs said alot of what they showed is placeholder animations and such. Im pretty sure those telegraphs where placeholder graphics, they are waiting for the FX guy prob to come in and do them. Lol I dont want to see a long ass attack animation channel.

.

Sailor Moon attack animations xD


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Let's talk about what makes a good telegraph for a second. how should a warrior look when he enters battle? should he be sliding back and forth with no inertia (ding ding ding, key word used to describe the game but not displayed), or should he pause between hard direction changes and commit his movement into his attack?, Awe, you hate animation locking, it looks good and it players an essential function in strategic behaviors.

 

A warrior should look like he's ready to defend himself from attack, with his shield raised, and/or his sword pointing forward to obstruct attacks. When he goes in to strike, he moves forward, first telegraph, showing he is within striking distance, he chambers up for a blow, the attack telegraph, and than swings. Of course, the actions are exaggerated because they need to be readable by the opponent, who should be choosing to block, or dodge if the opponent chambers up for an unblockable attack, but the point is, telegraphs are Okay, they just have to be tasteful and done in the right amount, and right appearance.

 

Not only is an ugly ground telegraph or sailor moon crescent offensive to the eyes, it's useless as soon as a group of players mash together, you can see this with only 4 or 5 zombies mashing together, shades of blue overlapping into an unrecognizable mess. Multiply that by 50 and expand that by every kind of skill and aoe magic. Those crescents are freaking regular attacks... it's nasty.

 

I accept that it is promotion footage and they hadn't had much time to make it great, which is actually nice since there's so much room to improve, but everybody needs to be real about how unacceptable it is so something worthwhile is made.

 

P.S. WTF, how many moon attacks does she have?

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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They could do something like LoL where only you can see the skill's range before casting it, so you can aim AOE's and such better, or you can just flip it off in the options and quick cast everything and completely skip over the skill range part.

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Personal skill indicators is another subject beside telegraphs, but I'd rather have as few indicators as possible, judging distance and getting comfortable with the reach and path of your attacks is something that should come naturally over time.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Here's an idea:

 

Campaign World Rules. 

 

It has already been established that different realms will have different rules, and they'll be experimenting with it.

Why not have telegraphs yes/no be one of the rules as well?

 

Because really, there's much that can be said for and against telegraphs. Personally, I prefer the kind of telegraphs that don't involve neon floor lights but recognizable startup character attack animations. 

But, if done correctly, it does help with visual communication for beginner players. Making it more accessible. Because really, the more experienced people are going to figure out the hitboxes and tells of all the attacks eventually anyway. And learning to predict attacks is half the fun.

 

One important thing to make this really work however, is combat pacing. This is where Wildstar also went wrong, no matter if you use neon-graphical or animation telegraphs or none at all, if the pacing is too fast and people can spam skills one after another, it becomes too hectic and impossible to react to everything.

But the pacing is something that will have to be figured out through playtesting. Though I have to say I'm a fan of Dark Souls pacing...

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Here's an idea:

 

Campaign World Rules. 

 

It has already been established that different realms will have different rules, and they'll be experimenting with it.

Why not have telegraphs yes/no be one of the rules as well?

 

Because really, there's much that can be said for and against telegraphs. Personally, I prefer the kind of telegraphs that don't involve neon floor lights but recognizable startup character attack animations. 

But, if done correctly, it does help with visual communication for beginner players. Making it more accessible. Because really, the more experienced people are going to figure out the hitboxes and tells of all the attacks eventually anyway. And learning to predict attacks is half the fun.

 

One important thing to make this really work however, is combat pacing. This is where Wildstar also went wrong, no matter if you use neon-graphical or animation telegraphs or none at all, if the pacing is too fast and people can spam skills one after another, it becomes too hectic and impossible to react to everything.

But the pacing is something that will have to be figured out through playtesting. Though I have to say I'm a fan of Dark Souls pacing...

Because those rules are also connected to the lore. Telegraphes are not. Its a gameplay mechanism. Gameplay mechanisms dont really need rules. I just hope they completely remove telegraphes.

 

Accessible?yes. But accesibility is never a good thing. It kills player progression. The real fun is you becoming a better player, not your character having higher stats.

Edited by Navhkrin

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It's funny how the argument shifts.

 

One minute, guy is saying the game is better without telegraphs, you need to use real skill, and this is better!

 

Next minute guy is saying he can't disable the telegraph graphics because it'll put him behind.

 

I thought if you had skill you could play fine without the telegraphs?  Are you saying you won't turn them off because you have no skill?

 

 

If it's easier to land an attack against a player who doesn't have the benefit of seeing your moves telegraphed, doesn't that mean that removing the telegraphs is making the game *easier*?  I thought your whole "skill" argument was in favor of making things harder so that skill matters more...

I wonder how many times I need to smack posters like you with a hammer of reality

 

 

No I have not played a game with telegraphs, I am just stating things out of my head. 

 

I'm going to cut the sarcasm here. First things first, I do not argue about matters I have no experience of, simply because I could not argue about them rationally, and when arguing I strive to be as rational as possible. The thing is, whilst the telegraps provide their own play of field, it drastically cuts the time required to learn the game. I am in complete disagreement that truly competitive games are easy to learn, as higher the skill-ceiling the more competitive the game can be (which directly translates to a higher cap between the elite and the regular players). For stagnation we can compare Dota 2 and Heroes of the Storm, the other one uses telegraphs, the other one does not. Now, everyone who's played Dota knows that the learning curve in the game does not stop even after 5 years of actively playing the game. But HotS has major issue, a beginner can avoid opponents spells just because he knows where they have been placed at. It also helps them to hit spells drastically easier because they will see exactly whether that cone-based AoE in front of them hits 1 or 3 targets because of the UI. Believe it or not range of spells and attacks is a massively long progress to master, and telegraphs decrease this long progress by far too great of a number for me to want them in a game. Example of two spells here:

Invoker's Sunstrike in Dota 2 and Tyrandes Stun in HotS, whilst Sunstrike is global, the spells behave in a similiar manner. In Dota 2, if you want to avoid Invoker's Sunstrike when you're against him, you'll need to know exactly if he has the spell equipped, and if he casts it. Its extremely easy to mask Sunstrikes cast animation to be that small twitch the character makes, and it requires keen eye to even know he has casted it. After that the trouble comes, where did he cast it? It takes some time to land, but you simply have to understand the situtation and what the invoker is going after if you want to avoid the sunstrike. Tyrandes spell in Hots has similiar mechanics, but it lands even faster. The problem is that you can see where the spell is going to land, and no one will ever purposefully walk into that spell (unless they are beginners). Compare how much more skill Invokers sunstrike takes to cast, land and evade in comparison to Tyrandes stunspell. Invoker has to first mask-cast the spell, he needs to figure out where his opponent will be in a few seconds, and as a person you need to know invokers intentions to evade the spell. As for Tyrande, you cast the spell in a situtation you know the opponent cannot evade it, because he will if he has even the slightest chance of doing so. In order to avoid the spell you simply step out of a circle.

 

 

Kiting someone at a melee range in MMORPG is extremely difficult, something not typically considered a valid strategy and not often discussed simply because it is insanely difficult to provide stable kiting on a melee character, but it is possible. The difficulty comes from knowing exactly when you are in the opponents range, so you can keep yourself away from the range of the person you are kiting at all times. With telegraphs, this previously not typically considered valid strategy due to its difficulty will most likely be a valid strategy, because you'll see from the UI exactly when you are not in his range, or when you are in the persons range. This would mean that whilst we might have a new strategy for players to play out, this strategy was previously for the elite players who knew exactly how to do the kiting process. Now its for every average joe out there to do the same. It also applies to avoidance in melee combat, and not kiting by itself. Dancing on your opponents range and making sure you land hits when the opponent doesn't is a basic skill in any MMORPG without tab-targetting. Telegraphs massively decrease the skill required to pull this off as well.

 

 

The telegraphs themselves do create a new playing field, but the issue here with me is that they decrease the skill required and time to master the game way too much for the pros to beat the massive con, and that is casualization of the games skill level and I can personally never advocate a low skill-ceiling.

 

Now, to your stupid argument that makes absolutely no sense; Having the possibility of lower skill-ceiling isn't really an option, you'll have to play the game with telegraphs if they are available. Reason behind this is rather simple: They make the game a hell lot easier. Which is the reason so many are against them; They decrease the skill-ceiling and casualize the requirements of combat, most players don't want a walk through the park kind of a game.

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  It's the old classic hardcore PvP'ers who want a high skill ceiling vs the carebears want a low skill ceiling.

 

That is a fallacious argument. You could go to the WoW forums right now and see dozens of threads demanding certain aspects of the game be made harder- pure PvE aspects, mind you. There is zero connect between wanting hardcore PvP and wanting higher skill ceiling.

 

Besides, I still disagree with your basic assessment. PvP is a zero sum game. If something (telegraphs, for example), makes dodging attacks easier, it also makes it harder for you to land attacks.  Net change in skill required is 0- it just requires a bit MORE skill to land hits and a bit LESS skill to dodge hits.

 

"Skill ceiling" is one of the most commonly abused terms on these boards. You are not at the skill ceiling unless you are playing 100% perfect all the time, never making an error. Since no one on these boards has even played Crowfall, I can confidently state with 100% fact that nobody is at the skill ceiling, there is no crisis that needs to be averted by raising said skill ceiling.

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That is a fallacious argument. You could go to the WoW forums right now and see dozens of threads demanding certain aspects of the game be made harder- pure PvE aspects, mind you. There is zero connect between wanting hardcore PvP and wanting higher skill ceiling.

 

Besides, I still disagree with your basic assessment. PvP is a zero sum game. If something (telegraphs, for example), makes dodging attacks easier, it also makes it harder for you to land attacks.  Net change in skill required is 0- it just requires a bit MORE skill to land hits and a bit LESS skill to dodge hits.

 

"Skill ceiling" is one of the most commonly abused terms on these boards. You are not at the skill ceiling unless you are playing 100% perfect all the time, never making an error. Since no one on these boards has even played Crowfall, I can confidently state with 100% fact that nobody is at the skill ceiling, there is no crisis that needs to be averted by raising said skill ceiling.

You understand that without the telegraphs, dodging is harder, and landing hits is harder. With telegraphs; I don't need to know jackpoorly made socks about Confessors abilities, I'll just see red lines on the ground and attempt to evade those as I go. Now without telegraphs, as a beginner I have absolutely no idea how those confessor spells will land. As a Confessor, I've tested out the maximum range of my flame whips cone (just an example not an actual skill in the game) and I try to nuke my opponent with it, but I miss, I have miscalculated the whip. With cones, there's no room for error, no room for miscalculations, nothing. I could go on forever, everything combat related from basic knowledge of games mechanics, class mechanics, spell mechanics, ranges of spells, situtational awarness, reading your opponent, etc etc suffers from telegraphs. Whilst yes we have no clue of the skill-ceiling in CF, we can already argue that if we damage so many fundamental game aspects that are used to define player skill in MMORPGs, we are essentially dropping the said skill-ceiling way lower. And when we drop the skill-ceiling lower, the difference between someone who plays at close to the skill-ceiling and your below average joe is much smaller, that's the fundamental principle of skill-ceiling after all.

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Aiming features from the games over the last 5 years there was ESO, GW2, Tera and Wilstar. 

 

Wildstar was probably the least attractive, didn't even hit max level in the game, It was like playing a game frogger, just hop out of the way all all telegraphs rather then feeling like I was in a world. The abilities has no animation really required so it was just like a kid playing asteroids, spammed like crazy.

 

GW2 was actually pretty good for a tab target game. Yes it was tab target which this game won't be but at least attacks collided and attacked other enemies that got in the way.

 

ESO was aimed with a soft lock which was really nice for myself being an aussie because even with a higher ping my attack would still hit the enemy.

 

Tera is probably the best suited targeting for this game. No telegraphs and the player uses the center of his screen to aim so you can hit Y axis. When using a skill the player has to actually do a movement animation which makes it so combat is more controlled not like wildstar. Also In tera if you shoot an arrow is hits the person in contact while in wildstar you just spam damage boxes everywhere and everyone inside this box gets hurt...

 

I would do something similar to Tera with a few changes. Also I'm not saying I'm a fan of tera as a whole game, I'm just talking about the targeting they have. Enjoy my thoughts. :)


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 With telegraphs; I don't need to know jackpoorly made socks about Confessors abilities, I'll just see red lines on the ground and attempt to evade those as I go. 

 

And you just lost the fight.  You see, you evaded a low-damage attack and in the process you ran directly into position to get hit by the confessors powerful life-drain over time ability.  If you actually knew the abilities, you would have known the correct move is to let the low-damage attack hit you so you don't get forced into a position where you can't avoid the life-drain.

 

See where your argument breaks down?  Telegraphs give a warning that an attack is coming, but they still don't tell you what the correct move is. If you just brainlessly move away from every attack you see coming your way you will do much worse than a player who has the skill and knowledge to identify which attacks actually need to be avoided. Given what we know about the combat system- limited number of "dashes" to be used to avoid attacks- you would be playing very poorly if you simply wasted a dash on every single attack you see coming your way- the telegraphs don't give you a free win, you still need to figure out which attack is being used and figure out if it's worth expending a dash to avoid it.

 

>You understand that without the telegraphs, dodging is harder, and landing hits is harder.

 

I don't agree. I think landing hits would absolutely be easier without telegraphs. Why would it be harder to hit your enemy when he can't see your attack coming? That is a huge advantage, and it's even an incredibly unrealistic advantage- in real life, you can tell someone is looking in your direction, raising a sword, or holding up a gun. In a video game, graphic limitations make such things less obvious, for example you can't actually tell who an enemy character is looking at.

Edited by karnos

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This poll is absolutely biased.

 

I am for using telegraphs.

 

They provide vital information in an easy to notice format when the camera is way behind your character. Certainly, if your camera was right "where they are" you might be able to see opponent moves better, but that creates another problem: limited field of view.

 

Another game to look at, besides Wildstar and Guild Wars 2, is League of Legends. League of Legends uses telegraphs extensively. Every single ability that does AOE damage is telegraphed. Some are particle effects associated with weapon swings (Hecarim's Q, Katarina's new W), some create effects on the ground (Morgana's puddle, everything Ziggs does). Surely, most of these are dressed up in particle effects nicely, but under all the flashy effects, that's what they are: circles, lines, cones of Visually Bad Juju You Should Not Stand In. By comparison, Dota 2's telegraphs are more sublte and it's harder to tell what's happening because of it.

 

These things are important. Getting rid of them is a Bad Idea.

 

For crying out loud, people, read the kickstarter page. They even mention hiring a new FX artist for these things. You are looking at pre-alpha footage with temporary placeholder effects. Take a deep breath. Let them do their magic before you pass harsh judgment.


Greatswords for Frostweavers 2015! For great justice! And swords.

P.S. I like swords.

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And you just lost the fight.  You see, you evaded a low-damage attack and in the process you ran directly into position to get hit by the confessors powerful life-drain over time ability.  If you actually knew the abilities, you would have known the correct move is to let the low-damage attack hit you so you don't get forced into a position where you can't avoid the life-drain.

 

See where your argument breaks down?  Telegraphs give a warning that an attack is coming, but they still don't tell you what the correct move is. If you just brainlessly move away from every attack you see coming your way you will do much worse than a player who has the skill and knowledge to identify which attacks actually need to be avoided. Given what we know about the combat system- limited number of "dashes" to be used to avoid attacks- you would be playing very poorly if you simply wasted a dash on every single attack you see coming your way- the telegraphs don't give you a free win, you still need to figure out which attack is being used and figure out if it's worth expending a dash to avoid it.

 

>You understand that without the telegraphs, dodging is harder, and landing hits is harder.

 

I don't agree. I think landing hits would absolutely be easier without telegraphs. Why would it be harder to hit your enemy when he can't see your attack coming? That is a huge advantage, and it's even an incredibly unrealistic advantage- in real life, you can tell someone is looking in your direction, raising a sword, or holding up a gun. In a video game, graphic limitations make such things less obvious, for example you can't actually tell who an enemy character is looking at.

So you are basing your argument that players don't play on the optimal level? Always when considering game difficulty and balance eliminate the factor that someone is not playing on the highest possible level, otherwise the game will go to trash can in seconds. Your argument is based on that a player would spend a dash on a skill the player knows isn't critical to avoid. The optimal play would be attempt to simply juke the spell via running, but the player would immediately spend a dash node on that powerful life leech if that is the only option available, the difference of play here is that the player knows exactly where to avoid the spell via dash. If the confessor leads the ability to the right (as in the estimates that's where the player will go) the player doesn't even necessarily have to spend the dash, he can simply just turn to another direction ensuring the confessor will not land that life leech. But what if the player doesn't know where the life leech will hit? He will simply see the animation that the life leech is coming, and perhaps he spends the dash, surprisingly, confessor estimated his move and lands a perfect life leech whilst the player just spent a dash point. The whole point here is that the game becomes less forgiving, as you do not know exactly what your opponent is thinking, and that's the difference here. The game no longer provides  complete visual clues of what your opponent is about to perform. 

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So you are basing your argument that players don't play on the optimal level? Always when considering game difficulty and balance eliminate the factor that someone is not playing on the highest possible level, otherwise the game will go to trash can in seconds. Your argument is based on that a player would spend a dash on a skill the player knows isn't critical to avoid. The optimal play would be attempt to simply juke the spell via running, but the player would immediately spend a dash node on that powerful life leech if that is the only option available, the difference of play here is that the player knows exactly where to avoid the spell via dash. If the confessor leads the ability to the right (as in the estimates that's where the player will go) the player doesn't even necessarily have to spend the dash, he can simply just turn to another direction ensuring the confessor will not land that life leech. But what if the player doesn't know where the life leech will hit? He will simply see the animation that the life leech is coming, and perhaps he spends the dash, surprisingly, confessor estimated his move and lands a perfect life leech whilst the player just spent a dash point. The whole point here is that the game becomes less forgiving, as you do not know exactly what your opponent is thinking, and that's the difference here. The game no longer provides  complete visual clues of what your opponent is about to perform. 

No, game will always have visial clues. But it will be much harder to detect them and move corresponding to them. Just like real life. They will add whole new level of player skill progession.

 

Defending telegraphs is like defending 3d aim lines on fps games.

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