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kris

Telegraphs Need To Go (New Gameplay Trailer)

  

498 members have voted

  1. 1. Telegraphs

    • NO, I don't want telegraphs
      308
    • YES, I want telegraphs
      65
    • I don't mind some telegraphs, but tone down the texture
      125


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So you are basing your argument that players don't play on the optimal level?

 

Yes. Nobody plays at the optimal level, nobody.  Even dendi misses pudge hooks, a winning pro team might lose an aegis because of slow reactions, and pro level players still get ganked when they wander too far from their team. If the best of the best make mistakes while playing for millions of dollars worth of prize money, i'm pretty sure it's safe to say neither you nor I nor any other person on these forums can play 100% optimal all the time.

Edited by karnos

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Yes. Nobody plays at the optimal level, nobody.  Even dendi misses pudge hooks, a winning pro team might lose an aegis because of slow reactions, and pro level players still get ganked when they wander too far from their team. If the best of the best make mistakes while playing for millions of dollars worth of prize money, i'm pretty sure it's safe to say neither you nor I nor any other person on these forums can play 100% optimal all the time.

Still, all gameplay has to be considered upon that somebody plays on the optimal level. Much like Dota 2 is balanced, if you want to use that as a reference. The point isn't that somebody is capable of playing on such level, but whenever there is a chance that somebody played on the optimal level for a certain period of window, you'll have to take that into account. So games have to be built and balanced on the factor of optimal level, which is theoretical, but still.

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Still, all gameplay has to be considered upon that somebody plays on the optimal level. Much like Dota 2 is balanced, if you want to use that as a reference. The point isn't that somebody is capable of playing on such level, but whenever there is a chance that somebody played on the optimal level for a certain period of window, you'll have to take that into account. So games have to be built and balanced on the factor of optimal level, which is theoretical, but still.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. If you play optimally, you will win the fight unless you are outmatched or hard-countered, this is with or without telegraphs.  What other outcome could you possibly expect?

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I haven't read the full thread, but i wanna say that i agree that the telegraphs needs to go away.

 

At least, don't show them by default. Only show them when you select players, npc's, objects, etc.. Or in case of some of the spells like channeling AoE attacks so you have a visual of what your spell is doing.

 

I think World of Warcraft is a good example of how this is done right.

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I don't understand where this whole argument of telegraphs lowers the skill ceiling is coming from. At the top lvl of play (lets assume the top 20% of players) everyone knows the tells and area of an attack already so the telegraph has no effect there. With or without telegraphs the style of combat will not change. people will try to bait out dodged to that they can land their better skills (this applies to the meteor example from a few pages ago) so once again telegraphs have no effect there. The only effect this will have on the skill ceiling is punishing misses attacks (Missed as in you aimed to hit with the edge and over estimated your reach)

 

If a person can just go HUURR and avoid a skill it's because either 1) the skill has far tool long of a tell before landing. OR 2) you misplayed the ability.

 

Telegraphs do nothing to lower the skill ceiling but they lower the skill floor immensely (This is a good thing for a game to prosper in the long run)

You want a niche game to have a lower skill floor so that when a new player comes in they understand what is hitting them and why they're losing.

Edited by eisenheim

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I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. If you play optimally, you will win the fight unless you are outmatched or hard-countered, this is with or without telegraphs.  What other outcome could you possibly expect?

Let's take an example: Unreal Tournament 2004's anti-cheat system, which was crap. No, that's an insult to crap, its the crap that the crap craps. Developers made the anti-cheat so horrible it was replaced by a 3rd party anti-cheat, and typically quarter-finals and above were spectated by 1-2 admins for a cup. Why? Because the standard anti-cheat assumed the maximum possible speed where player moves is x, but unfortunately they did not calculate that most of the top players moved way faster than that, because they did not believe anyone could run at the optimal speed the game engine allows. Well, people did that, not through whole 15 minutes of a game however, but periodically they managed to do so. What if the anti-cheat engine was actually optimized around optimal speed the players can move in the game? It wouldn't have checked false positives then, as people cannot exceed the maximum speed the game engine allows.

 

For reasons like this developers have to assume something is played on optimal level if the situtation requires it, that's the foundation of balance and games mechanics. If its theoretically possible for someone to pull something off, at some point in the game's lifecycle it will happen, no matter how rare the occurrence. It has nothing to do with telegraphs, I just explained that no argument can be made towards removal or keepsaking of telegraphs because of mistakes a player could make.

Edited by nehemia

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I don't understand where this whole argument of telegraphs lowers the skill ceiling is coming from. At the top lvl of play (lets assume the top 20% of players) everyone knows the tells and area of an attack already so the telegraph has no effect there. With or without telegraphs the style of combat will not change. people will try to bait out dodged to that they can land their better skills (this applies to the meteor example from a few pages ago) so once again telegraphs have no effect there. The only effect this will have on the skill ceiling is punishing misses attacks (Missed as in you aimed to hit with the edge and over estimated your reach)

 

If a person can just go HUURR and avoid a skill it's because either 1) the skill has far tool long of a tell before landing. OR 2) you misplayed the ability.

 

Telegraphs do nothing to lower the skill ceiling but they lower the skill floor immensely (This is a good thing for a game to prosper in the long run)

You want a niche game to have a lower skill floor so that when a new player comes in they understand what is hitting them and why they're losing.

If the top level of play is 20% of the playerbase, the skill-ceiling is way too low. And the changes to combat behavior have been explained multiple times in the 9 pages of this thread, you have just chosen to ignore them.

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If the top level of play is 20% of the playerbase, the skill-ceiling is way too low. And the changes to combat behavior have been explained multiple times in the 9 pages of this thread, you have just chosen to ignore them.

The percentage is arbitrary (I could have used 10% or 5% for an example, nothing would have changed). At no point have I ignored anything posted before, I brought up my points while you haven't refuted any of mines other that the percentage.

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The percentage is arbitrary (I could have used 10% or 5% for an example, nothing would have changed). At no point have I ignored anything posted before, I brought up my points while you haven't refuted any of mines other that the percentage.

I apologize for not understanding you're the entitled one who I should have directly quoted instead of providing the same context of arguments to other people I have quoted or the posts that were not quoted at all. I don't see a reason to repeat myself to every poster in this thread just because they themselves do not read the thread and argue the same issues all over again. I have read your posts and provided the arguments approximately 5 pages prior to yours, and I'm going to state this: Player behavior is different if telegraphs are in, the focus is on different things and overall telegraphs require less skill, for reasons I have previously explained in this thread. I have refuted yours, you have just chosen not to read them, or comprehend them, either one.

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I apologize for not understanding you're the entitled one who I should have directly quoted instead of providing the same context of arguments to other people I have quoted or the posts that were not quoted at all. I don't see a reason to repeat myself to every poster in this thread just because they themselves do not read the thread and argue the same issues all over again. I have read your posts and provided the arguments approximately 5 pages prior to yours, and I'm going to state this: Player behavior is different if telegraphs are in, the focus is on different things and overall telegraphs require less skill, for reasons I have previously explained in this thread. I have refuted yours, you have just chosen not to read them, or comprehend them, either one.

 

Don't resort to ad hominem, that doesn't help your case.

 

Player behavior changes from telegraphs doesn't change the skill ceiling. Yes at a lower level of play the telegraphs will make the game much easier to play (A point I believe is good for a game to maintain population) but at higher levels there are no changes in play style other than not trying to throw a random skill and hope it hits (the meteor argument) Yes, some particular methods of attack may not work but in the same hand you gain other methods.

 

I've read your post and it is well thought out but i simply don't agree that it makes the skill ceiling lower.

 

Take league for an example. At lower tier a soraka player can throw a starfall and miss every shot because a person sees the tell and then leaves the area before it can land. As the rank of the soraka player goes up the player will learn to predict movement and land starfall more often and even get to the point where the telegraph of the skill can be used to make an opponent move in the direction you desire to avoid damage. Lux and nunu are other good examples. Lux's ultimate has a huge tell and telegraph for where it's going to hit, it rewards the player for thoughtful placement of a high damage skill as up posed to throwing it in as part of your rotation. Nunu's ultimate forces your opponent to choose at that moment if they want to take you out, leave, or fight on because the telegraph forces you to either place it right or not at all.

 

These all apply in a 3rd person context to with smite (scilla ult, chaac rain, osiris stun) I don't see the lowering of a skill ceiling, I see the rewarding of thoughtful skill placement.

 

We do lose melee kiting, I won't argue that because it's right.

Edited by eisenheim

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Let's take an example: Unreal Tournament 2004's anti-cheat system, which was crap. No, that's an insult to crap, its the crap that the crap craps. Developers made the anti-cheat so horrible it was replaced by a 3rd party anti-cheat, and typically quarter-finals and above were spectated by 1-2 admins for a cup. Why? Because the standard anti-cheat assumed the maximum possible speed where player moves is x, but unfortunately they did not calculate that most of the top players moved way faster than that, because they did not believe anyone could run at the optimal speed the game engine allows. Well, people did that, not through whole 15 minutes of a game however, but periodically they managed to do so. What if the anti-cheat engine was actually optimized around optimal speed the players can move in the game? It wouldn't have checked false positives then, as people cannot exceed the maximum speed the game engine allows.

 

For reasons like this developers have to assume something is played on optimal level if the situtation requires it, that's the foundation of balance and games mechanics. If its theoretically possible for someone to pull something off, at some point in the game's lifecycle it will happen, no matter how rare the occurrence. It has nothing to do with telegraphs, I just explained that no argument can be made towards removal or keepsaking of telegraphs because of mistakes a player could make.

 

 

Look at what I wrote. "If you play optimally, you will win the fight unless you are outmatched or hard-countered, this is with or without telegraphs.  What other outcome could you possibly expect?"

 

I understand the concept that maybe a player will play optimally in a short term time period, but what difference does it make?  If you are playing optimally, telegraphs haze ZERO impact- you are dodging any attack you need to doge, with or without telegraphs.

 

They only affect play at lower skill levels, where the help of the telegraph might allow you to dodge something you wouldn't have noticed coming without it.

Edited by karnos

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Let me say this in a way that is easy for you to understand. Telegraphs = bad. Why? Because they lower the skill ceiling (the skill ceiling being the impossible to reach 100% best playing). Yes, no one can actually play exactly perfect, but the best players are very very close. With telegraphs, you are making it easier for the less skilled players to be playing at the same level as the truly skilled players, since the ceiling is so low. Without telegraphs, the skilled players will still be playing close to the ceiling, while the less skilled players won't be, because they don't have visual cues that lower the ceiling.

 

Do you understand?

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Let me say this in a way that is easy for you to understand. Telegraphs = bad. Why? Because they lower the skill ceiling (the skill ceiling being the impossible to reach 100% best playing). Yes, no one can actually play exactly perfect, but the best players are very very close. With telegraphs, you are making it easier for the less skilled players to be playing at the same level as the truly skilled players, since the ceiling is so low. Without telegraphs, the skilled players will still be playing close to the ceiling, while the less skilled players won't be, because they don't have visual cues that lower the ceiling.

 

Do you understand?

 

Basically, it makes it easier for players to git gud. That's not inherently bad. Sorry, that's not entirely accurate.

It means there's less gud to be git, which is bad.

 

I maintain my earlier stance, that telegraphed attacks should be reserved for giant, battle-affecting things. Like a Catapult painting a target on your army, which forces you to scatter.

 

In the trailer form, where every attack or every other attack or every vanilla player AoE is telegraphed, all that leads to is visual pollution. If anything, the player's character's AoEs should be telegraphed, the player party's buffs should be telegraphed, and that's all.

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

Goodposting 101: How to Keep the Forums Clean

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I think that very short duration telegraphs that equate to quick-time events for getting out of the way are fine - and would be fun imo.  But the level of telegraphing shown in the videos so far is way too much, and makes things far too easy.

 

3 options for telegraphs:

  • Available as an option for your own characters abilities - you can see your own, no one else can see them
  • Only able to see enemy telegraphs for .5 - 1 second before the attack lands
  • No telegraphs whatsoever

Personally, I like option 2 best.  I'm cool with 3 and 1.  I would prefer to not have everything easily telegraphed for all to see, however.

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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The biggest problem I have is readability and information overload. If you've got 20v20 going on that means the ground is going to be covered in some circle or cone or other. The information they provide ("dont stand here") is irrelevant because you're going to get hit by something no matter what; All it is is visual pollution.

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

Goodposting 101: How to Keep the Forums Clean

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I vote no telegraphs, or as a compromise you only see telegraphs for your own abilities (and there must be an option to turn this off). I played MOBA's for years and early ones like DOTA (original WC3 map mod) and Heroes of Newerth (in its early days - some time ago it changed) did not show telegraphs for your abilities or enemy abilities and I don't feel like the games suffered for it. I just don't feel like its a necessary component for a fun or challenging combat system, and it makes the game really ugly when theres 50 players spamming colored lines and shapes all over the play area non-stop.

Edited by syiss

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With telegraphs, you are making it easier for the less skilled players to be playing at the same level as the truly skilled players, since the ceiling is so low. 

 

Counterpoint: LoL has telegraphs.

 

I don't see the pro scene being invaded by newbies. In fact I know a lot of newbies who can't even climb out of bronze league.

 

You haven't played Crowfall- none of us have.  I think it's absurd to make the argument that nothing in it is possibly going to test a players skill, unless telegraphing is removed.  Yet that seems to be just the argument you are making.

 

(I'm also not conceding the point- telegraphs do NOT lower the skill ceiling, if anything they raise the skill floor, which is not a bad thing if you would like to have populated servers and enough players in the game to justify regular update patches.)

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Counterpoint: LoL has telegraphs.

 

I don't see the pro scene being invaded by newbies. In fact I know a lot of newbies who can't even climb out of bronze league.

 

You haven't played Crowfall- none of us have.  I think it's absurd to make the argument that nothing in it is possibly going to test a players skill, unless telegraphing is removed.  Yet that seems to be just the argument you are making.

 

(I'm also not conceding the point- telegraphs do NOT lower the skill ceiling, if anything they raise the skill floor, which is not a bad thing if you would like to have populated servers and enough players in the game to justify regular update patches.)

 

you and a lot of people might disagree here, but let me tell you this:

 

LoL has an incredibly low mechanical skill ceiling.

Some champs are so incredibly easy to play, with absolutely no way to up their potential with player skill.

 

The reason why so many people can't climb out of bronze is because the game has so many players, that it's inevitable to pick up some drooling inbred monkeys in front of their keyboards.

 

 

The big difference in LoL comes from the teamplay. in that department the skill cieling is incredibly high.

 

 

The reaosn you see so many pro-players show stuff you personally cannot do on a mechanical level is that they put an insane amount of time into the game and have way more practice with certain champions.

 

Now imagine the game actually had a sandbox mode and you could, for example, duel for 2h with a Zed. Your efficiciency with that champ will go up massively.

In actual matches you have barely any possibility to outplay someone else and practice the scenario. you get maybe 3-5 chances per game. Now do the math how long it would take you to reach that level compared to practicing in a sandbox environment.

 

And now here comes the kicker: even if a pro keeps on practicing in the sandbox, his skill will barely increase, because he already reached the extremely low skill ceiling.

 

 

Feel free to disagree, but bringing up LoL in regards to personal mechanical skill is just laughable, sorry buddy.

All you did is enforce our argument: telegraphs for a low skill ceiling.

Edited by freeze

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