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Forecore

OCD : Reduce quantity of trash items

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The game is designed around many easy come and easy go drops especially from low rank mobs. 

I unfortunately have OCD and hording tendencies where I have to loot and collect everything.  Given the large number of mobs we hunt, looting all these items is a pain. 

Reducing number of items but increasing value of the reduced quantity of trash items will be a welcome change.  

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21 minutes ago, Forecore said:

The game is designed around many easy come and easy go drops especially from low rank mobs. 

I unfortunately have OCD and hording tendencies where I have to loot and collect everything.  Given the large number of mobs we hunt, looting all these items is a pain. 

Reducing number of items but increasing value of the reduced quantity of trash items will be a welcome change.  

sell or sacrifice them

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... or accept that some things are trash that doesn't need to be collected.

If CF's trash drops have your OCD triggered, I can only imagine what a Diablo speed run would do to you.

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One feature that would be interesting is to have a button in the character's inventory that allows "send craft materials from our inventary to the chest".  That makes fieldwork much easier.
I met this feature in Guildwars2 and we found it great.


____ Xuten Red Reapers ______________________________

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8 hours ago, Xuten said:

One feature that would be interesting is to have a button in the character's inventory that allows "send craft materials from our inventary to the chest".  That makes fieldwork much easier.
I met this feature in Guildwars2 and we found it great.

Agree in addition to that my guess is 50% of the time players will be engaged in farming and looting. An auto loot or loot all bind will save players from Carpal tunnel syndrome. 

Edited by Forecore

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Would like to see some "basic" QOL features like only seeing/looting particular qualities be it off the ground or in a window, options to organize inventory, and loot all.

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:44 AM, Xuten said:

One feature that would be interesting is to have a button in the character's inventory that allows "send craft materials from our inventary to the chest".  That makes fieldwork much easier.
I met this feature in Guildwars2 and we found it great.

This is a terrible idea for a game in which the contents of your inventory are intended to be looted by people that kill you. It works in GW2 because there is no player looting, and thus no real point in forcing players to return to a bank, since no matter what happens to them they'll keep the items.

Opening your bank in the middle of a field is not how the final game works. You are intended to have to return to a bank location to bank, and other people are intended to have the ability to stop you, murder you, and take everything in your pockets for themselves. GW2 style instant banking would remove a core part of the risk/reward paradigm of harvesting.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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4 minutes ago, APE said:

What's the risk/reward of ganking harvesters or not being a pinata?

Risk that you don‘t find anyone, or don’t kill anyone or get killed with your haul and lose it, while you could spend that time harvesting yourself or escorting caravans and doing more income.

In other words risk of wasting your time.

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14 minutes ago, ComradeAma said:

Risk that you don‘t find anyone, or don’t kill anyone or get killed with your haul and lose it, while you could spend that time harvesting yourself or escorting caravans and doing more income.

In other words risk of wasting your time.

Someone harvesting is risking not only their loot but the time it took them to gather it. A harvesters/caravan transporter gets nothing in return for defending their goods but a waste of their time doing so instead of their focus. High risk and reward for harvesting and no reward for defending.

A crafter risks their time, harvester time, and the value of the materials they are using to craft. Depending on the RNG gods, could be high risk and reward.

PVPers risk wasting time although the act of PVPing or the hunt might be reward in of itself and not a waste win or lose. They have the same risk of time wasting as anyone else doing anything and dying. They have the potential to collect big off the backs of others putting in the time with other roles. Seems like little risk with high reward.

Doesn't seem very even IMO. Full loot would fix that of course but...

 

Edited by APE

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Please don't take this as condescending APE. I don't understand the difference between pvp'er and non-pvp'ers. This is a full on pvp game. It's whole purpose is to have players fighting players. 

So in this case, someone gathering resources is participating in pvp by being in the PvP world. If they're afraid of getting ganked, then they need to have bodyguards or be prepared to fight for the resources they carry. 

If a guild's resource harvesters are getting ganked, the guild better damn we'll get out there and protect their harvesters or they'll lose campaigns. 

It seems like you are saying that people who gather resources somehow risk more than the people they're gathering the resources for. 

Again, not trying to be condescending. I am curious. Do you think Crowfall needs to do something to give gatherers an advantage so that they don't have to participate in the PvP? 

 

**Edit: I didn't think that's the kind of audience Artcraft is aiming for but if those people are here, I guess we ought to encourage them to continue playing :)

 

Edited by SirEmery
Clarification

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22 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

This is a terrible idea for a game in which the contents of your inventory are intended to be looted by people that kill you. It works in GW2 because there is no player looting, and thus no real point in forcing players to return to a bank, since no matter what happens to them they'll keep the items.

Opening your bank in the middle of a field is not how the final game works. You are intended to have to return to a bank location to bank, and other people are intended to have the ability to stop you, murder you, and take everything in your pockets for themselves. GW2 style instant banking would remove a core part of the risk/reward paradigm of harvesting.

I like plan in Crowfall more, I hadn't thought about it that way. ;)


____ Xuten Red Reapers ______________________________

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15 hours ago, SirEmery said:

Please don't take this as condescending APE. I don't understand the difference between pvp'er and non-pvp'ers. This is a full on pvp game. It's whole purpose is to have players fighting players.

A "full on PVP game" to me is a MOBA, FPS, RTS, MMO Arena with PVP from the start to the end of a match. Even if there are elements of PVE (MOBA/RTS) involved, it is so fast paced that it doesn't really factor in, nor can you go do it off in a remote area of the world.

MMOs have a lot of non-PVP time. Even someone looking for PVP has to seek it out. IMO, you aren't PVPing simply by logging in and stepping foot into the game world. Players are however agreeing to be part of an experience with the chance of PVP at any moment. Doesn't mean they are specifically seeking it out based on the variety of activities that one can focus on.

Someone trying to level by grinding mobs might not specifically be crossing their fingers a group of players run in and gank them. They know it could happen, but ideally it doesn't if the outcome is entirely one sided which typically it is.

15 hours ago, SirEmery said:

So in this case, someone gathering resources is participating in pvp by being in the PvP world. If they're afraid of getting ganked, then they need to have bodyguards or be prepared to fight for the resources they carry.

I don't believe someone simply existing in the game is participating in PVP but they are agreeing to it happening as part of the experience. I agree that people should bring backup if they can't help themselves for whatever reason and that is part of the social and multi-role design.

15 hours ago, SirEmery said:

It seems like you are saying that people who gather resources somehow risk more than the people they're gathering the resources for.

Yes exactly. As I asked, what is a wolf risking going after sheep?

If they happen to come across someone gathering, they attack, and either the harvester or their support defend themselves well and defeat the aggressor, what did the aggressor lose or risk? IMO, time loss is not as significant to losing tons of loot plus time.

15 hours ago, SirEmery said:

Again, not trying to be condescending. I am curious. Do you think Crowfall needs to do something to give gatherers an advantage so that they don't have to participate in the PvP?

Absolutely not. As above, someone that logs in and chooses to play these games is agreeing to the experience within the rules provided. What I'd like is some sort of system that rewards/punishes PVP performance so that no matter what role someone is playing, there is some risk/reward involved.

Something like full loot, the initiator of conflict takes more gear decay if they lose, they could potentially drop a piece of gear, or some sort of negative punishment. If that is to harsh for the "full on PVP" people, then maybe a reward token (player skull) provides a buff/benefit of the players choosing. So a harvester that defeats an attacker could sacrifice the skull to get a harvesting boost or whatever they want. Not exactly a risk for the attacker, but they non-directly would be helping their victims if they lose to them.

Not talking karma system or anything like that.

15 hours ago, SirEmery said:

**Edit: I didn't think that's the kind of audience Artcraft is aiming for but if those people are here, I guess we ought to encourage them to continue playing :)

An issue with these types of games has been the imbalance in sheep/wolf dynamics. There needs to be players willing to put in the time/effort doing PVE, gathering, crafting, building, etc and not just stabbing each other in the face. Usually there is a heavier risk involved for these roles vs those that just want to run around ganking, harrassing, fighting anything that appears on their screen.

I'm a PVPer. I rarely enjoy doing non-combat activities unless they directly relate to PVP encounters (prepping for siege, scouting). I also don't find a lot of enjoyment or challenge in ganking people fighting mobs, harvesting, leveling, half my level/gear, etc.

I want a challenge and risk to get some thrill out of the experience. Being able to attack anyone without any fear of losing anything besides maybe a few minutes of my time is not putting me on the edge of my seat.

If I go the usual path of least resistance and attack a lonely harvester or whatever, I want to know that XYZ could happen to me if I fail. Not just hit respawn and have to fly my happy little crow butt somewhere.

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On 2/28/2020 at 1:31 AM, APE said:

Someone harvesting is risking not only their loot but the time it took them to gather it.

The harvester risks gear depreciation, consumables they didn't intend to bring home, and time to go to a place where they feel somewhat secure to get a known (or estimated) return on their time.

The ganker risks gear depreciation and time to go to a place where they are not secure, to get an unknown return and quite possibly nothing.

As a harvester/gatherer going back decades across many games, I have to say that the loot you gather is not *your loot* until you get it to a place where you can bank it; it's just loot.

Harvesters in CF don't need to nerf their ability to PvP in order to max their harvest potential; I have the same build options available to me that my wouldbe ganker has. If I go out into the wilds, become complacent, let a fat pile of loot accumulate, and then loose a fight, I didn't deserve that loot. I should have had a partner. I should have banked more often. I should have used a better combat build, or an evade and escape build. My guild needs to run cover patrols, or post lookouts, or I should have been paying attention to comms.

As a gatherer in a PvP game, if I'm not at some risk of loss, either my guild and I are doing everything right, or something is very wrong with the game.

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2 hours ago, VaMei said:

The harvester risks gear depreciation, consumables they didn't intend to bring home, and time to go to a place where they feel somewhat secure to get a known (or estimated) return on their time.

The ganker risks gear depreciation and time to go to a place where they are not secure, to get an unknown return and quite possibly nothing.

Again, I do not see these as equal risk vs reward.

Everyone risks gear depreciation and time, those are a wash.

Harvesters, caravan runners (assumed), and other such roles also risk loot which takes even more time/effort to obtain and potentially consumables. If they die they lose all that.

If a Wolf dies they lose nothing extra. That is my issue. Wolves shouldn't be excempt from penalty for not playing well.

Sheep - Big gain, Big loss

Wolf - Big gain, No loss

2 hours ago, VaMei said:

As a harvester/gatherer going back decades across many games, I have to say that the loot you gather is not *your loot* until you get it to a place where you can bank it; it's just loot.

As a gatherer in a PvP game, if I'm not at some risk of loss, either my guild and I are doing everything right, or something is very wrong with the game.

I'm entirely find with this and am not looking for anything more. I want risk v reward and harvesters have it.

As a PVPer, I want more risk.

If I die to a harvester, their friends, or just some random other PVPer in the world, I want to risk something more then a few minutes of time and my gear taking a slight hit.

2 hours ago, VaMei said:

Harvesters in CF don't need to nerf their ability to PvP in order to max their harvest potential; I have the same build options available to me that my wouldbe ganker has.

I'm not sure how this is so when choosing specific races/classes/gear/disciplines and passive training has little to strong influence on non-combat roles. You might not be a total gimp, but if there was no difference then ACE has wasted a lot of time on pseudo specialization value.

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56 minutes ago, APE said:

Sheep - Big gain, Big loss

Wolf - Big gain, No loss

This is where we see it differently. The sheep doesn't gain until he banks loot, neither does the wolf. What you took with you and did not bring back is the only loss, beyond time and depreciation. Anything you found out there and lost out there was never truely yours and can't be counted as a loss.

Do you think the wolves aren't hunted and don't face risks of their own? 

56 minutes ago, APE said:

I'm not sure how this is so when choosing specific races/classes/gear/disciplines and passive training has little to strong influence on non-combat roles.

The only races without good combat builds are half elf and stoneborn, but they're also not great for harvesting. Class makes some difference on harvest stats, but there are few classes that force you to be bad at PvP. Fae Assassin may be a terrible choice for stone harvesting, but he's great at skinning. Otoh, Centaur Alpha makes a great quarryman.

Putting harvest seals on your gear does not prevent you from choosing from every possible combat stat on that gear, they are an optional add-on to that PvP gear. Your jewelry is the only place where you choose PvP vs harvest, and even harvest jewelry has PvP stats on it. Assuming you have decent harvest gear and the basic skills, the rings are of little help if your guild has a competent toolmaker. A Node Damage neck is the only forced choice for min/maxing.

Short of choosing reaper as a minor, which is useless if you actually take a harvest disc on your harvester, there are no harvest disc choices that impact your PvP choices. The majors have been separate slots from the exploration discs for a long time now.

As for passives, you must choose two tracks. If you're a harvester, you'll choose Exploration and... Combat. If you're a ganker you'll take Combat and... Exploration.

Edited by VaMei

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If you kill a farmer and take his loot you still have to bring it home. If someone kills you along the way you lost just as much as the farmer did.


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3 hours ago, VaMei said:

This is where we see it differently. The sheep doesn't gain until he banks loot, neither does the wolf. What you took with you and did not bring back is the only loss, beyond time and depreciation. Anything you found out there and lost out there was never truely yours and can't be counted as a loss.

I get it but doesn't seem like equal risk vs reward to me.

Quote

Do you think the wolves aren't hunted and don't face risks of their own?

Which are what that everyone else doesn't also share plus more?

As someone that likes to PVP, I can go out and attack and harass without any real immediate fear of loss. If I lose, I re spawn and do it again. If someone that has been harvesting for 10 min or an hours loses, they are out all the time/effort it took them to obtain whatever along with the potential those goods would of provided. 

If I get attacked while hunting others with empty bags, I don't have anything to lose that I was trying to get back to bank or anything else that factors into risk v reward. Heck I could loot and delete everything from my victims if I'm not trying to win the campaign or help a guild. It isn't unheard of for groups of people to focus solely on screwing with others and not playing to the game main focus.

Quote

The only races without good combat builds are half elf and stoneborn, but they're also not great for harvesting. Class makes some difference on harvest stats, but there are few classes that force you to be bad at PvP. Fae Assassin may be a terrible choice for stone harvesting, but he's great at skinning. Otoh, Centaur Alpha makes a great quarryman.

Putting harvest seals on your gear does not prevent you from choosing from every possible combat stat on that gear, they are an optional add-on to that PvP gear. Your jewelry is the only place where you choose PvP vs harvest, and even harvest jewelry has PvP stats on it. Assuming you have decent harvest gear and the basic skills, the rings are of little help if your guild has a competent toolmaker. A Node Damage neck is the only forced choice for min/maxing.

Short of choosing reaper as a minor, which is useless if you actually take a harvest disc on your harvester, there are no harvest disc choices that impact your PvP choices. The majors have been separate slots from the exploration discs for a long time now.

It sounds like this might be changing with the update or in the future. They mentioned that being able to get all the good stats isn't intended. Sort of like people should actually have to make meaningful choices and specializing should have value. Will have to see how it turns out though. If it doesn't go that route, it will be a shame and continues to go against several things they said early on.

Quote

As for passives, you must choose two tracks. If you're a harvester, you'll choose Exploration and... Combat. If you're a ganker you'll take Combat and... Exploration.

I didn't realize those were the only option. ACE should probably list that some where. Guess we won't see any Craft+Exploration/Combat combos...

Edited by APE

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

If you kill a farmer and take his loot you still have to bring it home. If someone kills you along the way you lost just as much as the farmer did.

If I kill a farmer, I get their loot. If a farmer kills me, they get nothing. Sure they don't lose anything either, but they don't gain anything that they didn't already put in the time/effort obtaining themselves already.

Guess I must be odd in wanting to have risk in all activities for all parties. Then again some people see ganking as "PVP" and high challenging game play as well. Likely why they play these types of games and trash talk genres with real competitive designs. Only fun when it's lopsided.

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