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oneply

Dodge should cost stam

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With the upcoming changes to survival tray combined with CC not being very good in the current build,I believe there is a very simple solution, make dodge cost stam. 

the removal of survival tray means choosing between dodge and block for some classes. Dodge and retaliate both cost stam, dodge does not. So someone who chooses block is double dipping into their stam pool while someone who chooses dodge is not. The latter allows dodge toons to retaliate far more often with little to no concern if they over use it. Which is why the current state of CC is almost useless. 

Moving dodge to stam based makes CC vastly more effective and also puts both block/dodge toons on the same footing of making that choice between retaliate or not. To me this is the simplest solution to the CC issue and makes the loss of survival tray less impactful to the blocking classes.

It does mean however some powers need a change. 

- Knight shield bash would have to remove stam not dodge pips. 

- High Elf dodge passive would essentially be the same. Just an instant stam refund.

- Escape artist would need stam regen instead of decrease pip regen. 

- Nethari and wood elf dodges would probably need to cost more stam than the regular dodges.

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45 minutes ago, oneply said:

Dodge and retaliate both cost stam, dodge does not.

noticed a typo / contradiction

 

 ... unfortunately I fear this would make CC too effective ... as stated "CC vastly more effective"? ... yet larger group battles can already feel pretty weighted down by constant CC spam.  So I would imagine if this approach were applied than certain individual CC immunity or stamina recovery (after multiple applied CC's) may need adjustment as well.   I do not relish total lock-downs in pvp, as often is the case when CC powers are not held in constant check or limited in some strict fashion.  

Edited by BelterBeratna
added clarity

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1 hour ago, oneply said:

Dodge and retaliate both cost stam, dodge does not. So someone who chooses block is double dipping into their stam pool while someone who chooses dodge is not. The latter allows dodge toons to retaliate far more often with little to no concern if they over use it. Which is why the current state of CC is almost useless.

This doesnt really change anything in the before and after scenario. Block and retaliate took stamina before, they still do. Dodge didnt take stamina, it still doesnt.

The only think that changes is that you cant have both block and dodge at the same time now.

Block makes you immune to crowd control, meaning you have less reason to retaliate in the first place.

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1 hour ago, oneply said:

Moving dodge to stam based makes CC vastly more effective and also puts both block/dodge toons on the same footing of making that choice between retaliate or not.

Dodge doesnt make you immune to CC (block does) dodge doesnt remove damage (block does) dodge doesnt heal your group (blocking crusaders do)

You cant equate dodge and block

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Block only makes you “immune“ to some cc not all. And if they go in the same slot than they are considered equal. A WE blink avoids all damage in its path. Block also doesn’t remove any damage.

 

In the current iteration:

knockdown is only effective because of a bug

stun/suppress is only effective for a split second

slow, root, and blind are the only ones that work. 2 of those you can’t retaliate out of.

 

I also agree that too many classes have CC elements in their tool kit. Which also devalues the CC promos. And is another subject to address. But even such there is no lock down feature and this change would not create that scenario unless the player being attacked is bad. 

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2 hours ago, oneply said:

- High Elf dodge passive would essentially be the same. Just an instant stam refund.

Either that or 33% stam cost reduction on dodge. 

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5 hours ago, oneply said:

Block only makes you “immune“ to some cc not all. And if they go in the same slot than they are considered equal. A WE blink avoids all damage in its path. Block also doesn’t remove any damage.

Dodge doesnt make you immune to any CC, you are hit by it or you arent. Block eliminates most all CC.

Going in the same slot doesnt mean they are equal...it means they are choices. All major disciplines go into the same 2 slots, it doesnt mean they are equal in every situation.

Block most certainly removes damage, it says so in the description....

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10 hours ago, oneply said:

With the upcoming changes to survival tray combined with CC not being very good in the current build,I believe there is a very simple solution, make dodge cost stam. 

the removal of survival tray means choosing between dodge and block for some classes. Dodge and retaliate both cost stam, dodge does not. So someone who chooses block is double dipping into their stam pool while someone who chooses dodge is not. The latter allows dodge toons to retaliate far more often with little to no concern if they over use it. Which is why the current state of CC is almost useless.

Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!
Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!
Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!
Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!
Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!
Bring back Champion Leap on Right Click!


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10 hours ago, Zatch said:

ild like to see armor type impact the amount of dodges you have/change the cool down time. 

 I've suggested this as well , Where it takes stamina but depending on the armor it uses more or less 

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12 hours ago, Zatch said:

ild like to see armor type impact the amount of dodges you have/change the cool down time. 

 

1 hour ago, yianni said:

 I've suggested this as well , Where it takes stamina but depending on the armor it uses more or less 

Yep - there's already a sprint modifier for stamina based on armor type. Shouldn't be hard to do that for dodge. 


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38 minutes ago, blazzen said:

 

Yep - there's already a sprint modifier for stamina based on armor type. Shouldn't be hard to do that for dodge. 

Where at? I thought thats just generic and not armor based

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8 hours ago, moneda said:

Also, disappointed to see language about dodge power/pips in the new High Elf racial. Still hoping dodging reverts to Stamina usage before this thing goes live. 🤞🏾 

Word. 


Hi, I'm moneda.

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IMO rather than making dodge cost stamina, block needs to have it movement penalty removed and its base damage reduction increased.

Block and retaliate both costing stam makes sense considering they're both ways to mitigate CC. Dodge is a mobility tool that doesn't mitigate CC.

I think there are good arguments for adjusting the cost of retaliate or the default refill rate of stamina or whatever. I also think to justify costing stamina, normal dodges would need additional functionality, like iframes or cc immunity or something. The races with long dodge are compelling, but the majority of races using short-dodge are simply not that good compared to retaliate when stacked up next to basic blocking.

If short-dodging cost stamina, people would just stop dodging because retaliate is just that damn good, and you'd have the inverse problem, blocking is now OP because of its fine control of stamina use and cc mitigation, and blockers typically can capitalize on an opponent's lack of mobility far better than dodge-based templates.

I think you guys have a somewhat myopic view of the situation colored by retaliate being both overpowered in small group engagements and underpowered in mass combat.


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