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Delvare

skill gains?

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      Ok want to start with that i am really enjoying the game so far.  I have not got into the PVP yet and hoping that plays as well as the PVE.  But what i do not get is skill gains, so you do not get anything for doing a skill like skinning, crafting or combat?  You only get to spend points in a tree that you get automatically?   This seems a bit off, what is the point of even doing the skill if i do not gain anything by doing it?  Why wouldn't i get better at crafting leather if i spend time crafting it?  Or am i missing something?  Seems to me with the way its set up with passive skill point gain that i am better off making a character then just not playing him for few weeks then log on and spend all the skill points i have and i am just as good as the guy who played every day and used the skills?

Am i missing something?  i hope i am.

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hello delvare,

no you are missing nothing. with next patch gathering and crafting will give your vessel also xp. they might think about you do sth and get better in it, but that is not planned atm. so basically you want to do the stuff to get the outcome. with better outcome and better passives you will get better stuff over time.

the passive is meant to close the gap between hardcore players and not so often guys. hardcore will still have better materials and so better stuff, but you can get someone pretty fast to your level if he has the passive, just invest into.

 

Edited by Surelia

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     I guess i see and understand were they are coming from, i work long hours and do not get to play much, but when i do i like to see an accomplishment (gains) at the end of the day, like batter at what ever i was working on.  

Not sure this will work well,  you seem to be giving me no real incentive to log on and play, if all it gets me is better materials witch i can most likely buy from players anyways.  An all passive skill tree seems to me a bad idea, i get know rewords for playing?  

I like the idea behind the passive skill tree but there should be a balance otherwise people will tire of the game after a small amount off time. 

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There are a few incentives to log on and play:

  • Acquire resources. Even if you can trade resources with other players, they will want a fair trade, so it's not like you can just never play and still acquire resources.
  • Acquire vessel EXP. You will need to level up your vessel. Once it's maxed, get a better vessel and max that. Help your guildmates max their vessels. It seems unlikely to me that we will ever reach a time when vessel EXP is completely unneeded.
  • Help your guild and/or faction win battles. There are many skirmishes, ganks, and sieges over the course of a single campaign. (The reward for this is not in the form of progression, but rather in the form of glory or potentially prizes. You can also see how many "points" you have captured for your faction on a leaderboard, which is satisfying.)

FYI, if I recall correctly the devs have discussed (but not confirmed) the idea of allowing players an active way to increase your "passive tree" EXP, like being able to buy excess EXP from other players for example.

Maybe you will not feel the same, but in my experience it has been really rewarding to log in and provide help for my guild/faction. Fighting for victory has been really fun, and a LOT of hard work is needed.

Welcome to Crowfall btw. 

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This is an issue/concern that has been brought up for years. ACE has mentioned they might add more active progression, but who knows when if they will. Originally there was no leveling or talent training with progression all coming from passive training. To me that made sense. When they added leveling/talents it decreased the reasoning for passive training.

I'd like to see some blend of active/passive training for crafting/harvesting/combat. Such as you get 50% from active or passive or you can boost your passive training speed by 10% per day by actively doing things or any number of ways to provide progression that feels like it is tied to what we are doing.

Banging on a rock or skinning an animal for materials isn't the same satisfaction as reaching milestones in progression. Much like leveling that seems more like a chore/speed bump then satisfying. Considering you can skip leveling with the sacrifice system, it makes actually going out and having to do mundane things even less satisfying.

Actively playing is going to net you the things you need to win. Passive training isn't going to give you animal hides or rocks to build with. You have to log in and play regularly. You can't win a campaign with passive training and logging in once in a while.

Edited by APE

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7 hours ago, Delvare said:

      Ok want to start with that i am really enjoying the game so far.  I have not got into the PVP yet and hoping that plays as well as the PVE.  But what i do not get is skill gains, so you do not get anything for doing a skill like skinning, crafting or combat?  You only get to spend points in a tree that you get automatically?   This seems a bit off, what is the point of even doing the skill if i do not gain anything by doing it?  Why wouldn't i get better at crafting leather if i spend time crafting it?  Or am i missing something?  Seems to me with the way its set up with passive skill point gain that i am better off making a character then just not playing him for few weeks then log on and spend all the skill points i have and i am just as good as the guy who played every day and used the skills?

Am i missing something?  i hope i am.

The passive skill system is an alternative to the grind for skills. Would it really be better if you needed to spend 50+ hours grinding to max out your skills? That seems like it would be counterproductive in a game that is supposed to be focused on PvP. Instead of worrying about raising your skills, you can spend more time working toward PvP related objectives. Yes, they could make the progression much faster, but then what's the point of even having a progression? They might as well make it a MOBA at that point.

There's more to progression in Crowfall than just passive skill training. If you do nothing but train your skills, while someone else is training their skills AND playing the game, you are going to absolutely be behind. While you aren't playing, you aren't helping your faction/guild win the campaign. You aren't harvesting resources, crafting gear or obtaining the various recipes and tools used by crafters. You aren't leveling any vessels, gaining experience with your chosen class or accumulating wealth.

You've already bought the game, so you'll get to start your training on day 1 with everyone else. It will be a completely level playing field. For the people who come after, there will be catchup mechanics. We don't know exactly how that will work, but they have mentioned a couple ideas in the past, one of which includes the ability to gain some skill training by doing in-game activities.

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The only problem I have with the system is that you have two slots and have to pick between Combat/Crafting/Exploration when Crafting and Exploration go hand in hand but then you have to leave out Combat...

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34 minutes ago, pixeldev said:

The only problem I have with the system is that you have two slots and have to pick between Combat/Crafting/Exploration when Crafting and Exploration go hand in hand but then you have to leave out Combat...

This is intentional, to force players to cooperate with one another for areas they are weak in. Crowfall is not a good solo MMO. 

Edit to add that crafters can be valuable without being gatherers and vice versa; once you find a good group for CF, you’ll find your services are always in demand. Often in my experience you can trade your services for the services of someone specialized in something else. You can provide value to your group without “doing it all.”

Edited by superbearwars

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5 hours ago, superbearwars said:

This is intentional, to force players to cooperate with one another for areas they are weak in. Crowfall is not a good solo MMO. 

Or just have multiple accounts.

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19 hours ago, Arkade said:

The passive skill system is an alternative to the grind for skills. Would it really be better if you needed to spend 50+ hours grinding to max out your skills? That seems like it would be counterproductive in a game that is supposed to be focused on PvP. Instead of worrying about raising your skills, you can spend more time working toward PvP related objectives. Yes, they could make the progression much faster, but then what's the point of even having a progression? They might as well make it a MOBA at that point.

Might be surprising but not everyone wants to PVP all the time or at all. Some people actually like working towards unlocking and achieving things that take effort/skill and not simply time. MMOs are grindy by nature, Crowfall is no exception. What it lacks is a lot of micro features that keep people logging in be it for a few minutes or hours. New crafters and harvesters can't be handed gear and able to complete relatively evenly with aged accounts. They bring much less value. Someone that wants to harvest can just harvest at whatever training they have, it is a flat grind without progress.

I don't get the extreme of you have to grind 100 hours or make it a MOBA. Some how games have been something in the middle for 20+ years without issue. If there was no leveling and the typical gear grind found in PVE games I would say leave it be, but since they went that route, passive progression as is makes less sense. They should of stuck with the original specialized role, passive training only system or revamped it, not just tack on the same boring PVE systems. Imagine if they could mix active/passive and make more happy. If only that wasn't impossible :rolleyes:

I'd much rather have everything tied to vessels, gear, disciplines and some sort of active progression system that would limit what one account could do at a time. Effortless and skill-less passive training is the opposite of challenging or entertaining to me. At least some games mask this with a crazy number of choices or web layout (POE, Albion), even the layout and design of Crowfall's is boring.

19 hours ago, Arkade said:

You've already bought the game, so you'll get to start your training on day 1 with everyone else. It will be a completely level playing field. For the people who come after, there will be catchup mechanics. We don't know exactly how that will work, but they have mentioned a couple ideas in the past, one of which includes the ability to gain some skill training by doing in-game activities.

Catch up mechanics defeat the purpose of passive progression IMO. If someone can come later or buy more accounts and skip the time gate, what's the point? If they make it some what active then that defeats the purpose of passive even more.

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10 minutes ago, APE said:

Catch up mechanics defeat the purpose of passive progression IMO. If someone can come later or buy more accounts and skip the time gate, what's the point? If they make it some what active then that defeats the purpose of passive even more.

You wont get to double dip active and passive to move faster through skills than anyone else.  Yes, adding any grind sucked and strayed from the design we bought into...  but we certainly aren't going to add more grind.  You don't get to skip the time gate, even taking all the training from an alt account and passing it via catch up mechanic scrolls to another account cannot put it ahead of the day one training.  It can make that one account have wider training but not further training.  The main point of passives is to set a steady measurable pace to gear progression and unlocks...  crafted gear doesn't get better than dropped gear for about 3 weeks to a month at 1x thus we all fight fight fight at the start and just bank the higher resources at the start till the crafters can use them effectively.   You can make a fancy Legendary piece one month in but it wont have stats much higher than a green piece.

WE ALL GET OUR PASSIVES RESET FOR 5.110, probably the last reset before soft launch.

 


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Might be surprising but not everyone wants to PVP all the time or at all. Some people actually like working towards unlocking and achieving things that take effort/skill and not simply time. MMOs are grindy by nature, Crowfall is no exception. What it lacks is a lot of micro features that keep people logging in be it for a few minutes or hours. New crafters and harvesters can't be handed gear and able to complete relatively evenly with aged accounts. They bring much less value. Someone that wants to harvest can just harvest at whatever training they have, it is a flat grind without progress.

I spend 99% of my time in game harvesting and crafting, or I did, when I was playing. I'm just waiting for the patch now. There are active ways to improve as a harvester or crafter. Farming resources, hunger shards, exploration souls and crafting tools/recipes. Crafting/acquiring better gear. Crafting/acquiring and leveling better vessels. Making potions and food items.

That said, I think they could improve the experience for new players via the advantages and disadvantages system (whenever it gets added). Let players choose advantages and disadvantages that give them a leg up on becoming harvesters or crafters at the expense of combat.

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4 hours ago, Frykka said:

You wont get to double dip active and passive to move faster through skills than anyone else.  Yes, adding any grind sucked and strayed from the design we bought into...  but we certainly aren't going to add more grind.  

There are multiple ways to improve passive training, progression, character building, active achievement without double dipping rewarding no lifers, adding excessive grind, or removing the systems already in place. To me the current model is just not full realized and they got to "good enough" stage and moved on.

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2 hours ago, Arkade said:

I spend 99% of my time in game harvesting and crafting, or I did, when I was playing. I'm just waiting for the patch now. There are active ways to improve as a harvester or crafter. Farming resources, hunger shards, exploration souls and crafting tools/recipes. Crafting/acquiring better gear. Crafting/acquiring and leveling better vessels. Making potions and food items.

That said, I think they could improve the experience for new players via the advantages and disadvantages system (whenever it gets added). Let players choose advantages and disadvantages that give them a leg up on becoming harvesters or crafters at the expense of combat.

You spend 99% of your time doing non PVP in a PVP focused game... Makes sense.

All the active ways to "progress" are not permanent, achievements, or anything out of the ordinary grind found in any PVE game.

Something I'd like to see maybe added later on would be secondary role specific progression.

Killing players, doing siege, capturing POI, caravans transport, PVE, crafting, harvesting, city building, etc could all have their own experience progression be it permanent or per campaign. Unlocking buffs (think seasonal), passives and even active powers to use forever or in a particular campaign. Maybe limit it to one or two at a time like passive training. Would add something that passive training and alt accounts couldn't earn. Give players something to work towards in short/long term path.

This would leave the current system alone but give players more to look forward too. Put in a proper structure so people can't just grind out in a day or whatever and it is something earned over days/weeks/months.

This type of system is more of what keeps people engaged then click a node and check back in a week or two. Would be work, but all games need to grow just as players need to. If the system was per campaign, then it is a goal everyone can work towards regardless if they have a chance at winning a campaign or not.

Edited by APE

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5 hours ago, APE said:

Might be surprising but not everyone wants to PVP all the time or at all.

You defend the people who don't PvP...

35 minutes ago, APE said:

You spend 99% of your time doing non PVP in a PVP focused game... Makes sense.

Then criticize me for not PvPing...

Makes sense.

Honest question: do you actually play the game? In 4 1/2 years, I've never seen anyone named Ape in the game.

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10 minutes ago, Arkade said:

You defend the people who don't PvP...

Then criticize me for not PvPing...

Makes sense.

Sorry didn't mean to come off as criticizing you. You commented that people can focus on PVPing instead of grinding thanks to passive training removing an aspect of grinding, yet grinding and doing non-PVP makes up a good chunk of game play (currently). Someone that wants to do non-PVP 99% of the time has to deal with time gated progression. For those that do PVP, there isn't any form of progress either that can't be erased during the next siege or by standing in circles. Just find it missing something.

10 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Honest question: do you actually play the game? In 4 1/2 years, I've never seen anyone named Ape in the game.

I haven't played regularly probably half way through the trial campaigns as doing the same blah experience over and over with similar outcomes isn't exciting for me. Not exactly what I was looking for, next update I'll be on hopefully more. Still log in to get my participation trophies sometimes. Mainly used this account on Test, but I have other accounts as anyone serious about the game should. Which is my gripe, I have alts that as just as good if not better on paper then people actually trying.

As someone that wants to mainly PVP, I shouldn't be able to hop on a crafting or harvesting account and pump out whatever as long as I have vessel/gear to support it. Zero effort to get there. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of every trade, but skipping the progression aspect takes a lot of the game experience and challenge out of it. I get no satisfaction from it myself. Others might differ.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Which is my gripe, I have alts that as just as good if not better on paper then people actually trying.

I doubt that. Your alts are useless if you haven't put considerable effort into equipping them with vessels and gear.


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35 minutes ago, Jah said:

I doubt that. Your alts are useless if you haven't put considerable effort into equipping them with vessels and gear.

All of which can be bypassed effort wise. If you hand an alt trained account and a new player the same gear/vessel, the trained account should have a considerable head start regardless if neither knows how to play whatever role. By the time either learns how to play, one is a head because it is older and nothing more. Just seems wonky to me in a game about meaningful choices, risk v reward, specialized roles, strategy blah blah blah.

Is what it is. I understand the point of passive training, just wish there was more to the game. Once the initial new game smell is gone, just wonder if it will be enough to not have much progression people can actually control outside of "win a campaign" big picture things that aren't individual based.

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20 hours ago, APE said:

Is what it is. I understand the point of passive training, just wish there was more to the game. Once the initial new game smell is gone, just wonder if it will be enough to not have much progression people can actually control outside of "win a campaign" big picture things that aren't individual based.

I would have liked to have seen passive training linked to the crow. Sort of like how in eve you can train for different ship categories, in CF it would revolve around classes and races. Then each campaign would have its own different skill tree, with skill point gain relative to campaign length. I feel that it would help negate the need for catchup mechanics in general. But, as you said, Is what it is.

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3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I would have liked to have seen passive training linked to the crow. Sort of like how in eve you can train for different ship categories, in CF it would revolve around classes and races. Then each campaign would have its own different skill tree, with skill point gain relative to campaign length. I feel that it would help negate the need for catchup mechanics in general. But, as you said, Is what it is.

With the foundation systems in place, they could really go in any number of directions without having to re-do everything. Some sort of blend that gives people constant passive progression that still provides value to new/old accounts with some active limited achievement could work with what they have. Active progression that resets each campaign would at least give some replay ability and allow players to tailor their goals each campaign.

For someone like me that doesn't want to train everything and especially those of us with multiple accounts, passive training and vessels have limited potential. Once I cap XYZ and obtain a few decent vessels, really won't have much personal progression. The gear grind is nothing special.

The hooks that keep people logging in daily are missing from this type of design. All the big picture stuff and what they come up with for day to day will need to compensate and so far I don't see it. Next update come out come out where ever you are.

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