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New World, Old Problems

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

If anyone can afford to run pvp and pve servers in tandem its them.

I simply cannot remember a mmorpg having both pvp and pve servers not suffering from player decline on the pvp servers.

Many games become a bad experience once player mass falls below a critical level. One simply cannot afford to let new players run into that sort of thing straight away.

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5 hours ago, VaMei said:

EvE has been reported to be dying since it's 1st year in the market back in 2003, yet as of this writing there are 19,020 players online, and within the last 24 hours there were 27,036 concurrent players. Obviously there is a place in the MMO market for players that want a cutthroat game.

Eve is an anomaly.

Its also space themed, which may or may not have a distinct impact as to why it is an anomaly. You will notice the OP article doesnt mention Eve, it describes fantasy pvp mmorpgs and is not incorrect.

27k players is not at all impressive either considering there is nowhere else for them to go in the space pvp genre.

Edited by Toadwart

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5 hours ago, VaMei said:

EvE has been reported to be dying since it's 1st year in the market back in 2003, yet as of this writing there are 19,020 players online, and within the last 24 hours there were 27,036 concurrent players. Obviously there is a place in the MMO market for players that want a cutthroat game.

There are many reasons why EvE still lives. One key difference is the lack of MMORPG progression mechanics. Specifically the type of progression that CRPGs generally provide. EvE is partially successful because, with a few notable events being exceptions, players can mostly avoid PvP when and if they choose. The Crowfall team is trying something of a hybrid too -- with some ideas such as realtime skill training likely influencing them. We will need more active and sustainably engaged testers to know how successful that effort is.

As an aside, EvE exploits sunk cost and other manipulative psychologies in profoundly unhealthy ways. I hope we're not using them as role models. 

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11 hours ago, Deioth said:

This sort of perspective makes me wonder what people truly expected or wanted out of Crowfall.  It is being built as a PVP MMORPG, not an MMOPVPG.  Granted, many of us backed for some of their visions, but either due to inadequate management/talent or simple unfeasibility there have been compromises and changes.  Still, this game isn't trying to be high fantasy Planetside.  It is trying to be a PVP MMORPG.  It has far more and in depth systems to contend with than the more jump in and play design of Planetside and your sort of mind set really makes me wonder what people were really expecting to get.  This is a spiritual successor to Shadowbane and that game failed less for its niche and more for its technical failures and the problems that came with stagnant servers after one side or another "won".

We know they'll keep improving the PvE experience because they want these areas to become PvP hotspots, but 5.110 is going to be a major PvP features addition, and Crowfall of anyone seems like the most dedicated PVPer niche MMO on the horizon that has kept consistently to such a design goal.  New World gave up right away, CU is ignoring Ashes of Creation's mistakes (which was always meant to be a more even split of PvE to PvP, leaning PvP ala ArcheAge's original vision anyway so CU is especially confusing) and the one MMO that has always been pushing "PvP is our goal" from the start is Crowfall.

I didn't want leveling. I didn't want the same old color coded tiered gear treadmill. I wanted PVP to have risk/reward, meaning, and multiple ways to experience it. Wasn't expecting Planetside or that rarely played genre called MOBAs, but the initial passive system, shallow power curve, and along with no leveling did paint it to be something that it isn't today.

To be fair it isn't hard to get a starter vessel/gear and go out into the world, but it is going to take some time to get to the point most will find competitive thanks to that color scheme. Might not be terrible for those starting day 1 or that know how to play, but that usually isn't the majority.

Lacking quantity/quality of PVE content doesn't make something a good PVP game. WoW has more variety and easier access to PVP then Crowfall likely ever will. Almost every semi popular MMO has PVP in some shape or form. I expect a PVP game to focus on PVP, not be a by product of required PVE grinding, which most MMOs have.

The next updates sounds like it will take things several steps further, but will have to see how far. I fear that the big focus on caravans which sound like PVE escort quests might not be enough. PVE sparking PVP happens in many games, but it needs to be more then ganking for the sake of it or to ruin someones day. IMO, siege is rather lackluster. PVPing without full loot takes a lot value away. Standing in circles for "conquest" is a joke.

Not sure what I expected exactly as hype filled the void of actual details, but I believe there was 8 or so streamers on Twitch earlier and every one was doing PVE. Last night or before I saw someone streaming a friendly faction duel. That is not what I expect of a "PVP" game. Can use whatever excuse/reasoning, but I've never experienced that in a pre-launch "PVP" game.

Edited by APE

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7 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Amazon literally owns half of the internet's servers.

If anyone can afford to run pvp and pve servers in tandem its them.

Generally that's all the pvp heads really ever want. One server. In most cases there are enough of them to justify at least one server. Especially in cases where the game already factors pvp damage modeling in to its design this isn't that expensive of a variant to include provided your game can actually support more than one server.

I agree, at least one server to accommodate would be fine. If it is popular, open more. If it is empty, close it down. Few games that have done this seem to have an initial popularity but eventually it dies off as the same issues occur and without anything in place, people switch to more popular server options or move on from the game. Having played in the NW Alpha, I didn't see it as a good PVP game with what they had, be it cutthroat or not. To switch it up to mainly focus on PVE, they must of done a crazy amount of work or this is going to flop hard. Games need to be designed from the ground up to be something, not swap major components along the way or the last minute.

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7 hours ago, VaMei said:

EvE has been reported to be dying since it's 1st year in the market back in 2003, yet as of this writing there are 19,020 players online, and within the last 24 hours there were 27,036 concurrent players. Obviously there is a place in the MMO market for players that want a cutthroat game.

I'm curious how many of those are unique players and how much each of them has spent on the game over the years. EVE is a unique experience with a dedicated community. I don't see the same happening with Crowfall or any fantasy MMO. Crowd is just different despite the vocal minority that thinks 100 million hardcore stab yo own mama for a win PVPers are just waiting for such a game.

People still play Everquest, MUDs, millions still play WoW, etc. Good games will have players. What matters is how many are needed by a company to stay open and or not move into questionable payment models and game decisions. No clue if 20k would be enough for Crowfall and ACE.

Black Desert from the now owners of EVE has a questionable payment model, but offers a lot of content for PVE and decent PVP. It also has millions of players compared to EVE's. They can afford to buy CCP with its smaller population. Not sure a brand new game can maintain or grow like a very unique game from years past did without catering to a larger audience and not bringing all the bells and whistles that attract crowds.

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4 hours ago, Dao said:

There are many reasons why EvE still lives. One key difference is the lack of MMORPG progression mechanics. Specifically the type of progression that CRPGs generally provide. EvE is partially successful because, with a few notable events being exceptions, players can mostly avoid PvP when and if they choose. The Crowfall team is trying something of a hybrid too -- with some ideas such as realtime skill training likely influencing them. We will need more active and sustainably engaged testers to know how successful that effort is.

As an aside, EvE exploits sunk cost and other manipulative psychologies in profoundly unhealthy ways. I hope we're not using them as role models. 

Exactly. CCP has repeatedly stated that only ~10% of players ever enter nullsec. By any standard, the game is largely played by PvEers and very casual PvPers. But those people create the ecosystem that allow hardcore PvPers their gameplay. The irony is that most of us are unable (or unwilling) to understand that the we need that ecosystem for the game to keep going. So many of the nullsec inhabitants keep throwing childish tantrums whenever content for PvEers are introduced, without realizing that they would rule an empty galaxy if that very content didn't exist. Features can benefit a you even though you don't personally engage with it.

Edited by Feathercoat

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8 hours ago, APE said:

I didn't want leveling. I didn't want the same old color coded tiered gear treadmill. I wanted PVP to have risk/reward, meaning, and multiple ways to experience it. Wasn't expecting Planetside or that rarely played genre called MOBAs, but the initial passive system, shallow power curve, and along with no leveling did paint it to be something that it isn't today.

The initial NPE was horrendous.  The leveling process I strongly believe is necessary to ensure players can readily understand and get comfortable with their chosen class.  The talent system is also a major improvement over the apparent path that they were previously taking.  Now, as they bring 5.110 online, they can continue to introduce tweaks and changes and improvements to ensure the most we spent leveling any vessel, even legendaries, is at worst a couple hours.  Other issues you point to are the result of pre-alpha, so again we'll be seeing increased choices, content, and risk/reward in 5.110 if they can implement their goals well.

Quote

To be fair it isn't hard to get a starter vessel/gear and go out into the world, but it is going to take some time to get to the point most will find competitive thanks to that color scheme. Might not be terrible for those starting day 1 or that know how to play, but that usually isn't the majority.

The current power curve crafting has is definitely in need of a rebalance, and that's not even because you can get monster drop gear comparable to most blue crafted.  There is a definite lack of meaningful choice and viability in crafted gear (just get anti crit armor, for example) and the current way they stat out between rarer items and maxed crafting is too significant and IMO a bit backwards.  If green monster drops should be considered competitive, they need to reverse the current set up where the damage/armor stat differences are so significant and where added stats are so limited and pitiful while also cutting or significantly increasing stat/damage/armor cap potential based on rarity and instead make higher rarity mean more stats and options.  Some of the TTK issues are overall class/combat balancing issues, but crafting (and passives, too) are currently way too significant in the current iteration when even a super rare "perfect stat" weapon or armor monster drop is 40-50% weaker than a maxed crafter of the same rarity.  Basically, a journeyman level crafter should be able to make green weapons/armor within 10% of the damage/armor values of a maxed legendary craft, but the legendary has lots of extra stats, and that would represent a huge fix for this issue.

Quote

Lacking quantity/quality of PVE content doesn't make something a good PVP game. WoW has more variety and easier access to PVP then Crowfall likely ever will. Almost every semi popular MMO has PVP in some shape or form. I expect a PVP game to focus on PVP, not be a by product of required PVE grinding, which most MMOs have.

I agree with PvE content in the direction the game seems to have been wanting to go from the start and in the way they've described their goal is with it.  If they can pull the overall package off, I think the anti-pver camp will grow to appreciate the role it plays.

Quote

The next updates sounds like it will take things several steps further, but will have to see how far. I fear that the big focus on caravans which sound like PVE escort quests might not be enough. PVE sparking PVP happens in many games, but it needs to be more then ganking for the sake of it or to ruin someones day. IMO, siege is rather lackluster. PVPing without full loot takes a lot value away. Standing in circles for "conquest" is a joke.

Ganking in Crowfall will be meaningful because it is a race for resources to initiate attacks on your enemies and shore up one's own defenses.  We need as much content as possible that risks being caught flat footed but is necessary to progress.  Once they fix world banking and get guild banks implemented (and hopefully know enough to significantly limit God's Reach resources to push population into campaign) we should see even further improvements.  Siege will be getting a significant overall, as well.  The hope now is that this long period of no Live updates was worth the wait and proves fruitful.  Since New World shot itself in the foot, Crowfall has a real chance here, they just need to be able to pull it off.

Quote

Not sure what I expected exactly as hype filled the void of actual details, but I believe there was 8 or so streamers on Twitch earlier and every one was doing PVE. Last night or before I saw someone streaming a friendly faction duel. That is not what I expect of a "PVP" game. Can use whatever excuse/reasoning, but I've never experienced that in a pre-launch "PVP" game.

A lot of that is the consequence of pre-alpha populations.  Peak times we aren't even seeing 150+ people in the whole game.  There really is no PvP right now outside of fort and siege, so with the only other content being harvesting or warcamps... *shrug*

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11 hours ago, Toadwart said:

27k players is not at all impressive either considering there is nowhere else for them to go in the space pvp genre.

Don't make the same mistake the entire industry made ten years ago and assume a game is not successful or profitable because it doesn't post WoW numbers.

Fact is if your game can secure 30k average players, your game is financially solvent.

 

It might not be "impressive" to you, but its certainly capable of paying not only its own bills, but made CCP enough money to start and cancel several other games.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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19 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Don't make the same mistake the entire industry made ten years ago and assume a game is not successful or profitable because it doesn't post WoW numbers.

Fact is if your game can secure 30k average players, your game is financially solvent.

It might not be "impressive" to you, but its certainly capable of paying not only its own bills, but made CCP enough money to start and cancel several other games.

Precisely. ACE didn't set out to challenge WoW for player numbers, because they know that road is littered with the wreckage of failed upstarts.

They targeted an underserved niche market, because they feel they know how to serve that market, and they'll face less competition doing it.

If anything, with NW steering toward mild PvP, I'd bet ACE is weighing going *more* hardcore to avoid overlapping with them.

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6 hours ago, VaMei said:

They targeted an underserved niche market

Its an under served market because there is no money in it, let's just make that clear.

The Hardcore pvp crowd is self-destructive and self-defeating by its very nature of treating others in the worst ways imaginable that the game mechanics allow as they chip away at their peers desire to log on and play the game with them until there arent enough people left playing to pay the bills anymore. How long that takes is directly related to how the game designers place safeguards in the game to curb this behavior pattern.

Why amazon didnt realize this sooner is beyond me. The OP article points out an established history of hardcore fantasy mmorpg failures and no successes. I guess they thought the survival genre spliced in would be enough to win people over and at the last minute they realized it wasnt.

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9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Fact is if your game can secure 30k average players, your game is financially solvent.

Depends upon cash shop though. With heavy P2W you only need a couple thousand whales to keep a small dev team for minor updates, meaning no big PvE expansions. Without a robust cash shop I cannot see how it would be financially possible to stay open. 

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4 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Depends upon cash shop though. With heavy P2W you only need a couple thousand whales to keep a small dev team for minor updates, meaning no big PvE expansions. Without a robust cash shop I cannot see how it would be financially possible to stay open. 

Don't worry we'll get an update on VIP and the cash shop 24 hours before launch. :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, Deioth said:

The initial NPE was horrendous. 

Lacking a NPE isn't really a NPE. There are other things they could of done beside the same old leveling treadmill.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

if they can implement their goals well.

Which is they key factor.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

The current power curve crafting has is definitely in need of a rebalance

I would prefer quality over quantity in the stat department. I don't mind a lot of stats, but there shouldn't be too much cross over where some become pointless and other too strong. Sounds like the update might address this so will have to see. Being able to get all the good stats maxed without much compromise should not be possible, be it legendary or not. All choices should have a down side one way or another.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

I agree with PvE content in the direction the game seems to have been wanting to go from the start and in the way they've described their goal is with it.  If they can pull the overall package off, I think the anti-pver camp will grow to appreciate the role it plays.

I'm a fan of GOOD pve. Meat sack grinding isn't exciting to me, no matter how much health or damage they might have. Hopefully I can avoid it with sacrifice and other means.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

Ganking in Crowfall will be meaningful

Ganking has value, but I'd like to see more meaningful PVP as a whole that isn't restricted to timers. For me ganking offers limited entertainment. It's like bullying someone for their lunch money. Might get a laugh and some change, but really... Maybe PVPers will have to babysit harvesters/caravans and defend them 24/7 to find a challenge, but was expecting more options.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

Siege will be getting a significant overall, as well. 

Such as? I must have missed this news.

14 hours ago, Deioth said:

A lot of that is the consequence of pre-alpha populations.  Peak times we aren't even seeing 150+ people in the whole game.  There really is no PvP right now outside of fort and siege, so with the only other content being harvesting or warcamps... *shrug*

When there were more people there seemed to be more dueling. Be it organized or not. Two sides fighting just to fight is essentially dueling. There isn't any purpose behind it. Which is fine if that is all you want, but I expect more as other non-PVP focused games have done more for PVP. Playing tag with POI isn't much better, especially when much of it is possible without any PVP. It is more an issue with the pre-alpha model and feature availability. Hopefully this changes soon, but no clue yet.

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As a new player from many many sandbox MMOs, i like the balance of PvP and PvE crowfall is hoping to achieve.  As long as PvP is the endgame, and everything can lead to it, im fine with it.  What i do not hope to see is 100% loot including gear.  That is a game i will not play because it will be dead in no time.  While many love the idea, it isn't marketable.  I want campaigns that are alive in activity, not people cowering in their safe zones afraid to go out without a massive group or gear disparity.  When it comes to gathering in 100% loot environment, ace will likely need to revisit one of its method of boosting gathering efficiency.  Combat stat points should not be sacrificed to better gather.   I can understand forcing people to specialize in one aspect or another, but those stat points should be separated from the combat based points via a different additive slot for gathering/crafting while making the gear.

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10 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Its an under served market because there is no money in it, let's just make that clear.

The Hardcore pvp crowd is self-destructive and self-defeating by its very nature of treating others in the worst ways imaginable that the game mechanics allow as they chip away at their peers desire to log on and play the game with them until there arent enough people left playing to pay the bills anymore. How long that takes is directly related to how the game designers place safeguards in the game to curb this behavior pattern.

Why amazon didnt realize this sooner is beyond me. The OP article points out an established history of hardcore fantasy mmorpg failures and no successes. I guess they thought the survival genre spliced in would be enough to win people over and at the last minute they realized it wasnt.

Rust would like to say hi. Sold millions of copies, been patched for nearly a decade, and has one of the worst communities out there. The only reason pvp games haven't been popular is the RoI potential being smaller than WoW. 

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1 hour ago, Zatch said:

Rust would like to say hi. Sold millions of copies, been patched for nearly a decade, and has one of the worst communities out there. The only reason pvp games haven't been popular is the RoI potential being smaller than WoW.

According to Rust's wikipedia page, it is a survival game....not a fantasy pvp mmorpg game (totally different genres)

 

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5 hours ago, Toadwart said:

According to Rust's wikipedia page, it is a survival game....not a fantasy pvp mmorpg game (totally different genres)

 

You never said anything about genre, and do you really think genre matters that much? 

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