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adreu

New World, Old Problems

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5 hours ago, Zatch said:

You never said anything about genre, and do you really think genre matters that much? 

You literally quoted the previous post when he referenced the genre. 😈

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6 hours ago, Zatch said:

You never said anything about genre, and do you really think genre matters that much? 

I think genre matters a lot.

Ive invested 60 hours a week+ into fantasy mmorpgs and mobas for over 20 years now, but I dont touch space-themed mmorpgs, survival games, shooters or battle royals.

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19 hours ago, APE said:

I would prefer quality over quantity in the stat department. I don't mind a lot of stats, but there shouldn't be too much cross over where some become pointless and other too strong. Sounds like the update might address this so will have to see. Being able to get all the good stats maxed without much compromise should not be possible, be it legendary or not. All choices should have a down side one way or another.

Hopefully this changes soon, but no clue yet.

My take is that if the absolute max a weapon can be for damage with perfect rolls and legendary resources is say 110-170 then reaching say 95-155 should be possible with 30% of a crafting tree completed with green resources.  What that max craft legendary resource would also net would be (again, perfect rolls here) say 15% crit, 10% penetration, 10% extra damage, 40 main stat, and 150 AP versus the green only getting maybe 50 AP and 10 main stat due to lack of remaining experimentation points, but a green at max crafting might still net 9% crit, 6% pen, 6% dam, 25 main stat, and 100 AP.  The most important thing, being the weapon's damage or armor's mitigation values, should be the easiest to cap out even with lesser resources and journeyman level craft skill.

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I'm a fan of GOOD pve. Meat sack grinding isn't exciting to me, no matter how much health or damage they might have. Hopefully I can avoid it with sacrifice and other means.
 

Judging by what I've heard, it will be very possible to make sure your first white vessel is the longest you ever spend "grinding" experience as more shortcuts come online and the economy expands with population.

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Ganking has value, but I'd like to see more meaningful PVP as a whole that isn't restricted to timers. For me ganking offers limited entertainment. It's like bullying someone for their lunch money. Might get a laugh and some change, but really... Maybe PVPers will have to babysit harvesters/caravans and defend them 24/7 to find a challenge, but was expecting more options.

When there were more people there seemed to be more dueling. Be it organized or not. Two sides fighting just to fight is essentially dueling. There isn't any purpose behind it. Which is fine if that is all you want, but I expect more as other non-PVP focused games have done more for PVP. Playing tag with POI isn't much better, especially when much of it is possible without any PVP. It is more an issue with the pre-alpha model and feature availability.

A lot of the issues we have right now are due to pre-alpha with so much of the game being feature INcomplete and having a campaign peak population that rivals still existent MUDs.  With a more feature complete game and higher population we should definitely be on our way to a far more engaging and emergent experience.

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Such as? I must have missed this news.

January Q&A IIRC covered a few points, or the one prior.  They're experimenting with various ideas such as sieges having "stages" so it's not merely knocking down a wall and bum rushing the tree.  Definitive details are sparse, but they fully understand the problem areas we face right now.

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20 hours ago, mcfizzlestag said:

What i do not hope to see is 100% loot including gear. 

If they do try this at some point in the future, it would be a special Campaign only that you wouldn't have to play if you weren't interested in it. Definitely would not be fun for everyone. I'd like to try full loot eventually to see how it changes the strategy game, but I think inventory loot is fine for now and the best ruleset to launch with.


tiPrpwh.png

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7 minutes ago, miraluna said:

 Definitely would not be fun for everyone.

I would say the same thing about having inventory looting but not allowing paperdoll looting. While fun for the ganker, the PvE player will not have fun and ACE will be forced to nerf pvp into the ground since PvE players generate the lion share of revenue in mmorpg's. 

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5 hours ago, Deioth said:

My take is that if the absolute max a weapon can be for damage with perfect rolls and legendary resources is say 110-170 then reaching say 95-155 should be possible with 30% of a crafting tree completed with green resources.  What that max craft legendary resource would also net would be (again, perfect rolls here) say 15% crit, 10% penetration, 10% extra damage, 40 main stat, and 150 AP versus the green only getting maybe 50 AP and 10 main stat due to lack of remaining experimentation points, but a green at max crafting might still net 9% crit, 6% pen, 6% dam, 25 main stat, and 100 AP.  The most important thing, being the weapon's damage or armor's mitigation values, should be the easiest to cap out even with lesser resources and journeyman level craft skill.

Not sure what it is currently as I don't play enough to focus on the specific math, but that is more of what I'd like to see.

5 hours ago, Deioth said:

Judging by what I've heard, it will be very possible to make sure your first white vessel is the longest you ever spend "grinding" experience as more shortcuts come online and the economy expands with population.

I hope so.

5 hours ago, Deioth said:

A lot of the issues we have right now are due to pre-alpha with so much of the game being feature INcomplete and having a campaign peak population that rivals still existent MUDs.  With a more feature complete game and higher population we should definitely be on our way to a far more engaging and emergent experience.

This next update better have a rather large spike and sustained population or this long standing view can be thrown in the recycle bin to be used again a few months down the line. I'm sure many will wait for launch to really care, but a beta resembling launch should have a healthy population if the experience is fun, incoming wipe or not.

5 hours ago, Deioth said:

January Q&A IIRC covered a few points, or the one prior.  They're experimenting with various ideas such as sieges having "stages" so it's not merely knocking down a wall and bum rushing the tree.  Definitive details are sparse, but they fully understand the problem areas we face right now.

Players having control of stronghold building should help make sieges more interesting as it shouldn't be the same base layout and strategy every time. 

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23 hours ago, mcfizzlestag said:

What i do not hope to see is 100% loot including gear.  That is a game i will not play because it will be dead in no time.  While many love the idea, it isn't marketable.  I want campaigns that are alive in activity, not people cowering in their safe zones afraid to go out without a massive group or gear disparity. 

The same could be said for Crowfall and similar looting games. I've seen plenty of complaints on here about people "hiding" in GR and suggestions to "force" them into campaigns.

People will do whatever is the least risky option with the most return.

Full loot can and does work in different games, be it they are MMORPG, survival, new/old, or some blend of various models.

Albion Online is one of the more recent games to do full loot and it is doing well.

Believe all of these have or had full loot in some form over the years: UO, EVE, Conan, ARK, Runescape, Darkfall, Rust, Mortal Online.

I do find it interesting that people use EVE as an example to justify certain design choices but looting isn't one of them.

I believe Crowfall has just as much risk being "dead" due to the cost of obtaining vessels/gear for long term use as it would if it was more easy come and go with full looting. We all draw our own lines in the sand, but really none of us know what will actually be better for the game's health.

Edited by APE

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5 hours ago, APE said:

The same could be said for Crowfall and similar looting games. I've seen plenty of complaints on here about people "hiding" in GR and suggestions to "force" them into campaigns.

LOL shhh. its going to much more fun watching ACE put in pvp opt-in or some other nerfs to pvp after launch. Relying on PvE grinding activities to promote pvp… what a flawed concept. Seen this song and dance many times before and it always ends the same.

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6 hours ago, APE said:

Not sure what it is currently as I don't play enough to focus on the specific math, but that is more of what I'd like to see.

Damage/Mitigation is capped.  Hard.  I'd show you some examples if I still had them.  It is one of the reasons why it isn't worth making anything except blue and better and why you only craft when maxed out due to how experimentation points work.  Hopefully the 5.110 test server lets us experiment with the new passive trees enough that we can actually test crafting's changes properly and I'll be able to make a proper balance suggestion post. 

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12 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I would say the same thing about having inventory looting but not allowing paperdoll looting. While fun for the ganker, the PvE player will not have fun

If manufacturing ever becomes a thing, and crafting time is no longer the bottleneck for green/blue gear, allowing us to have mid-grade backup gear always ready to go, then I could see paper-doll looting, or at least random items falling off the doll into the lootable inventory.

As things stand today, if we had full loot the first time a guild gets wiped in a campaign, that campaign is over for them.

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4 hours ago, mystafyi said:

LOL shhh. its going to much more fun watching ACE put in pvp opt-in or some other nerfs to pvp after launch. Relying on PvE grinding activities to promote pvp… what a flawed concept. Seen this song and dance many times before and it always ends the same.

Dregs is really going to be the test of how this game is going to work or not. Been so many complaints here and there over systems that are going to be magnified with the Dregs.

Guess we'll find out today with 5.110 patch. ACE did say by end of Feb right? :lol: Silly devs never learn, at least there aren't enough around to care at this point.

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6 hours ago, VaMei said:

As things stand today, if we had full loot the first time a guild gets wiped in a campaign, that campaign is over for them.

That's a pretty good argument that gear is still too impactful, or that gear requires way too many base resources. Without full loot, the predator has no risk while the prey is burdened with all the risk. Trying to base pvp in game to encounters this biased will end in failure.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, APE said:

The same could be said for Crowfall and similar looting games. I've seen plenty of complaints on here about people "hiding" in GR and suggestions to "force" them into campaigns.

People will do whatever is the least risky option with the most return.

Full loot can and does work in different games, be it they are MMORPG, survival, new/old, or some blend of various models.

Albion Online is one of the more recent games to do full loot and it is doing well.

Believe all of these have or had full loot in some form over the years: UO, EVE, Conan, ARK, Runescape, Darkfall, Rust, Mortal Online.

I do find it interesting that people use EVE as an example to justify certain design choices but looting isn't one of them.

I believe Crowfall has just as much risk being "dead" due to the cost of obtaining vessels/gear for long term use as it would if it was more easy come and go with full looting. We all draw our own lines in the sand, but really none of us know what will actually be better for the game's health.

Remember that the rank of harvest nodes and the rank of mobs were connected for a single parcel in all trials up through 5.100 so in order to allow leveling to 30 on a white vessel there had to be rank 8+ mobs which mandate rank 8+ resource nodes in the GR safe campaign.   This is a major correction on 5.110 so GR will now allow the new Level 25+ mobs to roam on a parcel with only R3 resource nodes...   people will not have much use for GR resources beyond farming additives and other crafting resources that do not have or give meaning to color scale.   The GR will be a leveling zone mostly.  
 

The goods will all require players to be in the danger zone
See the source image

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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6 hours ago, APE said:

Dregs is really going to be the test of how this game is going to work or not. Been so many complaints here and there over systems that are going to be magnified with the Dregs.

Guess we'll find out today with 5.110 patch. ACE did say by end of Feb right? :lol: Silly devs never learn, at least there aren't enough around to care at this point.

Surprising numbers are waiting in the wings, and even more for Beta...   what does a week or two matter in the cycle of 4+ years.   


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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5 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The goods will all require players to be in the danger zone

I hope so. Still though, people will go the path of least resistance.

2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Surprising numbers are waiting in the wings, and even more for Beta...   what does a week or two matter in the cycle of 4+ years.   

We shall see. Hopefully it is a matter of weeks and not months. Alpha was supposed to be out end of summer 2018. How they miscalculate such things or change the parameters of what development stages means is a bit confusing to me. Also confusing why they continue to give themselves timelines to miss.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, APE said:

I hope so. Still though, people will go the path of least resistance.

We shall see. Hopefully it is a matter of weeks and not months. Alpha was supposed to be out end of summer 2018. How they miscalculate such things or change the parameters of what development stages means is a bit confusing to me. Also confusing why they continue to give themselves timelines to miss.

Just figure it like your dating a lady...   a lady that takes time to get ready and is always fashionably late.   Combine that with a teenager you ask to take the garbage out...  then add Blairmath to the timing.   

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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29 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Just figure it like your dating a lady...   a lady that takes time to get ready and is always fashionably late.   Combine that with a teenager you ask to take the garbage out...  than add Blairmath to the timing.   

I try to treat them like professionals. You know those folks that do what they say, meet deadlines they themselves set and do quality work. I Would get banned if I treated them like a teenager.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, mystafyi said:

That's a pretty good argument that gear is still too impactful, or that gear requires way too many base resources. Without full loot, the predator has no risk while the prey is burdened with all the risk.

On the first part I disagree. Mats is not the crafting bottleneck, it's time vs need. We have so much blue material that we don't bother to export it. Greens are trash on the spot or vendor fodder. Since it takes just as long to craft green, blue, or purple gear, and replacements aren't needed that often, we wear purple. If full or partial loot was a thing so we needed replacements often, and we could throw mats at a factory & pull fresh gear tomorrow, we'd probably be wearing blues much of the time, greens on suicide missions, & purple only when failure is not an option.

On the second part I somewhat agree. Today both the sheep and the wolf risk wasting time & possible gear decay. If we had no recall, no world banking, and partial or full gear loot, then everyone is putting something on the line. A lone harvester risks a lot but all the reward is his, a guild harvester has zone and/or direct protection but the guild as a whole shares in the reward. A ganker hunting lone harvesters may have easy prey, while a guild raiding party is probably going to do little more than disrupt harvesting for a bit before they're killed.

Edited by VaMei

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Yea I think New World is making a huge mistake. Almost all of their content is trivial if there isn't PvP. The PvE can be cheesed and certainly can't compete with actual PvE MMOs.

I imagine New World is a game people will play for a month and then quit. 

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