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adreu

New World, Old Problems

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Posted (edited)
On 2/29/2020 at 6:01 AM, mystafyi said:

LOL shhh. its going to much more fun watching ACE put in pvp opt-in or some other nerfs to pvp after launch. Relying on PvE grinding activities to promote pvp… what a flawed concept. Seen this song and dance many times before and it always ends the same.

 This has been my issue with "pvp" games and is even now currently my issue with Crowfall. I don't believe 100% loot has to be the answer, but that doesn't immediately mean "give up" either. MMORPGs have evolved over many years and many iterations to get to where they are today; it didn't happen overnight.I was excited for New World until they backtracked. Their current "pvp" system is a joke; you have to grind generic PvE events for a CHANCE to be picked as a pvper, and if it's not a full-slot guild then they get to allow others to aid them, probably resulting in a messy PUG or ally-to-ally lockout of PvP.

Meh, I'm probably just sticking with boxed PvP experiences. Open world PvP is dead and probably will stay dead forever now. Right now I'm just waiting to see where Crowfall ends up with after its constant and seemingly endless churn of changes. I'm not especially pleased with it right now and neither friends or I are I are all that excited to play it, but since I already threw money I might as well see where it ends up.

But I'm right there with you. PvE grinding to support PvP is a hugely flawed concept, especially in games like Crowfall where the PvE is especially atrocious.

 

Edited by Nightmarian
Typos.

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Nightmarian said:

I was excited for New World until they backtracked.

I was in the alpha for new world and had no desire to play it at all. Now that they have backtracked, I will most likely pre-order, play and enjoy the game.

For every hard core pvp gamer there are a multitude of moderate pvp or pve players willing to take their spot. Why Amazon with all of their resources didnt identify this before starting work on the project is unfathomable, but they realized it now and are making a scramble to change the game into something that will appease an audience that can generate the income they desire.

Hardcore pvp gamers are incredibly loud so as to make it seem like there are more of them than anyone has realized and their voices should be heard. The reality, as history has shown time and time again, is that they barely quantify as a minority as there are so few of them and their toxicity alone can hurt a game more then their missing sub/cash shop purchases would.

Edited by Toadwart

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1 minute ago, Toadwart said:

I was in the alpha for new world and had no desire to play it at all. Now that they have backtracked, I will most likely pre-order, play and enjoy the game.

For every hard core pvp gamer there are a multitude of moderate pvp or pve players willing to take their spot. Why Amazon with all of their resources didnt identify this before starting work on the project is unfathomable, but they realized it now and are making a scramble to change the game into something that will appease an audience that can generate the income they desire.

Hardcore pvp gamers are incredibly loud so as to make it seem like there are more of them than anyone has realized and their voices should be heard. The reality, as history has shown time and time again, is that they barely quantify as a minority as there are so few of them and their toxicity alone can hurt a game more then their missing sub/cash shop purchases would.

This is a flawed argument, as PvE players are just as loud (and usually more numerous). The game was pitched as a PvP game, so your negative bias against those PvP players is unfair. There are tons and tons of PvE games, especially MMORPGs, and the majority of them fail. This is an incredibly overstaturated market, so it's not so simple as people being willing to simply "replace the PvP players" because a ton of those PvE players already have a game, still see it as a PvP game, or wonder what it has in store for them. Go read threads about New World in places heavily focused around PvE MMORPGs like massively and for everyone one person like you who wants to play the game there are 10 far louder PvEers making fun of New World (seriously, go look at some of the comments).

I was in the alpha too, if it matters, and let's just say I may or may not be still.

Right now, I'm not sure who would want to play the game. It's basically a really terrible PvE game with nothing a PvE MMORPG delivers ala standard that wasn't considered basic a decade ago. They're definitely going for the FFXIV "ship the garbage now, fix it later" approach.

Quote

he reality, as history has shown time and time again, is that they barely quantify as a minority as there are so few of them and their toxicity alone can hurt a game more then their missing sub/cash shop purchases would.

I'd question why you're even here considering this is your opinion, but I've always hated this shallow opinion too. PvE gamers are just as toxic, just in different ways. I've played my share of highly PvE-centric games (like Everquest, FFXI, original WoW) and PvE players can be just as toxic, being cruel to new players or underperforming players, forcing people to play what the guild needs instead of what they want, and general elitism. Not to mention in games like FFXI where guilds viciously competed for world spawns and used any tactic to win, even underhanded ones.

The idea that it's only "pvp" players that are toxic only reveals a shallow or inexperienced mind. There's ton of toxicity in PvE too, it's just underplayed and takes a different shape since the conflict it spawns from is indirect rather than direct like it is in PvP.

Some of the most successful and popular games in the world are PvP-only. Fortnite (and other battle royales) is a lazy example, but so are siege, League, dota, CoD, Overwatch. This again shows your ignorance; world PvP is hard to do because it requires more effort to balance and create a proper gaming experience, but hardcore PvP is as productive as it's always been, it's just when it's boxed off and lazily controlled that devs don't have an issue with it.

Open world PvP is the only facet of PvP that hasn't been developed, but to be fair, open world PvE isn't doing all that great either. There are maybe five top MMORPGs, with the vast majority of them crashing pretty hard, so the I really never understood this argument.

New World isn't going to magically succeed by virtue of joining a highly stagnant and overpopulated market with huge established competitors (WoW, FFXIV, ESO) and a long, long, LONG list of MMO corpses. 


Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nightmarian said:

Some of the most successful and popular games in the world are PvP-only. Fortnite (and other battle royales) is a lazy example, but so are siege, League, dota, CoD, Overwatch. This again shows your ignorance;

Actually, its a strawman argument on your part.

Not one of those games is a fantasy mmorpg. Trying to argue, "well hardcore pvp is successful in a completely different genre...so let me apply it here", is kind of foolish. 

Do you know what all of the games you listed do have in common?

[1] that gear (items) are gained and lost at the beginning and end of short matches and has zero personal attachment or effort to replace.

[2] time is never lost or forcibly taken from you when you want to be doing a certain activity and another player prevents you from doing so.

In FPS, BR and mobas...the player is there to play the consensual match they signed up for, in the time they allotted for it to transpire and without risk to personal items. Its completely different...and also why its successul.

Edited by Toadwart

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3 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Actually, its a strawman argument on your part.

Not one of those games is a fantasy mmorpg. Trying to argue, "well hardcore pvp is successful in a completely different genre...so let me apply it here", is kind of foolish. 

Do you know what all of the games you listed do have in common?

[1] that gear (items) are gained and lost at the beginning and end of short matches and has zero personal attachment or effort to replace.

[2] time is never lost or forcibly taken from you when you want to be doing a certain activity and another player prevents you from doing so.

In FPS, BR and mobas...the player is there to play the consensual match they signed up for, in the time they allotted for it to transpire and without risk to personal items. Its completely different...and also why its successul.

All of that is correct but that doesn’t change the fact that amazon knowingly marketed to a  hardcore pvp crowd and then changed their mind with no community communication.  That’s shady and ultimately probably better for their investment since PvE players are more abundant but nonetheless shady.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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5 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Hardcore pvp gamers are incredibly loud so as to make it seem like there are more of them than anyone has realized and their voices should be heard. The reality, as history has shown time and time again, is that they barely quantify as a minority as there are so few of them and their toxicity alone can hurt a game more then their missing sub/cash shop purchases would.

You're incredibly biased and uninformed im not even sure you're worth the trouble of my time.

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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

All of that is correct but that doesn’t change the fact that amazon knowingly marketed to a  hardcore pvp crowd and then changed their mind with no community communication.  That’s shady and ultimately probably better for their investment since PvE players are more abundant but nonetheless shady.  

It is one of the strangest game changing decisions I've seen for a while. I get their reasoning but no clue how they didn't realize the issues beforehand. Haven't been invited to any testing (if it is currently going on), but was in Alpha so not surprised they did what they did. However, the turn around time and likely lack of content doesn't sound promising. Unlike the little arena game they cancelled, probably too far invested to stop now. Get what they can to break even and move on.

At least people didn't throw potentially thousands of dollars at them to see the design change one way or another...

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8 hours ago, Nightmarian said:

I'm probably just sticking with boxed PvP experiences. Open world PvP is dead and probably will stay dead forever now. Right now I'm just waiting to see where Crowfall ends up with after its constant and seemingly endless churn of changes. I'm not especially pleased with it right now and neither friends or I are I are all that excited to play it, but since I already threw money I might as well see where it ends up.

This is where I'm at. For quality PVP or competitiveness experiences I go to small scale lobby games. I don't expect any upcoming open world PVP game to be THE game that changes it all, but one of them could turn out half decent. For me, the next Crowfall patch will paint a better picture of what's to come.

7 hours ago, Nightmarian said:

Right now, I'm not sure who would want to play the game. It's basically a really terrible PvE game with nothing a PvE MMORPG delivers ala standard that wasn't considered basic a decade ago. They're definitely going for the FFXIV "ship the garbage now, fix it later" approach.

As I mentioned in the post above, my guess is they are trying to break even at this point. Unless the new updates and future content are going to take it to another level, I don't see NW being that successful, but realistically, they don't need to be in this market. If Everquest can still keep servers open and expansions coming, a game backed by Amazon with endless money should be okay, but then again if it is that bad, they probably have no prob pulling the plug and refunding everyone.

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They are back tracking on PvP after community reaction and yesterday released this to showcase game play preview (100% skill based). I am curious how tight their hit boxes going to be.   

 

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21 hours ago, Sims said:

They are back tracking on PvP after community reaction and yesterday released this to showcase game play preview (100% skill based). I am curious how tight their hit boxes going to be.   

I am not sure how much backtracking they did. Still have open world flag for pvp and instanced lobby style sign ups for their 'pinnacle' of pvp. I think I could play if they would remove owpvp flag. 

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Even though they got rid of full loot and non-consensual pvp im still going to give it a try seeing as how its been a while since we've been treated with a non-themepark mmo.

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