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Delvare

Passive line mastery

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Ok, I am sure that this has been answered before, but how many of the passive lines can i master?  I assume you can not master like all leather, wood, forging and necro? and then still be able to master combat as well? 

Thank you in advance for getting me turned in the right direction.  I am pretty sure i have messed up my vessel and will want to start it right, when the wipe happens. 

Thanks. 

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you can master all passives with enough time.

but you can just learn 2 different paths at the same time. I guess most ppl go with combat/exploration or combat/crafting.

they are thinking about some catchup-mechanics, but no further detail on that yet.

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OK so, at some point my one vessel could master all lines and be able to craft everything on its own?  I thought they were making it so that all professions need the other to graft high lvl quality items?  I under stand that this would most likely take a LONG LONG time but i could be possible in time? 

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well you would need all the different craftinggears, jewelssets, vessels with the different needed disciplines, but yes in the end 1 account could do all the stuff. but it will get expansive to unslot the discs all the time. and it would most likely take you years of passive training.

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4 hours ago, Delvare said:

OK so, at some point my one vessel could master all lines and be able to craft everything on its own?  I thought they were making it so that all professions need the other to graft high lvl quality items?  I under stand that this would most likely take a LONG LONG time but i could be possible in time? 

Yes you could but it would take years. That's why many will have multiple accounts. A decent sized guild will be self sustaining without needing individuals playing every single option all the time.

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3 hours ago, Delvare said:

OK so, at some point my one vessel could master all lines and be able to craft everything on its own?  I thought they were making it so that all professions need the other to graft high lvl quality items?  I under stand that this would most likely take a LONG LONG time but i could be possible in time? 

Getting a little bit into details besides what Surelia already said.

Passive training is for your whole account - not for each vessel. So it benefits all characters ... if they are able to use those benefits. For example, if you skilled the passive ranged weapon skill tree, a melee character of course wouldn't be able to get these bonusses. But crafting or exploration skills benefit any character.

Usually all crafting professions at least partially depend on supplies from other crafting/harvesting professions. You will be fine if you just do some trading with other specialists. If you want to do all yourself ... it's going to be harder. And that's true for nearly everything in Crowfall. Solo ... possible ... but much harder.

The current passive skill training of the old Crows are equal to about 3 years of passive training. That's how long it will take to get into the current crafting stage again after launch. So decisions (and cooperations) will be very important.

However, that doesn't mean a lot regarding the question wether a crafter/explorer will be able to compete in fights. What matters most is your personal ability and knowledge about your chosen race/class combination/s (including how and what to equip).
While crafting and exploration may unlock certain abilities or at least provide significant bonusses to the task, the passive combat skills is only one of the steps (and I'd dare to say a quite small one) towards combat success. There are vessels, armor, weapon, disciplines, talents, lot's of stuff adding to max out fighting.

Imagine combat being something you need to enhance as fast as possible on different levels, while crafting is something you need to pursue on the long run and mostly focussed on one (or at least very few) directions.

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I agree APE just fun to think you can :)  besides lets hope we have years to achieve this.  I work long hours and i do not get to play and relax as much as other and this makes it sometimes tough to find guilds in games like this willing to take me.  

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6 hours ago, Surelia said:

you can master all passives with enough time.

but you can just learn 2 different paths at the same time. I guess most ppl go with combat/exploration or combat/crafting.

they are thinking about some catchup-mechanics, but no further detail on that yet.

I kinda wish you couldnt tbh :(

I wishthey would group passive lines and things so you could only have 1 line in each category at a time active in a campaign. So each harvesting lines are a catagory each and you can have the passive tree in both active at once kinda thing.
So if u went into a campaign you would choose if u wanted to use the logging tree or the mining tree but cant do both i feel it be an issue later on when one person can craft or harvesting everything they need ofcourse wont be an issue till say 6months down the line but i feel it be a problem eventually 


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, veeshan said:

I kinda wish you couldnt tbh :(

I wishthey would group passive lines and things so you could only have 1 line in each category at a time active in a campaign. So each harvesting lines are a catagory each and you can have the passive tree in both active at once kinda thing.
So if u went into a campaign you would choose if u wanted to use the logging tree or the mining tree but cant do both i feel it be an issue later on when one person can craft or harvesting everything they need ofcourse wont be an issue till say 6months down the line but i feel it be a problem eventually 

Not even close...   we have been at 3x training and it takes 3 months at that rate to get far into the first two skill trees, they talked of 42 years worth of passive training in all.   When  we launch it will be 1x and it will be a very long time before any single account can fulfill multiple roles.   The passive training is meant to specialize players into a few roles out of dozens besides combat.   Remember that a lot of us backers have multiple accounts, and a lot of guilds have quite a few backers so we can coordinate every training line among fewer core players.  Guilds will always need backup because people have lives though...  some of the testing periods we have passed the high end crafting armor and jewelry on to relieve burn out.  Besides the fact that eventually we can consolidate and bring all accounts to combat and a stable of various vessel builds to meet every situation.   Yet that still doesn't in any way guarantee a throne, it only admits you to the fight for one.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Not even close...   we have been at 3x training and it takes 3 months at that rate to get far into the first two skill trees, they talked of 42 years worth of passive training in all.   When  we launch it will be 1x and it will be a very long time before any single account can fulfill multiple roles.   The passive training is meant to specialize players into a few roles out of dozens besides combat.   Remember that a lot of us backers have multiple accounts, and a lot of guilds have quite a few backers so we can coordinate every training line among fewer core players.  Guilds will always need backup because people have lives though...  some of the testing periods we have passed the high end crafting armor and jewelry on to relieve burn out.  Besides the fact that eventually we can consolidate and bring all accounts to combat and a stable of various vessel builds to meet every situation.   Yet that still doesn't in any way guarantee a throne, it only admits you to the fight for one.

 

We have no idea what the speed will actually be for launch, and no idea how many skill points will be needed for each tree. You're making assumptions. The devs haven't given us any definitive answer on how it will work.

To the OP, yes, you can train everything on one account, but doing so will be the absolute least efficient way to play the game. You can also have multiple accounts and train all of the professions quicker, but the most efficient way to progress will always be by working with other players. There's a lot more to being a great crafter, harvester or combatant than just passive training. 

Edited by Arkade

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Arkade said:

We have no idea what the speed will actually be for launch, and no idea how many skill points will be needed for each tree. You're making assumptions. The devs haven't given us any definitive answer on how it will work.

To the OP, yes, you can train everything on one account, but doing so will be the absolute least efficient way to play the game. You can also have multiple accounts and train all of the professions quicker, but the most efficient way to progress will always be by working with other players. There's a lot more to being a great crafter, harvester or combatant than just passive training. 

42 years of training is a direct quote...  10x on test, 3x on Live and 1x for launch have been signaled for passive speeds many times.   Yes, it could change but that would also change the overall speed of progression base premise.   They don't change the base stat premise usually, just the ways to get there.  I make no assumptions other than that they would stick to the base figures that are unchanged since kickstarter.   You make changes here and it affects every piece of progression and thus balancing.   To fast and everyone is in end game gear in a couple months...   to slow and its a year before we see a legendary end game piece.   They have the data from the several passive skill wipes that we have had.   I don't expect any drastic change, 3x still puts people in gear beyond blue in one month, which is far too fast a progression for launch.  By commercial launch the day one folks would have too much of a head start.

Besides that, Fourty Two is the answer...

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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6 hours ago, veeshan said:

an issue later on when one person can craft or harvesting everything they need ofcourse wont be an issue till say 6months down the line but i feel it be a problem eventually 

I hope they keep adding skill lines as new content gets added too (crop farming, animal husbandry were two that were mentioned early on). I like the idea that if you stick with a game for a long time, you will have more playstyle options to explore.

 

7 hours ago, Delvare said:

I work long hours and i do not get to play and relax as much as other

This is one of the good reasons for having part of your character building be passive training, it does give you a way to stay engaged with the game and progress even during busy times. All we need now is a mobile app for our skill tree! 😁


tiPrpwh.png

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13 hours ago, Frykka said:

42 years of training is a direct quote...  10x on test, 3x on Live and 1x for launch have been signaled for passive speeds many times.   

Besides that, Fourty Two is the answer...

A direct quote from when? 3 years ago? If you go back to the recent Q&A where training time was discussed, they said they didn't know yet where it would be set. I think it was in the December or January Q&A, not sure which. 

42 is only the answer if we are asking the ultimate question. This isn't the ultimate question.

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On 3/1/2020 at 8:55 AM, Arkade said:

A direct quote from when? 3 years ago? If you go back to the recent Q&A where training time was discussed, they said they didn't know yet where it would be set. I think it was in the December or January Q&A, not sure which. 

42 is only the answer if we are asking the ultimate question. This isn't the ultimate question.

Training speed question starts at 31:00

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28 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Training speed question starts at 31:00

Yes, I heard that, which was said AFTER the comments we previously made. I still think it will end up being faster than 1x when it's live, but we'll see.

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3 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Yes, I heard that, which was said AFTER the comments we previously made. I still think it will end up being faster than 1x when it's live, but we'll see.

Yea, me too.  1x will just not be fast enough IMHO.

I don't personally think it should take a person more that 3 months to max out one skill. Sure, have piles of skills that all take 3 months, but not more than that for one.  It's not like that once you get the skills there is no effort to actually use them. 

The "best" in the game will not be based on the passive skill handouts, it will be based on the amount of work put into the profession.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't personally think it should take a person more that 3 months to max out one skill. Sure, have piles of skills that all take 3 months, but not more than that for one. 

I would like to be able to quickly master one skillset, but have it take longer and longer for each subsequent skillset.

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32 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

would like to be able to quickly master one skillset, but have it take longer and longer for each subsequent skillset.

I think they have the tech now to do something like 2X for 1 train and 1X for the second train - that would be a nice solution if the 1X only turns out to be too slow to be fun.


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Posted (edited)

Personally, I would like to see an earning Sigmoid function applied to each group based on % group trained. 

320px-Logistic-curve.svg.png

 

With a range of 10-1 and a target curve end at 50% of total.  So when you first start a section, you are earning 10 points/tick.  Once you hit 50% of the section, you end up earning only 1.

Section in this context would be something like "Combat Basics".

If you really want to specialize, then your going to have to dedicate quite a bit of 1/tick time to the section, but if you want to jack of all trades, and are clever, you can earn 10/tick for quite some time.

They could even apply a specific target curve for each section, so maybe basics don't even apply the curve, while end of the line target 20% rather than 50%. 

That would lead to tough choices, and more interesting approaches. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I would go with a diminishing return scenario, so the rate at which your points increase becomes lower the more points you have trained in that track (basically an exponentially decreasing point return, something like exp(-P/a), where P is the total number of points accumulated in the track and a is just a normalization constant). It would enable a crafter to specialize and max out a skill in a few months, but then it would take years to fully max out the tree. I did like the thing one of the devs had mentioned, which is that disicplines might unlock new talent trees instead of just conferring the bonuses, which will lead to much more specialized characters.

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