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Goonii

Implement more friendly fire please.

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Many people been asking for it, many people want to break up current meta of pvp games that rely to heavily on boring zerg mechanics.

ideas....

1) all siege equipment should be dumb equipment. A ballista or what not should never distinguish between friend or foe and damage everyone equally.

2) all AOE abilities should effect everyone. This won't be a popular idea. To balance the care bear zerg guilds.... maybe add diminishing returns vs friendlies. So an AOE hits enemies full intended effect, but splash damage to friendlies is 25% or 50% damage.

 

just a couple thoughts to help CF separate itself from every PVP game before it that turns into zerg v zerg game.

 

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Posted (edited)

Friendly fire unfortunately in the faction set up doesn't realy work since you will get people on your own faction "accidently hitting you" aka faction spies however in dregs or shadows i dont see why it cant be a thing. some skill will need to be changed a little to accomodate friendly fire holyfire for example dmg enemy heal allies, is it now gonna dmg allies and heal them at same time now for example.

Tbh i think they need to remove aoe caps its stupid there not there inherantly the counter to zergs however nthere capped at 5 targets, where form my understanind aoe heals are not atleast paladin ones didnt seem to have a cap for healing targets atleast last time i played.

I will say they 100% they need to reduce the incentive of zerging in some way, aoe are one way artificially weaking people with more player close by is another like a 5% stat reduction debuff for every 10 allies within a parcel.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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2 minutes ago, veeshan said:

Friendly fire unfortunately in the faction set up doesn't realy work since you will get people on your own faction "accidently hitting you" aka faction spies however in dregs or shadows i dont see why it cant be a thing. some skill will need to be changed a little to accomodate friendly fire holyfire for example dmg enemy heal allies, is it now gonna dmg allies and heal them at same time now for example.

Tbh i think they need to remove aoe caps its stupid there not there inherantly the counter to zergs however nthere capped at 5 targets, where form my understanind aoe heals are not atleast paladin ones didnt seem to have a cap for healing targets atleast last time i played.

accidently hitting,... I get that, but implement it and people will make it work or work around it. Either thru com's or other communication it can be worked around. There will always be random asshats that try and spoil things with no "flag up to kill someone" mechanic.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Goonii said:

accidently hitting,... I get that, but implement it and people will make it work or work around it. Either thru com's or other communication it can be worked around. There will always be random asshats that try and spoil things with no "flag up to kill someone" mechanic.

 

accidently hitting was sarcasm doesnt come though well in text, what i realy mean is spies going ohh look somone almost dead in the back line i think i might just kill him real quick so my faction im spying for win this fight.
if they add punishment for PKing ally faction u then run into the problem of i know this guy is a spy i know he will kill somone low HP but if i attack him first im gonna be penalised.
That being said the dregs/shadows which is the next stage up from what we have in reward should have friendly fire imo or atleast some with that ruleset

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Posted (edited)

you will also run into a situation where greenies will be killing other green player harvesters for there goodies cause free loot :P

Darkfall for example had this and allied races would kill newbies and harvester for free loot which caused alot of people to quit which didnt help the game population problem :P

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Yup, need or least I would like, this game take a step towards distinguishing itself from every PVP MMO before it by adding some friendly fire. Otherwise it's just a copy of DAOC, SWTOR, Warhammer Online, BDO, I think I missed several other games.....

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The game is pretty much a casual version of darkfall which ended up failing cause it was to hardcore pvp orinated and ended up bleeing it pve/new player population which ended up leading to not enough player for some pvp player wehich stop and that just bleed more and more which was what inevitable cause the fall of darkfall. the slow development cycle didnt help either.

However friendly fire to X% hp could work if you could friendly fire people down to say 25% hp it might work cause it stops people killing random allied harvesters and spies killing low hp targets in castle fights however it gonna allow for spies to put people to 25% hp in fights and not be klillable back :P


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Just now, Staff said:

just uncap dmg aoes and raise heal aoes to like 8 or something to compensate, friendly fire isnt needed nor will it save you 

Agree, ive played game with friendly fire and people always exploit it in some way no matter how you try and do it (If it does get implemented it has to only be dregs and there GvG campaigns not faction ones that we have now.
AoE cap 100% needs to be removed atleast even just for testing how it works in one campaign to see if it an improvment over current rulesets.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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14 hours ago, veeshan said:

The game is pretty much a casual version of darkfall which ended up failing cause it was to hardcore pvp orinated and ended up bleeing it pve/new player population which ended up leading to not enough player for some pvp player wehich stop and that just bleed more and more which was what inevitable cause the fall of darkfall. the slow development cycle didnt help either.

However friendly fire to X% hp could work if you could friendly fire people down to say 25% hp it might work cause it stops people killing random allied harvesters and spies killing low hp targets in castle fights however it gonna allow for spies to put people to 25% hp in fights and not be klillable back :P

I disagree that the game is like darkfall. Its more like firefall. While yes Darkfall had a steep learning curve it didn't have mechanics in play that provided tools and need to protect newer players. As is crowfall is just gonna flop hard; the combat is the selling point and it is just bad. Friendly fire would help it better but a penalty for tking would need to be introduced so griefers can't ruin the game. I want reiterate that the combat in this game is terrible(Not anywhere near as good as Darkfall) and that is not a good sign if that is the sole focus your game is promoting.

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Posted (edited)

I hate to break it to you, but friendly fire existing won't suddenly make everyone show up in tight formations and do a headcount to ensure a fair contest before every fight.

You're still going to lose fight to "zergs" because you were unwilling or unable to raise an army sufficient to combat them no matter how much you attempt to change the rules to avoid competing with the eternally optimal strategy of overwhelming opponents by sheer force of numbers.

You'll just also hit your friends while flailing around and getting stomped in to the ground by that overwhelming force while they easily res their fallen.

Crowfall is designed around the reality that every open world pvp game is a zerg v zerg game, no matter what you do to avoid it. The moment the first zerg forms, congrats, you're in the endgame now. Form/join a counter zerg or die. This is inevitable in any system which allows an essentially unlimited amount of players to take hostile action against each other on the same server.

The reason campaigns end is to keep a winning zerg from forcing everyone to exist eternally in an unwinnable police state by resetting their "home field advantage" and encourage those zergs to break up before they form in new and interesting patterns again in an eternal cycle of you losing the game because you can't be bothered to play it like you actually want to win.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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11 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

I hate to break it to you, but friendly fire existing won't suddenly make everyone show up in tight formations and do a headcount to ensure a fair contest before every fight.

You're still going to lose fight to "zergs" because you were unwilling or unable to raise an army sufficient to combat them no matter how much you attempt to change the rules to avoid competing with the eternally optimal strategy of overwhelming opponents by sheer force of numbers.

You'll just also hit your friends while flailing around and getting stomped in to the ground by that overwhelming force while they easily res their fallen.

Crowfall is designed around the reality that every open world pvp game is a zerg v zerg game, no matter what you do to avoid it. The moment the first zerg forms, congrats, you're in the endgame now. Form/join a counter zerg or die. This is inevitable in any system which allows an essentially unlimited amount of players to take hostile action against each other on the same server.

The reason campaigns end is to keep a winning zerg from forcing everyone to exist eternally in an unwinnable police state by resetting their "home field advantage" and encourage those zergs to break up before they form in new and interesting patterns again in an eternal cycle of you losing the game because you can't be bothered to play it like you actually want to win.

That is why the game needs to force smaller excursions and have limited populace zones. Zerg vs zerg gameplay always gets stale. The only game that did it right was Darkfall online because player skill could mean the difference between winning outnumbered 2:1 and just blobbing until everything is dead.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, IsilithTehroth said:

That is why the game needs to force smaller excursions and have limited populace zones. Zerg vs zerg gameplay always gets stale. The only game that did it right was Darkfall online because player skill could mean the difference between winning outnumbered 2:1 and just blobbing until everything is dead.

Are you implying Darkfall didn't adjust to that balance by just creating more efficient 3:1 and 4:1 zergs?

Are you implying that somehow having less people means you're better at a given game, or that the zerg you're fighting doesn't have just as many people just as good as you in it, with the added bonus of cannon fodder?

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are two kinds of PvP games. Open world games that encourage and reward forming zergs, and arena games that limit teams to small sporting contests.

Your PvP environment literally can not be both, and crowfall is the first type of game.

If you don't want to participate in massive armies, I question why you're playing a game about forming massive armies and not a game about highly tactical small force engagements among even numbers of players.

Edited by PopeUrban

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3 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Are you implying Darkfall didn't adjust to that balance by just creating more efficient 3:1 and 4:1 zergs?

Are you implying that somehow having less people means you're better at a given game, or that the zerg you're fighting doesn't have just as many people just as good as you in it, with the added bonus of cannon fodder?

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are two kinds of PvP games. Open world games that encourage and reward forming zergs, and arena games that limit teams to small sporting contests.

Your PvP environment literally can not be both, and crowfall is the first type of game.

If you don't want to participate in massive armies, I question why you're playing a game about forming massive armies and not a game about highly tactical small force engagements among even numbers of players.

Why can't it be both? Why do we keep allowing game company after game company to be lazy and dictate biggest zerg wins? We also have every PVP game before this one showing massive battles fail utterly due to lag and eventually people stop playing cause of the lag.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Goonii said:

Why can't it be both?

Because they're mutually exclusive designs and this prevents them from sharing the same space. Either you have a spave in which players can form massive armies and zerg, or you have an environment where players are on limited arranged teams. You can have both environments in the same GAME, but not in the same SPACE within that game. They are literally incompatible designs. It has nothing to do with laziness.

This game was founded, day one, on being the first kind of game. That has never changed. It was marketed on the back of the creative director's previous game that was also that kind of game.

Furthermore, why does the team who sucks at recruiting, logistics, and basically every part of the game that isn't swinging a sword deserve a handicap? You showed up to play a game, you were bad at that game, and in stead of adjusting your behavior or finding a game that is a better fit for your talents you demand the game change to accommodate you because you DESERVE a chance at winning despite not having taken any of the steps required to win.

The game does not need to change to accommodate your ego. Your ego needs to take a back seat to the reality of both simulated and real warfare: Numbers is the first measure of force strength, and all else is a modifier on that number. Force multipliers are not force in and of themselves, and they scale just as well for the zerg as they do for you.

Edited by PopeUrban

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LOL its not ego. Back to original topic game could use little more friendly fire. Siege weapons for sure should be dumb fire, hits anyone and everyone in radius. My guild does often prevail when out numbered.

Not a matter of sucks at recruiting, logistics.....any guild can guild every tom hooligan and harry form the largest in numbers. 

Crowfall can claim first kind of game.... I can also write my own bible claiming im the messiah and I died and rose from the dead. Simple matter of fact CF has yet to demonstrate their PVP will be above all other PVP army/group PVP games before them. That said im stilling have fun. :)

Also waiting on Dregs, to see those mechanics, hope it answers a lot of concerns for many of us that have come from many other PVP battle games. :)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Goonii said:

LOL its not ego. Back to original topic game could use little more friendly fire. Siege weapons for sure should be dumb fire, hits anyone and everyone in radius. My guild does often prevail when out numbered.

Not a matter of sucks at recruiting, logistics.....any guild can guild every tom hooligan and harry form the largest in numbers. 

Crowfall can claim first kind of game.... I can also write my own bible claiming im the messiah and I died and rose from the dead. Simple matter of fact CF has yet to demonstrate their PVP will be above all other PVP army/group PVP games before them. That said im stilling have fun. :)

Also waiting on Dregs, to see those mechanics, hope it answers a lot of concerns for many of us that have come from many other PVP battle games. :)

 

 

I can agree with some of your points here. Elevated friendly fire in some campaigns may be more interesting. I think your primary reasoning for wanting it to be so as it is both factually inaccurate and questionably intentioned. The fact that this is about "zerging" for you tells me a lot about where you're coming from and how happy you'll be with the result.

 

I've been around these kinds of games for over 20 years at this point and there is a golden rule that applies universally:

Winners never complain about zerging because they're either so good the zerg doesn't matter, or they're the zerg.

I can freely admit that I suck, that zerging is a winning strategy that transcends time and game, and that these two things have no relationship.

You, on the other hand are convinced you don't suck and zergs only win against you because they're not playing by rules you invented that never actually existed.

If that's not a pretty extreme expression of ego I don't know what is.

 

Crowfall never claimed to be "the best" PvP game because that's a highly subjective opinion based upon the player. It claimed to be a throne war. You can win. Featuring giant armies, player industry, and player politics. You can play it. You don't need to take it on faith like its some ridiculous claim about you turning loaves in to fish. If it wasn't you wouldn't have made this thread, right?


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I hate to break it to you, but friendly fire existing won't suddenly make everyone show up in tight formations and do a headcount to ensure a fair contest before every fight.

You're still going to lose fight to "zergs" because you were unwilling or unable to raise an army sufficient to combat them no matter how much you attempt to change the rules to avoid competing with the eternally optimal strategy of overwhelming opponents by sheer force of numbers.

You'll just also hit your friends while flailing around and getting stomped in to the ground by that overwhelming force while they easily res their fallen.

Crowfall is designed around the reality that every open world pvp game is a zerg v zerg game, no matter what you do to avoid it. The moment the first zerg forms, congrats, you're in the endgame now. Form/join a counter zerg or die. This is inevitable in any system which allows an essentially unlimited amount of players to take hostile action against each other on the same server.

The reason campaigns end is to keep a winning zerg from forcing everyone to exist eternally in an unwinnable police state by resetting their "home field advantage" and encourage those zergs to break up before they form in new and interesting patterns again in an eternal cycle of you losing the game because you can't be bothered to play it like you actually want to win.

This sermon dear Pope has won my heart to your cause, I kiss your ring, and touch my brow to your red shoes. Your enemies are now my enemies, and  I will strike them with sword and flame where ever I shall find them. Let those infidels that claim Darkfall as the one true game, die beneath the hooves of my pack pig.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Staff said:

just uncap dmg aoes and raise heal aoes to like 8 or something to compensate, friendly fire isnt needed nor will it save you 

That would help but if people can run and gun almost nonstop it'll just turn into GW2 style roving zergs where they throw down AoEs and dodge out of them a second later as the zerg just keeps moving. It's stupid to watch and even stupider to participate in, and that game doesn't even have healers. Granted I'm glad we have healers here, but less mobility during combat and collision between friendlies in combat/not in towns are the sorts of things that typically make AoEs more impactful and help force people away from each other. I know they made an attempt at the former in an earlier iteration of combat, but the point still stands.

Edited by Leiloni

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22 hours ago, Goonii said:

Many people been asking for it, many people want to break up current meta of pvp games that rely to heavily on boring zerg mechanics.

ideas....

1) all siege equipment should be dumb equipment. A ballista or what not should never distinguish between friend or foe and damage everyone equally.

2) all AOE abilities should effect everyone. This won't be a popular idea. To balance the care bear zerg guilds.... maybe add diminishing returns vs friendlies. So an AOE hits enemies full intended effect, but splash damage to friendlies is 25% or 50% damage.

 

just a couple thoughts to help CF separate itself from every PVP game before it that turns into zerg v zerg game.

 

Yes, yes, I know friendly fire Crowfall. We did it, check. We still won the majority of engagements, check. Go back to friendly fire we will still win, check. 

We have fought engagements seriously outnumbered where the opposing faction filled the zone to level cap two hours before siege, and we beat their Zerg without FF. The combat in Crowfall is solid.  

Several Campaign worlds where run under FF rule-set prior to siege mechanics. It wasn't a big deal, it wasn't a game changer. If your group has coordination and communication the available powers right now, will break numbers, if used right.  

There will be FF campaign world's in the Dregs band, JTodd said so, many times. Play those campaigns and have fun, but if you can't stand toe to toe with us in open field...  having 2X's ballista fire on your forces (ours and yours) ain't gonna help you win.

One beats the Zerg with diplomacy, lies, and propaganda.

I applaud your efforts to make Crowfall a better game and your ideas are not without merit if one just wants to play that type of rule-sets because one enjoys it, but FF is not a remedy for the state of Crowfall sieges.

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