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Sophia_Scarlett

Alchemy & Economy

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I just wanted to toss out an idea I had floating around my head and see what others think about it. I know a lot of people feel that vendors should be able to use dust as currency and also that alchemy needs some love. This idea is hopefully something that would help with both of these problems.

In the current iteration of the game very few goods are sold via vendors because the currency that vendors deal in is gold. Now the difficulty here is that the usefulness/need for gold is far outweighed by the usefulness/need for chaos embers. Given this I feel that a possible solution to both give gold value and make alchemy more useful would be to add a transmutation that turns gold into Ethereal Dust/Chaos Embers. The gold cost of such a transmutation could be very high even something like 25k gold for 1 chaos ember. Now at first this may seem absolutely absurd but what if we linked alchemy skill to this transmutation? Admittedly I know next to nothing about game design and how difficult this would be but what if a players skill in alchemy could increase their yield from the transmutation? So maybe an unskilled alchemist gets 1 chaos ember from the 25k gold transmutation but a master alchemist might get 5 chaos embers from the same transmutation. I don’t know if it would be possible to say certain % success increases give certain amounts of chaos embers. Something like 1 chaos ember in the 0-30 range, 2 chaos embers in the 31-60 range, 3 chaos embers in the 61-90 range, 4 in the 90-120 range and then finally 5 at the 120.80% max. Again I’m not sure if this is something that would be feasible or worth the time but I wanted to throw the idea out there and see what people thought.

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I quite honestly don´t like transmuting gold into Dust vice versa, being possible. They both serve their own purpose as different currencies, which have to be obtained differently (PvE=Gold/Gathering=Dust). Because they aren’t convertible, PvE and Gather are needed and not optional.

The same goes for the Chaos Ember but at the same time I think there is more room to argue here. For example if you would need both gold and dust to transmute it into chaos ember. This would also serve as an item sink ^^

As far as I know using Dust as a vendor currency was also a plan, but i don´t know if this is still the case.

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1 hour ago, Tesmin said:

I quite honestly don´t like transmuting gold into Dust vice versa, being possible. They both serve their own purpose as different currencies, which have to be obtained differently (PvE=Gold/Gathering=Dust). Because they aren’t convertible, PvE and Gather are needed and not optional.

 

 

The same goes for the Chaos Ember but at the same time I think there is more room to argue here. For example if you would need both gold and dust to transmute it into chaos ember. This would also serve as an item sink ^^

 

 

As far as I know using Dust as a vendor currency was also a plan, but i don´t know if this is still the case.

 

The problem is gold realy serves no purpose though. No one realy want to sell anything of worth for gold its always for chaos embers.


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On 3/16/2020 at 12:05 AM, Sophia_Scarlett said:

I just wanted to toss out an idea I had floating around my head and see what others think about it. I know a lot of people feel that vendors should be able to use dust as currency and also that alchemy needs some love. This idea is hopefully something that would help with both of these problems.

In the current iteration of the game very few goods are sold via vendors because the currency that vendors deal in is gold. Now the difficulty here is that the usefulness/need for gold is far outweighed by the usefulness/need for chaos embers. Given this I feel that a possible solution to both give gold value and make alchemy more useful would be to add a transmutation that turns gold into Ethereal Dust/Chaos Embers. The gold cost of such a transmutation could be very high even something like 25k gold for 1 chaos ember. Now at first this may seem absolutely absurd but what if we linked alchemy skill to this transmutation? Admittedly I know next to nothing about game design and how difficult this would be but what if a players skill in alchemy could increase their yield from the transmutation? So maybe an unskilled alchemist gets 1 chaos ember from the 25k gold transmutation but a master alchemist might get 5 chaos embers from the same transmutation. I don’t know if it would be possible to say certain % success increases give certain amounts of chaos embers. Something like 1 chaos ember in the 0-30 range, 2 chaos embers in the 31-60 range, 3 chaos embers in the 61-90 range, 4 in the 90-120 range and then finally 5 at the 120.80% max. Again I’m not sure if this is something that would be feasible or worth the time but I wanted to throw the idea out there and see what people thought.

While I like the idea, and the idea of giving alchemy more ways to be interesting, I feel like it's something that could easily have too much of an impact on economy. Right now the price of things is kind of natural, but adding a baseline value through alchemy to dust and CE could potentially impact value of items through artificial means.
I think the simplest solution would be to have vendors have a gold price, dust price, ember price, or all.
In addition to this, if factories work off gold instead of dust (pretty sure dust was going to be the fuel for factories early on) then it could bump up the value of gold by giving it another proper sink (after they nerfed gold sac value).

Anyway, I'm no economist and this is pure speculation.


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Posted (edited)

The issue is no matter how bad the conversion rate is all gold will be transmuted as long as that's the only worthwhile use for gold. 

I've heard there is a new unknown method for earning score in the new campaigns and it's based on multiple measures. I'm hoping one of those measures is just saccing anything of value at an altar and you get some kind of point equal to the level one XP it grants even if it grants you no XP at your actual level.

That would be a great way to circulate unneeded items out of the economy, including gold. If you implemented the two mechanics side-by-side then transmutation would be WAY less likely to break the dust economy as there would be another viable use for gold.

But to balance that mechanic gold itself would likely need to be made no-import even for import campaigns. Which honestly whats the downside to doing that? Why do you need gold in a campaign other than to break a campaign if a mechanic like that were implemented?

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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17 hours ago, veeshan said:

The problem is gold realy serves no purpose though. No one realy want to sell anything of worth for gold its always for chaos embers.

Nobody yet knows what purpose gold serves in 5.11.

We know ACE played with the guards in the camps as a gold sink with them costing gold to spawn, so perhaps gold drives the building war engine along with the caravans. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't care for the idea of baked in transmutation as a fix for gold being useless. If the problem is that gold has no value, the solution is to fix gold.

Once that's done, players will be able to convert between gold, dust & embers via player vendors.

Edited by VaMei

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Posted (edited)

Or we could add a non-optional gold sink that doesn't also result in a profit.

Something like SB style item repairs where you lose max durability, making refining cost gold to get those sweet mods, or having identifying dropped magic items cost gold.

The primary problem with gold is that its easy to get, but hard to spend. Make gold easier/necessary to spend for all players and you'll see gold being valued the same way dust and embers are valued. In order to make people spend it you have to have a system they can't literally skip. People want dust and embers because they're required to craft everything. People only really want gold to run vendors, and most players don't utilize vendors to get or distribute gear. They added some gold sinks to crafting, but it doesn't really address the problem as those sinks are too cheap, and if you made them more expensive they'd make crafting too grindy when combined with all its other costs.

Edited by PopeUrban

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4 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Or we could add a non-optional gold sink that doesn't also result in a profit.

Something like SB style item repairs where you lose max durability, making refining cost gold to get those sweet mods, or having identifying dropped magic items cost gold.

The primary problem with gold is that its easy to get, but hard to spend. Make gold easier/necessary to spend for all players and you'll see gold being valued the same way dust and embers are valued. In order to make people spend it you have to have a system they can't literally skip. People want dust and embers because they're required to craft everything. People only really want gold to run vendors, and most players don't utilize vendors to get or distribute gear. They added some gold sinks to crafting, but it doesn't really address the problem as those sinks are too cheap, and if you made them more expensive they'd make crafting too grindy when combined with all its other costs.

I was always down with mabinogi repair system, which sound similiar to SB where you had a chance to loose Max durabiliy each time you repair, also means u can greatly reduce durability on gear so you have that repair gold sink and the need to replace gear when it gets to low.

Gold roulette wheel sacrafice x amount of gold to the gods and get some item back as reward might be kinda poorly made dergs or it might be 5 embers for example. Or you can add a sacrafice reward trace where saraficing xamount of gold will unlock a reward which chains onto anther one these can be cosmetic rewards or resources for example.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, veeshan said:

I was always down with mabinogi repair system, which sound similiar to SB where you had a chance to loose Max durabiliy each time you repair, also means u can greatly reduce durability on gear so you have that repair gold sink and the need to replace gear when it gets to low.

Gold roulette wheel sacrafice x amount of gold to the gods and get some item back as reward might be kinda poorly made dergs or it might be 5 embers for example. Or you can add a sacrafice reward trace where saraficing xamount of gold will unlock a reward which chains onto anther one these can be cosmetic rewards or resources for example.

So I posted this a while back in the Dev partners forum in a discussion about gold. Its relevant to this discussion so I guess i'll repost. This was part of a much larger (and rather old) thread about the economy (mob farming, gold sinks, the removal of gold sacrificing, etc.) so I'll just post the bit about repairs.

Basically the idea is to have flat durability, a shadowbane style repair system, and allow a stat called "workmanship" so that crafters can remain in the loop and have various markets other than "make the best thing with the best crafter"

On 5/1/2019 at 11:33 PM, PopeUrban said:
  • Gold needs a universal sink that makes it valuable to everyone, and surplus sufficient that the sinks don't consume all of it.

Running a vendor is a choice. Buying a guard is a choice. Buying items from another player is a choice. Breaking items by mob farming is not a choice. Every mob farmer needs not one but multiple crafters worth of replacement items, That means he needs to make enough money off of selling me his belt slots and scrolls to buy my items, but items from a number of other crafters as well. A ranger farming for awls can't simply offer the value of an awl to me. He needs to also make the value of all of the leather and metal in the armor I make, as well as the guy that makes his bow, and the guy that makes his swords. For a gold market to emerge this means that spending gold on mob farming is not an option. It is a necessity that competes with any other possible use for gold. Currently the value of that farm is unpredictable and unreliable.

Currency should be something that gives me options, not something that constrains them. The sacrifice value of gold was what gave gold value. Every player doesn't need to run a vendor. Every player doesn't need to buy a guard. Every player needs xp, at least until they don't. This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I fully support limiting the utility of gold for xp because its unsustainable for giving gold value in the long term. The moment people are done leveling, they no longer have any need for gold, and thus no need to sell items for gold. We saw this in previous patches.

You built this sink masterfully in shadowbane. The repair system created a constant need for gold for every single player. That can work here as well.

Make durability on items a flat value, say 500, and change the durability stat to 'workmanship' and have those legendary stoneborne shapers in temples repair items for gold. All items. Have those items lose maximum durability every time they are repaired so that they need to be replaced eventually and crafters stay in business. Workmanship is a stat that simply expresses "how much gold per point of durability does this thing cost to repair"

Crafters can now experiment on or recieve thrall or belt slot or training or disc buffs to workmanship so in stead of creating an item that simply lasts longer, they're creating an item that's more cost effective for the end user, because all end users need to repair items, and thus all end users have a need for gold. This makes workmanship a MUCH more compelling point spend than durability because you can now specifically address the market of gold farmers and newbies in a way that is immediately useful rather than only useful over an extremely long term of several broken items. Its also a much easier to understand "mark of quality" for crafters that have tons of extra experiment points on low tier items to devote to it. A middling crafter might make a maxed out white sword, but a skilled crafter can make the same white sword that actually allows the guy farming gold with it to spend less on repairs so he has more gold to spend on an upgrade for that sword by the time it becomes unrepairable.

This also allows you to give crafters the option of taking a penalty to workmanship to offset experimentation of assembly difficulties, allowing lesser crafters to create more competitive items at the cost of those items being less marketable. Its another way for people to reach caps.

Now just make sure your mobs drop enough gold to offset the gold cost of gear degredation from fighting them. You can figure this out by averaging player metrics for a very brief period and just seeing how long players on average spend in combat with a given mob to kill it. That gives you the total durability loss, which gives you the base gold cost at average workmanship.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 3/15/2020 at 7:05 AM, Sophia_Scarlett said:

Given this I feel that a possible solution to both give gold value and make alchemy more useful would be to add a transmutation that turns gold into Ethereal Dust/Chaos Embers.

Worth considering if post  5.110 we still need more of a gold sink. The nice thing about this idea is it's simple and the recipe could be adjusted later for balance reasons if needed.


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Posted (edited)

I like a lot this idea but i think those kind of things should be under cooldown because if not there will be a huge diference on money maker beetwen profesions.

Basically it would turn alchemyst to a crowfall national bank. 

If people is demanding gold to transmutate they will sell gold. People want dust for other stuff, they will sell dust. what ever you need. alchemist will always take so high profit of it. its like a national bank. people is demanding gold to transmutate so they sell people want dust for other stuff they sell what ever you need alchemist would be like a national bank. 

Mientras no haya niveles y no haya diferentes cualidades de "oro", significa que necesitará un enfriamiento obvio.

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

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More use for gold...

On 3/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, PopeUrban said:

Make durability on items a flat value, say 500, and change the durability stat to 'workmanship' and have those legendary stoneborne shapers in temples repair items for gold. All items. Have those items lose maximum durability every time they are repaired so that they need to be replaced eventually and crafters stay in business. Workmanship is a stat that simply expresses "how much gold per point of durability does this thing cost to repair"

This could work, but not from an NPC vendor. This should be a player vendor that repairs THAT players crafted wares, just to make it interesting Taxes that apply go to campaign win "Pot" of gold. For the winner and from the Guild vault 100k gold can then be transferred to 1 Crown to the guild wallet (example). Total Gold in a guilds vault could also be a part of the scoring system, giving bragging rights to who has the most "wealth" on hand. In the end, we'll just have to sit back and see what they come up with.

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On 4/1/2020 at 6:40 PM, Azerlin said:

More use for gold...

This could work, but not from an NPC vendor. This should be a player vendor that repairs THAT players crafted wares, just to make it interesting Taxes that apply go to campaign win "Pot" of gold. For the winner and from the Guild vault 100k gold can then be transferred to 1 Crown to the guild wallet (example). Total Gold in a guilds vault could also be a part of the scoring system, giving bragging rights to who has the most "wealth" on hand. In the end, we'll just have to sit back and see what they come up with.

You now have a system in which you may completely lose the ability to repair items in a durability system designed for their longevity to be reliant on repairs. Player-centric repair systems, in general, are a giant pain in the ass to use, which is why I contrived this as a response to those implementations. Same deal with the sale of repair kits, those sorts of things move the core focus of the crafting professions away from items and to consumables, placing the crafters in an uncomfortable position of needing to prioritize time and resources on two competing products. Requiring the crafter to spend resources/taxes/upkeep/whatever on repairing also means less equippable items in the economy as they can't leverage those resources to buy raw materials, put up more item vendors, or in a repair kit implementation, simply have to make less or worse items.

NPC repair systems, on the other hand, keep the focus of crafting on crafting while serving as a reasonable economic gold sink to combat the inflation that tends to plague MMO economies, where currency is infinitely generated from nothing.

Nn general, needing to rely on a player interaction for repeatable "essential services" is a generally shaky design simply because you can not rely those players to be present. Players crafting and  selling items works because they're a one time transaction. You lose/break that item, and the market is functioning properly, there are many other players around, many other vendors around, or if you're in a real pinch, go loot a mob.

Walled markets like "only I can repair item I make" remove competitive pressures and in general aren't a good idea for any economy designed to encourage competition.


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