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McTan

The feel of combat

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remains super flighty and loose. Maybe it's just personal opinion, but there just has been something off about the weight of movements for so long. It feels identically as strange as it did five years ago. My champ is leaping around and smashing a hammer and elbow-dropping guineapigs to death, but it doesn't feel like my character actually interacts with anything. I elbow drop the ground and then the guineas just fall over. It's feels really bizarre to me, and I am posting to see what others think.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I posted in the feedback thread about how combat still feels too floaty.  I have a hard time explaining what I mean, but it doesn't feel grounded at all.  Characters and mobs slide off each other, and it feels like we're skating.  Attacks have no real impact compared to other games in the genre.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

I posted in the feedback thread about how combat still feels too floaty.  I have a hard time explaining what I mean, but it doesn't feel grounded at all.  Characters and mobs slide off each other, and it feels like we're skating.  Attacks have no real impact compared to other games in the genre.

Yeah, agreed. And I think that their historical response to this issue has been making things like hit-boxes and cones and rays be a lot wider, because the movement is imprecise, but that actually compounds the looseness of the combat.

In other games, and other MMOs, I don't have nearly as much trouble getting my character to start moving in the direction I want and stop moving at the position I want. Been like that since Hunger Dome. In 2016, I thought "oh, this is because they are trying to do physics, that's kind of neat," but then they backed off that completely, yet the feeling persists in 2020, and it's troubling.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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What's hard for me is not knowing what is a bug, optimization issue, my PC performance, design, etc.

There's things like Guineceans sliding around when attacking where their little legs don't move that I assume will be fixed at some point.

Then there's the wonky hitbox/hit indicators that seems like multiple issues in one. Same visual regardless if I hit someone or not, a hit is registered pretty much anywhere near a target with the visual being a foot above/behind/to the side of them. Haven't bothered testing much as I know these things have been reported, but they still persist so can/will it be fixed or is it design?

Beauty of Tab Target is that you select a target, attack them, and it hits smack in the center. Crowfall's pseudo "aim" with cones, raycasts, large? hit boxes, poor collision, off center targeting, and zoomed in POV makes it all just off for me. This being cleaned up would go a long way for me. 

Really hope we get a customizable UI at some point. Most dmg/heal numbers are noise more then useful for me. They just spit out all over the place. Would like them to be static or flow better along with being better indicators if I'm doing good/bad. In other games when I land a large attack, I know it and it is satisfying. Status effects like "Knocked Down" are what I'd like the numbers to be like, not as large, but actually useful and not clutter. If I'm not supposed to focus on the numbers, then remove then why are they all over the place?

Combat as a whole is very fast paced and too many powers are instant or so quick that any visual is lost in the chaos. When I can't tell what I or others are doing, it becomes meaningless. Just hit the buttons to hope the enemy (any enemy) health bar goes down. This adds to the "floating" experience for me. I'm just mashing away try to stick n move, even though my hit box is probably the size of an elephant. This is a problem with most game once too many get on the screen, but for Crowfall it seems to happen with fewer then usual.

I know they have plenty to work on, but Combat is a huge feature that I hope hasn't reached the "good enough" point. I'd rather they tighten up targeting and rely more on soft lock and raycasts then go with the lacking free aim system. Optimization will likely help a lot, but if/when that happens is to be seen.

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I hope after the release of 5.11 they focus on the combat, cause is the main aspect of the game. If it doesnt get a smooth Combat system before we go to beta then i see many problems with the future of the game. 

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10 hours ago, McTan said:

In other games, and other MMOs, I don't have nearly as much trouble getting my character to start moving in the direction I want and stop moving at the position I want. Been like that since Hunger Dome. In 2016, I thought "oh, this is because they are trying to do physics, that's kind of neat," but then they backed off that completely, yet the feeling persists in 2020, and it's troubling.

Well all calculation are server side, so how many ping do you have ?
Because i have this feeling from time to time when i get a lot of ping :(

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3 hours ago, Gzas said:

I hope after the release of 5.11 they focus on the combat, cause is the main aspect of the game. If it doesnt get a smooth Combat system before we go to beta then i see many problems with the future of the game. 

The time to focus on combat systems has came and went. No amount of hoping will change that.

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I hope they are paying attention to this. SotA is having a tough time keeping enough interest and has the same floaty and non-impactful combat feeling. This is the core activity. If it is not fun, well, we won't have enough people to fight.

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The combats have 5 majors issues ( for me ) in the 5.100 :

  • Melee class cannot hit properly distance class
  • many skill have no return feeling when you hit
  • you can afk in aoe with one healer
  • combat 5v5 are long and frustrating
  • skill cap for healing class are pretty low ( druid and cleric )
    druid heal have no more mechanic as you are always low in spirit and dont have to move to the fight
    cleric have no mana issue, you just have to think about your zones

modification in the 5.110 :

  1. i can say if it's fixed because i dont play much melee and we have no pvp for now in 5.110
  2. it's better, some skill have been improved, i think it's more an animation problem than a core mechanic issue
  3. the frostweaver aoe dps is much better and force people to move out, so it's way much better
  4. no much test from myself
  5. frostweaver heal have an interresting skillcap ( you can loose 25% of you heal if you dont pay attention and dont auto attack )

so it's better and cant wait for the refactoring of all the class

 

 

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This is the product of CF listening to the wrong crowd when the game was in its earliest testing. 

The game had a really impactful feeling combat system back in Hunger Dome. But they changed it to this super floaty, no animation lock system we have now. CF also has an extremely low skill ceiling so you don't feel like you are doing anything significant because of it. I don't think there is much we can hope for this late in their development. I've been an advocate of changing the combat system to a more skillbased system than we have now, but what do I know. 

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On 3/29/2020 at 5:54 AM, Aedius said:

The combats have 5 majors issues ( for me ) in the 5.100 :

  • Melee class cannot hit properly distance class
  • many skill have no return feeling when you hit
  • you can afk in aoe with one healer
  • combat 5v5 are long and frustrating
  • skill cap for healing class are pretty low ( druid and cleric )
    druid heal have no more mechanic as you are always low in spirit and dont have to move to the fight
    cleric have no mana issue, you just have to think about your zones

modification in the 5.110 :

  1. i can say if it's fixed because i dont play much melee and we have no pvp for now in 5.110
  2. it's better, some skill have been improved, i think it's more an animation problem than a core mechanic issue
  3. the frostweaver aoe dps is much better and force people to move out, so it's way much better
  4. no much test from myself
  5. frostweaver heal have an interresting skillcap ( you can loose 25% of you heal if you dont pay attention and dont auto attack )

so it's better and cant wait for the refactoring of all the class

 

 

combat in 5.110


hoayaga2.jpg

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1 hour ago, Vunak said:

This is the product of CF listening to the wrong crowd when the game was in its earliest testing. 

The game had a really impactful feeling combat system back in Hunger Dome. But they changed it to this super floaty, no animation lock system we have now. CF also has an extremely low skill ceiling so you don't feel like you are doing anything significant because of it. I don't think there is much we can hope for this late in their development. I've been an advocate of changing the combat system to a more skillbased system than we have now, but what do I know. 

 

If this game releases without a major combat overhaul (and I'm talking MAJOR) then it deserves to be dead on arrival. The current combat system is barely acceptable as an alpha.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Vunak said:

This is the product of CF listening to the wrong crowd when the game was in its earliest testing. 

The game had a really impactful feeling combat system back in Hunger Dome. But they changed it to this super floaty, no animation lock system we have now. CF also has an extremely low skill ceiling so you don't feel like you are doing anything significant because of it. I don't think there is much we can hope for this late in their development. I've been an advocate of changing the combat system to a more skillbased system than we have now, but what do I know. 

I disagree. The animation lock version was even worse than this current version. Actually considerably worse. Don't get me wrong, I love well made combat systems that make good use of animation locks and weighty movements. My current main game uses animation locks. CF's Hunger Dome was NOT one of those. It was jarring, each time you were moving and performed an action you'd just suddenly stop dead in your tracks and only then start the animation. There was no flow of movement. There was no momentum in the swings and animations. ACE said they tried to make this momentum work, but couldn't. So they switched to the current version. Which is also not that great, I agree on that part. But better than what we had.

As for the OP, I assume it _might_ get better near release, since they might still have plans to add more feedback to the combat. More stickiness upon hit registration or at the very least more sound/visual effects upon hitting. 

Edited by Rikutatis

 

 

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32 minutes ago, WOODYS said:

 

If this game releases without a major combat overhaul (and I'm talking MAJOR) then it deserves to be dead on arrival. The current combat system is barely acceptable as an alpha.

i enjoy the combat system, and the words of detractors who have never been to a siege or participated in pvp at all in this game dont mean much to me and i certainly hope not much to the devs


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3 hours ago, Staff said:

combat in 5.110

Im not sure what that video is supposed to show?

Your combat is exactly the same in animation and sound whether you are hitting a target or swinging at empty air. That is the definition of "floaty" combat.

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24 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Im not sure what that video is supposed to show?

Your combat is exactly the same in animation and sound whether you are hitting a target or swinging at empty air. That is the definition of "floaty" combat.

its combat, in 5.110, exactly like i said


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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

I disagree. The animation lock version was even worse than this current version. Actually considerably worse. Don't get me wrong, I love well made combat systems that make good use of animation locks and weighty movements. My current main game uses animation locks. CF's Hunger Dome was NOT one of those. It was jarring, each time you were moving and performed an action you'd just suddenly stop dead in your tracks and only then start the animation. There was no flow of movement. There was no momentum in the swings and animations. ACE said they tried to make this momentum work, but couldn't. So they switched to the current version. Which is also not that great, I agree on that part. But better than what we had.

As for the OP, I assume it _might_ get better near release, since they might still have plans to add more feedback to the combat. More stickiness upon hit registration or at the very least more sound/visual effects upon hitting. 

It definitely had issues, but the main issue was the controller they were using back then. The entire game was in a terrible state until they updated the character controller. We never got to see the animation locked combat with the current controller. Nor did they try and build or flesh out that combat system. 

The Hunger Dome combat system was definitely a better foundation than what we currently have and they should of built on top of what they had to make it fluid, instead we have what we have now which is probably the lowest skill ceiling MMO I have ever played - which I have played a lot of MMOs. 

Edited by Vunak

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16 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

I disagree. The animation lock version was even worse than this current version. Actually considerably worse. Don't get me wrong, I love well made combat systems that make good use of animation locks and weighty movements. My current main game uses animation locks. CF's Hunger Dome was NOT one of those. It was jarring, each time you were moving and performed an action you'd just suddenly stop dead in your tracks and only then start the animation. There was no flow of movement. There was no momentum in the swings and animations. ACE said they tried to make this momentum work, but couldn't. So they switched to the current version. Which is also not that great, I agree on that part. But better than what we had.

As for the OP, I assume it _might_ get better near release, since they might still have plans to add more feedback to the combat. More stickiness upon hit registration or at the very least more sound/visual effects upon hitting. 

18 hours ago, Vunak said:

This is the product of CF listening to the wrong crowd when the game was in its earliest testing. 

The game had a really impactful feeling combat system back in Hunger Dome. But they changed it to this super floaty, no animation lock system we have now. CF also has an extremely low skill ceiling so you don't feel like you are doing anything significant because of it. I don't think there is much we can hope for this late in their development. I've been an advocate of changing the combat system to a more skillbased system than we have now, but what do I know. 

I cannot fully confirm this as I haven't had experience in the Hunger Dome, but looking at gameplay, the combat seems to have regressed between then and now. Back then each skill had impact. The issues were mostly the transitions between attacks and movement. I think if they stuck with it they could have made a really good and impactful combat system that could, with recent improvements to controllers, movement, and combat flow in general, make for a really fun game.

However, making that sorta combat system feel good on a large scale is expensive. Not only do you need to work with more restricted mobility putting a higher strain on designing good mobility and defence options for the classes, but you also need server tech that can support that where this kind of system is a lot less forgiving to ping. I feel the transition here was made more so for that reason than just because they didn't want to make the combat system feel the best it could be. It's simply easier to produce a system more akin to GW2 than to BDO. 

I think the improvements in 5.110 were a step in the right direction and if they continue this way going forward, polishing up animations, and adding further improvements to performance and combat flow I think they can knock out a good system by release. IMO, the main issues with the combat is the delays in hits and the inconsistent hit effects. Adding more feedback to the player would make it feel much better I reckon. 

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I certainly think Crowfall has some of the worst combat out of almost all the current MMOs on the market. There are plenty of situations where movement, animation, and hit registry really feel off. I'm not sure what the fix is, but i certainly think adding more feedback and making some sharper movement would go a long way to making it feel better. 

Overall i think Crowfall has the opportunity to be one of the best character building MMOs in the current market and if they can capitalize on that with the ability to make unique builds then that could cover some of the sourness of combat.

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22 hours ago, Staff said:

i enjoy the combat system, and the words of detractors who have never been to a siege or participated in pvp at all in this game dont mean much to me and i certainly hope not much to the devs

I've participated in sieges/PVP. I enjoy the combat system for what it is. I also enjoyed combat in Everquest, Asheron's Call, SWG, Black Desert, WoW, WAR, DAOC, Aion, ESO, Albion, etc. I found zero joy in Shadowbane's combat but some people love it. To each their own. You can like something and still acknowledge that it isn't perfect. All of the games listed have issues, but they weren't as off putting as some of Crowfall's combat elements.

Compared to the majority of modern games, Crowfall's systems needs work. It's not fair to compare a system in pre-launch by a smaller studio to a larger product, but they seem happy where it is (like yourself) so I can only assume it isn't going to change much. Crowfall's combat isn't terrible at all, but for someone that has played other games, it might feel a bit wonky. I don't expect them to redo anything, but there is definitely some room for improvements.

Combat is one of the most important features in this type of game and also one of the most pointed out systems in need of work. Remember they spent a year at least it seemed focusing on it because of feedback. The small crowd that has played from the start accepted the new version and that was that. These are also the people that are begging to play a buggy test version cause they will take anything given. Might not be the best way to set standards and find the "good enough" mark. At least from my POV as someone that wants this thing to make it to at least being a niche product.

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