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Deioth

Extra Hotbar Slots?

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Given the changes, it does feel like we're in some real need for one extra hotbar slot across the board.  There were a lot of buffs that could be slotted into the Survival tray, and some classes have a lot of arguably critical skills leaving very little room for Discipline skills let alone utility.  One nice advantage that hybrids had (melee/ranged, melee/stealth, ranged/stealth, healing/DPS) was their skills were split between each tray type so they had a lot of room to include discipline skills.  I think they should see how it feels for single-tray classes to get one extra hotbar slot, experiment to see if it is "too good" especially with some races getting an extra power slot as a racial bonus.  It could even be locked to Discipline Power Only and unlocked if you take a Discipline talent (which means they should put the second Discipline talent behind the other to avoid people missing the bonus power slot).  Anyone agree with this approach to experiment before it is too late?

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I'd like 2 slots specifically for Discipline powers.

Players could choose to put Discipline powers into the base 8 slots, but 2 extra would specifically allow players to make more interesting builds without sacrificing as much base kit

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Posted (edited)

Isn't the whole idea behind playing a Human race over X for the additional hotbar slot. Also limiting what you can have on your hotbar does force you into choices you otherwise wouldn't make. Like I'll focus more on AoE healing and only have one single target healing on my hotbar VS. someone that focuses on single target healing and only has one AoE. 

I don't have a horse in this race, but I do like the idea of having more limited space on the bars and forcing more tactical choices in your hotbar setup. 

I'm going to small man PvP, so I will stack my single target healing VS. I'm going to siege and need to bring more AoE Healing. Etc.

I do believe the suggestion of giving single hotbar classes an additional button for Disciplines would be unfair to multi-bar classes as it's part of there design kit and not everything can be slotted into each bars to begin with. I wouldn't mind seeing an additional bar for everyone, but I think that would dilute the choice of being human. Maybe a happy compromise would be having "Racial active abilities" on there own designated slot much like "consumables, mounts, recall" have. I think less people would be grumpy with a move like that and it would free up a hotbar slot without trampling race/class design choices.

 

Edited by Sorrows
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42 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

I do believe the suggestion of giving single hotbar classes an additional button for Disciplines would be unfair to multi-bar classes as it's part of there design kit

I dont believe that the classes with multiple bars are that way because their class kit was designed for them to have multiple bars to balance their power levels with classes that have one bar in the least.

Their powers are split onto multiple bars to limit their power by not having every skill available at one time. Its to keep their power lower....

It doesnt change the huge imbalance of versatility that multi-bar classes have over single bar classes. What should be dont is that classes with multiple bars should have the sizes of their bars cut in half (yes, im serious). That way they dont have access to every skill at one time yet they dont have the versatility of having 2x-3x the amount of skills on hand that single bar classes have.

Classes with multiple bars dont do any less damage or healing than their counterparts with 1 bar, so it isnt like they need 2x-3x the amount of skills to balance it out. Its just a glaring balance issue that will probably not be released.

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1 minute ago, Toadwart said:

It doesnt change the huge imbalance of versatility that multi-bar classes have over single bar classes. What should be dont is that classes with multiple bars should have the sizes of their bars cut in half (yes, im serious). That way they dont have access to every skill at one time yet they dont have the versatility of having 2x-3x the amount of skills on hand that single bar classes have.

So basically you're saying b/c I play a class with multi hotbars is that I should have half my abilities cut and not have a fully designed kit because it's unfair to single bar classes and there fully designed kits not being able to have discipline abilities. FYI if I want to equip a Discipline ability on my mulit-hotbar ranger, I first need to unequip a skill because I lack hotbar space as well. Because just like single hotbar classes the kit was designed around the fact that I have multi-bar access. 

So to cut my bar in half would literally take half my base kit away, not to mention the same hard choice of single-hotbar classes of rather I should equip a discipline ability. It kinda sounds like you are either trolling or have not played many multi-bar classes. Either way I doubt I can take anything you say seriously after the above statement.

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4 hours ago, APE said:

I'd like 2 slots specifically for Discipline powers.

Players could choose to put Discipline powers into the base 8 slots, but 2 extra would specifically allow players to make more interesting builds without sacrificing as much base kit

Arguably 2 is too much, especially with bonus power tray racials.  At minimum, we need one discipline specific 9th slot which would bring total powers to 10 on racial bonus.  I think that would be perfect and allow players to specialize and make unique builds without feeling like they have to sacrifice too much "necessary" base kit while this would also help expand for those who specialize heavily into Discipline builds without giving them too much "free" base kit.

2 hours ago, Sorrows said:

I do believe the suggestion of giving single hotbar classes an additional button for Disciplines would be unfair to multi-bar classes as it's part of there design kit and not everything can be slotted into each bars to begin with. I wouldn't mind seeing an additional bar for everyone, but I think that would dilute the choice of being human. Maybe a happy compromise would be having "Racial active abilities" on there own designated slot much like "consumables, mounts, recall" have. I think less people would be grumpy with a move like that and it would free up a hotbar slot without trampling race/class design choices.

 

It is VERY easy to fit in extra powers on multi-bar classes because they tend to get the same number of skills as every other class but split between two bars.  This makes it extremely easy to fit in more skills from each discipline you take.  Make a ranger, assassin, or duelist and you'll see how much extra room you have compared to many others.  Compare that to a champion or myrmidon or confessor, for example.  There's very little room left, especially if you're a race with a powerful racial skill (that maybe you picked that race for that racial).  I'm not sure the best way to go about it, either giving single-bar toons an extra slot, making the first Discipline talent offer a Discipline power slot universally, or even downgrading two-bars down to 7 or 6 actives.  Ideally, it should be something that  brings others up rather than another down, but I'd also not want to see two-bar get another slot as part of the adjustment because then they'd never have to make hard choices, even easier for half elves and humans (assuming the extra bar slot is still a racial?  Not checked yet).

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sorrows said:

Isn't the whole idea behind playing a Human race over X for the additional hotbar slot.

If that is the reason to pick a human, then the race isn't designed well. Races should have multiple points of value not just one trick. But likely many races are picked in such a way sadly.

Also don't believe the entire bar/combat/power setup should revolve around a race or two having an extra slot as a racial. Although that does sound like the backwards development going on.

If everyone had 9-10 slots by default, then I would assume races that have that as a perk would get another slot. It's a matter of adding an extra box on the bar UI.

Quote

Also limiting what you can have on your hotbar does force you into choices you otherwise wouldn't make. Like I'll focus more on AoE healing and only have one single target healing on my hotbar VS. someone that focuses on single target healing and only has one AoE. 

IMO, the choice should be on the Discipline level, not the base class kit. Almost every other MMO is built that way and it works. You get your base kit that fulfills the role of the class, but then can add XYZ spec-talent-tree-whatever to it to add flavor and more unique builds. Disciplines and Promo Powers (if available) do that. Choosing which Discipline/Promo and Powers that come from them should be where the limiting and hard choices come into play. Beyond that, Disciplines are called a "Sub-Class" system but very few do more then provide another dmg power or buff. Most aren't really changing game play, but likely require giving up a base power taking away from the core class function.

If we had 20 good powers to choose from, it would be less of an issue but many classes have 6+ almost mandatory powers leaving little to no room for Disciplines which devalues many Disciplines. Again, if we had more Discipline with Passive and Stats it wouldn't be such a stand out. However, many Disciplines have 1-2+ Powers that it is dumb not to slot if you take them. Then there are racials and the scarce room for them.

It is a choice, but choices can be about adding to the core instead of replacing or subtracting from it.

When we had minors that added 1 bar and passive slot they were almost universally used. That should tell ACE something. People want more room to play. The reasoning of "it didn't make humans as attracted" is just silly. Make humans more attractive then, don't take away the ability to be more creative with majority of players and their characters.

Quote

I do believe the suggestion of giving single hotbar classes an additional button for Disciplines would be unfair to multi-bar classes as it's part of there design kit and not everything can be slotted into each bars to begin with.

That is the problem. However with multi bar classes, they have twice as many powers in several cases. Multi bar classes aren't penalized for having two bars beyond they have to swap between them with a button press, oh no...

2 hours ago, Sorrows said:

So basically you're saying b/c I play a class with multi hotbars is that I should have half my abilities cut and not have a fully designed kit because it's unfair to single bar classes and there fully designed kits not being able to have discipline abilities.

I don't agree with cutting multi bars in half but it doesn't seem balanced as is. I haven't played a ranger for a bit but I don't remember there being enough powers to fill up each bar. Unless you are factoring in racials? My guess is a ranger, not counting racials has at least one if not 2+ spots for Discipline powers on melee/range/stealth bars.

Look at Frostweaver. Believe it has 8 or 9 core powers with 1 from two of the Promos. That leaves no room for racials or Disciplines. So to add 1 promo, 1 racial, and 1 power from both Disciplines, a FW has to give up half their core tool kit. Just seems very restrictive without adding more fun value.

I enjoy games where characters have 3-5 powers and that's it. But every single one is a quality power that is used constantly, Crowfall is about quantity over quality and highly limits the quantity we can use.

Edited by APE

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42 minutes ago, Deioth said:

Arguably 2 is too much, especially with bonus power tray racials. 

Why?

Why is 1 okay but 2 too many? If 1 allows players to be more creative, why wouldn't 2 allow them to be twice as creative?

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27 minutes ago, Deioth said:

It is VERY easy to fit in extra powers on multi-bar classes because they tend to get the same number of skills as every other class but split between two bars.  This makes it extremely easy to fit in more skills from each discipline you take.  Make a ranger, assassin, or duelist and you'll see how much extra room you have compared to many others.  Compare that to a champion or myrmidon or confessor, for example.  There's very little room left, especially if you're a race with a powerful racial skill (that maybe you picked that race for that racial).  I'm not sure the best way to go about it, either giving single-bar toons an extra slot, making the first Discipline talent offer a Discipline power slot universally, or even downgrading two-bars down to 7 or 6 actives.  Ideally, it should be something that  brings others up rather than another down, but I'd also not want to see two-bar get another slot as part of the adjustment because then they'd never have to make hard choices, even easier for half elves and humans (assuming the extra bar slot is still a racial?  Not checked yet).

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I play a Warden ranger as my primary class and no I don't have additional space on my bars for anything that is not base-kit, racial, or promotion class abilities. Also if you chose a race for a powerful racial that is a "CHOICE" that you want said ability on your bar instead of playing Human if that is an option for your class,  Half-elves no longer receive the additional slot just fyi.

I get you can't get everything and put everything on your bar and that is upsetting to you, but that is also part of the choice. I'm X class that focuses on Z while another person is X class and focuses on Y. There is nothing wrong with having hard choices to make, but I do get the frustration level of it but trying to buff X class because Y class has Z will just lead to harmonization of the classes eventually as everyone will be able to do everything and slot every power etc.

4 minutes ago, APE said:

That is the problem. However with multi bar classes, they have twice as many powers in several cases. Multi bar classes aren't penalized for having two bars beyond they have to swap between them with a button press, oh no...

Well swapping has a GCD to it so there is a penalty first off.  Also in the case of say a Ranger I don't want to be in my ranged tray when a Raging Bull is hacking me to death and I need to be in my melee tray so essentially I only have access to half my class during most combat unless I'm willing to swap trays. I do less damage than say a pure melee tray class and I do less damage than a single tray mage class. So there is a massive trade off and lots of game play implication of playing a mulit-bar class as I'm really required to use my entire kit to win fights and can't aimlessly sit in one tray and spam my 8 buttons. Which is one reason I play a multi-bar class as I like the versatility, but  please let's not pretend it doesn't come with it's own price and that I'm just ROFLSTOMPING anyone that is a single hotbar class b/c my kit gives me access to two.

 

13 minutes ago, APE said:

It is a choice, but choices can be about adding to the core instead of replacing or subtracting from it.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but currently that is not the way ACE has headed. As I said earlier I wouldn't mind seeing Active Racial abilities getting there own active button which would free up a single hotkey for everyone, but I do like making hard choices even if it infringes on part of my kit versus having access to everything which will just homogenize the classes to a Min/Max perspective.  

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25 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I play a Warden ranger as my primary class and no I don't have additional space on my bars for anything that is not base-kit, racial, or promotion class abilities.

Some classes don't have room for their base kit, not including racial/promo and the disciplines. Believe Warden has 6 Range and 8 Melee? That is just one promo/class though, others have it better/worse.

25 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

Also if you chose a race for a powerful racial that is a "CHOICE" that you want said ability on your bar instead of playing Human if that is an option for your class,  Half-elves no longer receive the additional slot just fyi.

I wish all races had a racial equivalent to an extra bar slot or just something worth using at all on the bar.

25 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

will just lead to harmonization of the classes eventually as everyone will be able to do everything and slot every power etc.

How so? If each class is unique having a slot or two more for disciplines isn't going to homogenize it nor giver everyone everything. There is a big difference between adding ~1-2 slots for a max of 10 vs 20+ other games have.

 Even if we had enough room for a full base kit, promos, racials, and everything found on any 2 disciplines, that still isn't going to give someone everything or homogenize it. Unless everyone is playing the exact same build? Which would point to a larger problem. No class, racial, discipline setup is going to be that crazy.

25 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

Well swapping has a GCD to it so there is a penalty first off.  Also in the case of say a Ranger I don't want to be in my ranged tray when a Raging Bull is hacking me to death and I need to be in my melee tray so essentially I only have access to half my class during most combat unless I'm willing to swap trays. I do less damage than say a pure melee tray class and I do less damage than a single tray mage class. So there is a massive trade off and lots of game play implication of playing a mulit-bar class as I'm really required to use my entire kit to win fights and can't aimlessly sit in one tray and spam my 8 buttons. Which is one reason I play a multi-bar class as I like the versatility, but  please let's not pretend it doesn't come with it's own price and that I'm just ROFLSTOMPING anyone that is a single hotbar class b/c my kit gives me access to two.

Guess it depends on the build and player. Archers have two bars and seem to do decent damage with just one bar while having optional melee tools and space for disciplines.

As a ranged caster I don't want to be in a ranged tray when a Raging Bull happens, but I can't swap to any melee skills nor have anything to deal with melee more then a Ranger of any sort.

You have the option to swap trays, with that massive GCD, single trays don't have that luxury at all.

I also prefer more complex characters/builds and why I'd like more powers to play with regardless of the class I'm on. Adding more slots would benefit everyone equally. The more restrictive it is, the less I can do, the less challenging the experience, the less fun I have.

You seem to be focused entirely on what you play and how you build your character, there is a bit more going on outside of your experience.

25 minutes ago, Sorrows said:

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but currently that is not the way ACE has headed. As I said earlier I wouldn't mind seeing Active Racial abilities getting there own active button which would free up a single hotkey for everyone, but I do like making hard choices even if it infringes on part of my kit versus having access to everything which will just homogenize the classes to a Min/Max perspective.  

Where it is currently and where it might be in a month or year could be very different. That's the point of feedback. I wouldn't mind a Racial slot, but several races don't have anything worth slotting at all or for particular race/class combos. Would be a waste of a bar slot. Now if we could play any race with a class, that would be something else.

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Posted (edited)

The issue here is that the tradeoff in bar space for a lot of powers that could sit in the survival tray was a part of the design of the powers as a whole. We don't necessarily need more bar space, but if we lack that bar space a lot of powers need to be reworked in terms of their effects, recharge, etc. to make them compelling options, perhaps move some buff powers to passive triggered effects, etc.

I'm all for meaningful choices, but the issue right now is that a ton of disc powers are just bad choices if you can't jam them on to the survival tray. Make those powers better choices and you get a lot of build diversity while keeping tray sizes low, and you can justify shorter cooldowns or lower costs on those powers too.

There are tons of disc powers that only suffer from having the "discipline curse" of a long recharge time, or lackluster damage or whatever. bump those powers up so people are more willing to trade off class powers for them and we end up with more interesting choices.

Adding more bar space just dilutes the effect of choices IMO. You still end up with every race/class X having mostly the same kit with only 1 or 2 disc powers tossed in.

Having the expectation to be that players have more good powers than they have bar space to put them is a good thing IMO. It means characters have a lot of situational options and soft role mobility. Everyone should feel like a cleric, where you've got a truckload of really solid powers that you can't use all at once, and have the option of reslotting to lean in to various tasks without swapping characters.

If there are issues with multitray templates being too good at banking powers that aren't ranged attacks, the simple solution to that is to remove those powers from certain trays, offer different variants of majors the powers come from for different classes, etc.

This is why nobody is bothered about people stashing powers on the stealth tray. In general you can't use the stealth tray as a placeholder just to swap to to cast a buff or whatever.

Edited by PopeUrban

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16 hours ago, Sorrows said:

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I play a Warden ranger as my primary class and no I don't have additional space on my bars for anything that is not base-kit, racial, or promotion class abilities. Also if you chose a race for a powerful racial that is a "CHOICE" that you want said ability on your bar instead of playing Human if that is an option for your class,  Half-elves no longer receive the additional slot just fyi.

Huh?  I'd experimented with a Minotaur Warden once and had to sacrifice something like ONE skill.  I had very little trouble fitting in everything I needed and choice became a matter of which seemed more consistently useful than a difficult "I'd want both of these all the time."  This would be a tad more difficult now that we can't hide a lot of buffs on the Survival tray certainly, but it was pretty easy.  Half Elf Blackguard was even easier because they have so few melee tray skills already.  And it isn't even just single-tray classes that are ninja nerfed with this change as is and the current setup.  Harvesters are affected, too, and now could be even less capable of defending themselves.

16 hours ago, APE said:

Why?

Why is 1 okay but 2 too many? If 1 allows players to be more creative, why wouldn't 2 allow them to be twice as creative?

Because then it could risk being too easy to get everything you want.  While part of the current issue may be that a lot of disciplines simply lack interesting or useful or worthwhile powers over something base kit, if everyone had two extra power slots right now off the bat I could fit every single "good" discipline power and my full base kit in on practically every character I play.  I haven't tested every class, but those I have played seem to have one sometimes two power slots left to spare before racials.  It'd be worth testing probably, but I think what would feel best is simply giving a Discipline specific power slot on first Discipline talent and then expand on what PopeUrban suggested and just make sure every power or discipline at base is balanced against being universal or restricted to a certain weapon type or tray type.  Some obviously do that already, but they could expand on it for sure to ensure for balance.

15 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

*snip*

It certainly seems to be the case that there are few disciplines and discipline powers worth the exchange but we'll see balance efforts soon on that end.  But, there is definitely a problem if, in order to be an effective front line DPS for example, I need to use sometimes my entire base kit and can't bring in discs to enhance utility or survivability because then I am pigeonholed heavily.  There SHOULD be meaningful choices, but I shouldn't be required to sacrifice important skills to my base role just so it can be played effectively especially when others have bar space they can fill in like multi-bar classes.  Meaningful choices should mean specialization, not gutting the base kit to be effective.  Sure, there's a matter of comp and making sure everyone synergizes, but there's a definite disparity when multi-bar classes get room to spare because their base kit powers are split between two trays, especially if they're no worse for wear in combat effectiveness.

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16 hours ago, APE said:

Why?

Why is 1 okay but 2 too many? If 1 allows players to be more creative, why wouldn't 2 allow them to be twice as creative?

everyone should get 1 more slot Humans should get 2 slots cause thats there racial is the extra slot.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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If only the pendulum didn't swing away from Shadowbane style building. In Shadowbane you had access to all your skills, and you were unique because you were taking:

  1. Creation runes
  2. In game stat runes
  3. Discs that actually had game changing abilities you wanted to use
  4. Weapon disciplines that could completely change up how you play from the next class
  5. You trained points into your abilities. Usually this consisted of 1, 20 or 40 but that changed what skills players relied on.

In Crowfall we instead got them moving away from this. And there feels like no choice, nothing interesting you're excited in taking. And you feel like every other class. The answer isn't to just limit artificially more of base class skills to use, or inability to use discipline skills you get just to make the illusion of specializing in something. Just feel like lazy development right now. 

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1 hour ago, Deioth said:

It certainly seems to be the case that there are few disciplines and discipline powers worth the exchange but we'll see balance efforts soon on that end.  But, there is definitely a problem if, in order to be an effective front line DPS for example, I need to use sometimes my entire base kit and can't bring in discs to enhance utility or survivability because then I am pigeonholed heavily.  There SHOULD be meaningful choices, but I shouldn't be required to sacrifice important skills to my base role just so it can be played effectively especially when others have bar space they can fill in like multi-bar classes.  Meaningful choices should mean specialization, not gutting the base kit to be effective.  Sure, there's a matter of comp and making sure everyone synergizes, but there's a definite disparity when multi-bar classes get room to spare because their base kit powers are split between two trays, especially if they're no worse for wear in combat effectiveness.

This is an issue with the design of the powers themselves, not necessarily the number of trays to put them in. Classes who are too heavily reliant on having 5 or 6 powers permaslotted to do one thing (like DPS or heal effectively) need to have those powers looked at so they're less reliant on one another. Rangers and archdruids are designed around tray swapping as a form of limitation moreso than versatility, but we should also take a look at how much DO e want to see on, e.g. a ranged tray? what's appropriate and what do we need to take off that tray if having the tray space is too big an advantage?

Simply adding bar space wouldn't change the underlying problem with pigeonholed  single bar classes, namely that they're designed in a manner that is hostile to build diversity and player choice. Combos exist explicitly to solve this sort of problem, by allowing multiple effects to be assigned to a single slot.

Simply having a system in which we expect every character to be "your entire class kit plus some disc powers" on the hotbar puts us in a position here discs will always kinda suck, as they're just frosting on top of an already completed cake in stead of different ingrediats that allow the player to choose to either bake the vanilla cake, or something more exotic by changing the ingredients.

Using slot limitations as a game mechanic has a purpose, and that purpose is so that each power slotted can be individually more powerful and impactful. The alternate old school method of reigning in ability power is to have 500 hotkeys, all of which have some combination of overly long cooldowns, complicated shared cooldowns, massive resource costs, or some comination of all three.

Powers need a pass to fit in to this new paradigm, but simply returning to the old paradigm doesn't actually fix class or power designs that were already on shaky ground viability wise.


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