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How can my day 3 crafter compete....


srathor
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On 4/6/2020 at 10:34 AM, PopeUrban said:

I'm looking at this from the perspective of "new player joins six months after launch.

6 months after launch, there will be master crafters producing top of the line crafting armor. New players should be able to purchase good gear to give them a leg up at the start. Though that was also true about PvP, and people complained anyway that they couldn't compete, so they added dropped gear.

Just have mobs drop crafting gear. Simple.

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On 4/6/2020 at 2:48 PM, Jah said:

I would prefer that crafters not be reliant on upgrading wartribe gear to compete with wartribe gear. They should be able to craft gear that is as good as wartribe gear.

Harvesting and Crafting should be a viable alternative to looting mobs.

I agree with this.

The quality of wartribe gear currently being dropped is way too high and it eliminates any reason for anybody to craft weapons or armor until they can craft something better. Unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a complete no brainer issue. What is the intent of wartribe gear? The only reason I have come up with is giving a new player the chance to obtain gear so they can play the game and possibly compete. In my opinion the random armor/weapon vendor is sufficient for a new player to easily upgrade their starting gear and be able to kill mobs.

What about instead of dropping gear the mobs drop weapon and armor components of varying quality and statistics. Crafters would be essential day 1 trying to make the best gear for their guild out of whatever was brought to them. PVE'ers would be essential to get the parts. Harvestors would be essential to get the dust. Crafters would probably have vendors to sell their junk gear. The quality of gear being crafted would increase relatively equally as people's trees fill out and eventually crafters will be able to craft their own components.

-Draconic Warlords, Usual Suspects, Freaks of Nature, Disturbed Forces, The Hate Crew, TSCCC-

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On 4/7/2020 at 2:44 PM, Arkade said:

6 months after launch, there will be master crafters producing top of the line crafting armor. New players should be able to purchase good gear to give them a leg up at the start. Though that was also true about PvP, and people complained anyway that they couldn't compete, so they added dropped gear.

Just have mobs drop crafting gear. Simple.

I want to know how new players should be able to purchase good gear to give them a leg up at the start? What does new player and start mean to you and how should they get enough currency on day 1? 

People complained about the power curve( at that time it was way worse then today) and the lack of economy/marketplace to get goods. Gold was made worthless and EK's kind of vaporized around that time frame also. They added mob dropped gear around that time and it destroyed a portion of the crafting loop. Having mobs also drop resources will do the same for harvesting. 

Better suggestion is to have a marketplace/economy/ek's and remove mobs dropping gear and npc vendors. 

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16 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I want to know how new players should be able to purchase good gear to give them a leg up at the start? What does new player and start mean to you and how should they get enough currency on day 1? 

People complained about the power curve( at that time it was way worse then today) and the lack of economy/marketplace to get goods. Gold was made worthless and EK's kind of vaporized around that time frame also. They added mob dropped gear around that time and it destroyed a portion of the crafting loop. Having mobs also drop resources will do the same for harvesting. 

Better suggestion is to have a marketplace/economy/ek's and remove mobs dropping gear and npc vendors. 

It's not hard to make gold. It's something that new players can actively do. You can say that gold has little value, but that's a separate argument. They can harvest dust and embers too, if they want to use that instead. 

The economy was bad because crafters couldn't produce good stuff and because the population was low. In the live game, 6 months into it, neither of those things should be true. Before they added dropped gear, that was my argument. I didn't think we needed dropped gear. At the start of the game, everyone is crafting crap, but everyone is on equal footing. As the game matures, new players would be able to take advantage of the economy to get up to speed. ACE decided to add the dropped gear, so that new players can more quickly compete in PvP and, in the process, hurt crafting.

I doubt they are going to remove dropped gear at this point, so instead I think it makes sense to add crafting gear as drops. There's no reason the same solution for PvP can't work for crafting. Even now, crafters are paying top dollar for any armor with +12 int on it. Imagine if there was armor that, in addition to the int, had some assembly and experimentation as well. Say, a rare helm with +4 runemaking and +4 runemaking experimentation. Get the full set and that's +16 to both. That would help a lot and it's something that players could actively do, either by buying the gear from other players or trying to farm it themselves.

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6 hours ago, Arkade said:

ACE decided to add the dropped gear, so that new players can more quickly compete in PvP and, in the process, hurt crafting.

I doubt they are going to remove dropped gear at this point, so instead I think it makes sense to add crafting gear as drops. There's no reason the same solution for PvP can't work for crafting. 

The solution was worse then the problem. As you said it hurt crafting, applying it in more situations will make things worse. 

I agree that a major problem was/is population in regards to economy especially, but to be fair this game has very little coded to facilitate an economy/marketplace. I feel that population issues have caused too many unnecessary changes that have caused more problems while trying to fix a symptom of low population.

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It might come as a shock, but crafters want to craft things. Things that will make their chosen profession better. In time savings, in skill, in power. In cosmetic ways. All the same things pvpers want. Or pvers as well. Cool things to make, cool things to do. 

We would like to feel needed. To feel valued.  

I know this is a test. I know it is a work in progress.  I know it is a work in progress. And that there are  a million pebbles that need to be moved over there to the better place. 

So when I say that the only movement in the last year+ has been to a worse place, I say it from a place of frustration and disappointment. 

Changes have been made to ease out other things. Direct changes that make it less fun. (Making basic whites so much harder to experiment on) Time gating that is frankly, blind to the desires and wants of your customers. (95% of a tree required to move on, shovels available almost a month after necromancy training is aquired.) Getting wood based drops in the stone and metal tree, dust removed from basic drop tables, but we still have to train a now worthless node. Bone drops in the 2% range with no way to boost them except more passive training that is taking forever. The best gear by a large margin being dropped randomised gear and the crafters making 10th of a point items that are just not worth the time or effort. And failure rates that are punishing to the idea of even trying to craft items that are not worth it. 

And we have been hearing about factories and improvements for a half a decade. While not even having a mail system, or bags that can handle the endless bloat of more and more things that can be used to make nothing of value. 

And the war of the gods is a strongly worded letter of disapproval with crashing ek's, no combat and an endless cycle of disappointment with the passive training choices, the time wasting of crafting, and the uselessness of gathering when no-one wants the things crafters can produce.

If this is the calm before the storm, then Crowfall has a very bleak future.

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39 minutes ago, srathor said:

It might come as a shock, but crafters want to craft things. Things that will make their chosen profession better. In time savings, in skill, in power. In cosmetic ways. All the same things pvpers want. Or pvers as well. Cool things to make, cool things to do. 

We would like to feel needed. To feel valued.  

I know this is a test. I know it is a work in progress.  I know it is a work in progress. And that there are  a million pebbles that need to be moved over there to the better place. 

So when I say that the only movement in the last year+ has been to a worse place, I say it from a place of frustration and disappointment. 

Changes have been made to ease out other things. Direct changes that make it less fun. (Making basic whites so much harder to experiment on) Time gating that is frankly, blind to the desires and wants of your customers. (95% of a tree required to move on, shovels available almost a month after necromancy training is aquired.) Getting wood based drops in the stone and metal tree, dust removed from basic drop tables, but we still have to train a now worthless node. Bone drops in the 2% range with no way to boost them except more passive training that is taking forever. The best gear by a large margin being dropped randomised gear and the crafters making 10th of a point items that are just not worth the time or effort. And failure rates that are punishing to the idea of even trying to craft items that are not worth it. 

And we have been hearing about factories and improvements for a half a decade. While not even having a mail system, or bags that can handle the endless bloat of more and more things that can be used to make nothing of value. 

And the war of the gods is a strongly worded letter of disapproval with crashing ek's, no combat and an endless cycle of disappointment with the passive training choices, the time wasting of crafting, and the uselessness of gathering when no-one wants the things crafters can produce.

If this is the calm before the storm, then Crowfall has a very bleak future.

true words

 

day 15 after wipe, still only some tools to make... but who is willing to use them? of course ppl testing out the stuff, but with a real income for a guild, only those who can feel no pain. ah, missed to mention the arrows... jewelcrafting has become a remake, but don´t want to go through the pain to get all the gems needed to test all, especially with the very high flawed assembly chance. but yeah... soon™

Edited by Surelia
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On 4/9/2020 at 1:21 PM, Arkade said:

ACE decided to add the dropped gear, so that new players can more quickly compete in PvP and, in the process, hurt crafting.

Which makes no sense.

I mean, the only thing that would make sense was if those drops were implemented 6 months after launch.

"Hey, guys. Now that everyone is rocking blues (or better) we decided to make green gear easily accesible so that new players' first impression aren't they geting cumberstomped unless they spend a lot of gold to get competitive gear."

Plus, I'd like to think 6 months in we would have already implemented a catch up mechanic so new crafter would skip the white quality hell. I think 6 months tops is plenty good a timeframe for white quaity, after that we can easily use green as baseline.

Today, the reasoning that wartribes drops are to make players competive on PvP faster is complete fortitude (ha, you guys censor the most chill british slang ever?). All we are doing is giving everyone extra stats (and screwing crafters while at it).

Edited by BarriaKarl
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4 hours ago, srathor said:

It might come as a shock, but crafters want to craft things. Things that will make their chosen profession better. In time savings, in skill, in power. In cosmetic ways. All the same things pvpers want. Or pvers as well. Cool things to make, cool things to do. 

We would like to feel needed. To feel valued.  

I know this is a test. I know it is a work in progress.  I know it is a work in progress. And that there are  a million pebbles that need to be moved over there to the better place. 

So when I say that the only movement in the last year+ has been to a worse place, I say it from a place of frustration and disappointment. 

Changes have been made to ease out other things. Direct changes that make it less fun. (Making basic whites so much harder to experiment on) Time gating that is frankly, blind to the desires and wants of your customers. (95% of a tree required to move on, shovels available almost a month after necromancy training is aquired.) Getting wood based drops in the stone and metal tree, dust removed from basic drop tables, but we still have to train a now worthless node. Bone drops in the 2% range with no way to boost them except more passive training that is taking forever. The best gear by a large margin being dropped randomised gear and the crafters making 10th of a point items that are just not worth the time or effort. And failure rates that are punishing to the idea of even trying to craft items that are not worth it. 

And we have been hearing about factories and improvements for a half a decade. While not even having a mail system, or bags that can handle the endless bloat of more and more things that can be used to make nothing of value. 

And the war of the gods is a strongly worded letter of disapproval with crashing ek's, no combat and an endless cycle of disappointment with the passive training choices, the time wasting of crafting, and the uselessness of gathering when no-one wants the things crafters can produce.

If this is the calm before the storm, then Crowfall has a very bleak future.

There is a pile of issues that continue to pile as the push to be "feature complete".

For long term tester it is troubling and disheartening.

If they don't stop and actually take care of them all that will be seen is those pile of issues and no one will care about the features.

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I had another idea for how to address this: allow players to train both tracks in the same sphere. 

In the past, we were limited to 1 sphere per track because of the differences in VIP vs non-VIP skill training. They didn't want VIP players to be able to train more in combat, for example, than a non-VIP player. Now that skill training is the same for both VIP and non-VIP, that is no longer a concern.

Now of course, allowing us to do this would mean we could train twice as fast in one sphere, so maybe some limitations would need to be put on it still, or some adjustments to costs made. Maybe if both tracks are used to train the same sphere, the secondary track accumulates points at half the rate. That would still enable crafters to train 50% faster, but they would be sacrificing 25% of their total skill points to do it. For simplicity sake, they probably shouldn't be allowed to both train the same node (unless it's really easy to do tech-wise). That really would only be an issue for the first node of the crafting basics tree. After that, there should always be more than 1 node to train, until the final node I guess. 

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Right now you don't accumulate points in a node but in a tree, your concern about training the same node doesn't apply imho.

A simpler solution keeping two different spheres is accelerate the training in the main sphere you select (2x, 3x, whatever) and keep the current speed in the secondary.nother

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3 hours ago, Arkade said:

I had another idea for how to address this: allow players to train both tracks in the same sphere. 

In the past, we were limited to 1 sphere per track because of the differences in VIP vs non-VIP skill training. They didn't want VIP players to be able to train more in combat, for example, than a non-VIP player. Now that skill training is the same for both VIP and non-VIP, that is no longer a concern.

Now of course, allowing us to do this would mean we could train twice as fast in one sphere, so maybe some limitations would need to be put on it still, or some adjustments to costs made. Maybe if both tracks are used to train the same sphere, the secondary track accumulates points at half the rate. That would still enable crafters to train 50% faster, but they would be sacrificing 25% of their total skill points to do it. For simplicity sake, they probably shouldn't be allowed to both train the same node (unless it's really easy to do tech-wise). That really would only be an issue for the first node of the crafting basics tree. After that, there should always be more than 1 node to train, until the final node I guess. 

Or just add a train rate distinction to the two tracks.  Primary being 2 or 3 X of the secondary.   I think that used to be how it worked with VIP/Non-VIP anyway. 

In fact, what might be ideal would be three tracks, a 3X track a 2X track and and a 1X track.  You can train in "everything" at the same time, but one is always slower than the rest. 

With the same total cap in each line, if you were away for a full month they would all just be packed in at the 250k cap, while if you want to keep up your primary "bonus", you have to login at least once every 10ish days. 

 

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They nerfed wartribe gear some. 

So here's the EXACT axe srathor posted the screenshot in the OP vs. the nerfed axe. 

Durability was cut in half (although sorta bugged since it shows 922/500 now, I've used it a bit since the screenshot was taken). 

Damage was cut by a fair amount (8 lower end, 13 upper end). 

Strength lowered by 1. Attack power by 10. Crit damage by 0.32%. 

Odd that the 5% slashing bonus, maybe the most impactful stat on the item, wasn't touched. 

 

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I feel like nerfing durability is so not the way to go about this.  Competitive players don't go "Well the durability is so low I guess they aren't worth using."  

 

Competitive players go "Ugh, now I have to farm several sets of gear to remain competitive."  Nerfing the power of the item is fine as a band-aid (however it does make wartribe items further away from "minimum viable" without actually solving the white gear being bad problem) but nerfing how fast it goes away is just going to up the grind.  Nobody serious about winning is going to sacrifice power for convenience.  

Edited by Hungry
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They introduced a change in experimentation in last patch (not in the patch notes of course). The quality modifier for experimentation difficulty is gone, so now it should be easier to get good experimentation results with white quality and low training. Final experimentation difficulty for common items is 30 lower than before. I couldn't check if there are other changes because the experimentation window is bugged right now.

Right now you don't accumulate points in a node but in a tree, your concern about training the same node doesn't apply imho.

A simpler solution keeping two different spheres is accelerate the training in the main sphere you select (2x, 3x, whatever) and keep the current speed in the secondary.nother

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1 hour ago, Extintor said:

They introduced a change in experimentation in last patch (not in the patch notes of course). The quality modifier for experimentation difficulty is gone, so now it should be easier to get good experimentation results with white quality and low training. Final experimentation difficulty for common items is 30 lower than before. I couldn't check if there are other changes because the experimentation window is bugged right now.

This should help. I wonder though if that will narrow the power curve too much, unless they made other changes as well. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

This should help. I wonder though if that will narrow the power curve too much, unless they made other changes as well. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I hope they'll fix the experimentation window bug tomorrow so we can test how it feels after the change.

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