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srathor

How can my day 3 crafter compete....

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Posted (edited)

A solution could be to limit gear drop to crafting training curve. Only drop gear with power 90% of crafted gear be available. This way you can have epic gear drop but only when epic crafting is viable as well.

Edited by KDSProm

Gen. Prom
Guild Leader of KDS
Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
Visit us at www.kdsguild.ro

 

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My solution would be to add in a salvage process for crafters. Break apart that weapon So that I get a blue axe head and a blue handle. Salvage the axe head itself and get 2 blue ingots of Ugrunite (Iron equivalent)

Get subcomponents from salvage of dropped gear, get mats from salvage of subcomponents. That lets crafters compete. Pull off that axe head. Custom make a handle that will do something people want. 

Salvage the handle into mats to make a new handle. Sure at a loss. Take 3 salvages with some random luck to make a new comparable axe. With less durability from a true Hand made axe from a skilled crafter with raw materials.



 

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Of course with skill so that failing every other combine doesn't happen. We are supposed to be heros who led a long storied life before becoming crows for the gods. Not mouth breathing buffoons who don;t know which end of a forge is hot. Sure I can't ADD value till I get better again, but I should not screw up everything I touch.

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What if making an ace it uses a mob dropped piece as a base in the recipe and you add stats onto the mob dropped gear instead of how it is now

So instead of 1 hilt 1 blade on finally craft it be 1 mobdropped sword + 1 hilt and blade and you'll get the stats from the mob sword+rest of stats


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, srathor said:

My solution would be to add in a salvage process for crafters. Break apart that weapon So that I get a blue axe head and a blue handle. Salvage the axe head itself and get 2 blue ingots of Ugrunite (Iron equivalent)

Get subcomponents from salvage of dropped gear, get mats from salvage of subcomponents. That lets crafters compete. Pull off that axe head. Custom make a handle that will do something people want. 

Salvage the handle into mats to make a new handle. Sure at a loss. Take 3 salvages with some random luck to make a new comparable axe. With less durability from a true Hand made axe from a skilled crafter with raw materials.
 

This could work. The single thing Crafters will always have over random drops is the ability to make it custom to the wearer. In 5.10 I was always rocking mob gear with one (or two) stats I didnt really care about. Often times I would use the gear with better stats combo (according to my build) instead of the one with more stats (better and I assume harder to craft).

If I had the option to take it to a crafter and pay him to 'fit' it to my build I would do it. Reforging as you described would probably the best way to make that involve actual crafting instead of the more 'shuffle pips around' idea I had floating in my head.

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To flesh it out further. The dropped gear should have much less durability overall. So even with a crafter making the subcombine salvaged parts into a new item, it would again have less durability than a fully hand crafted item made from scratch.

 

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Posted (edited)

Early game crafted gear needs to at the very least be equivalent to War Tribe gear.

The entire point of War Tribe gear was to make it so you could get some armor and weapons if you didn't have crafting connections.

Basic and Intermediate weapons are completely useless at this point 😬

Edited by ZYBAK

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A middle of the road solution is to significantly impact the effectiveness of specialty seals in armor.  A full set could add 2 or 3 experimentation points as well as a handful of stats for even the most novice of crafters.  It would still require a time and resource investment to get there, but the crafters that make the effort could quickly get to a useful amount of points.  The barrier to entry could be further reduced by adding a seal slot to intermediate armor.  It never really made sense for artisans to be running around in full plate, anyway.

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Has ACE mentioned whether the current plan is for mobs to drop gear at all come launch?  I always thought the design plan was that either they didn't drop gear at all or dropped utter garbage that was essentially one step up from being naked and better suited for recycling for materials.  If the drop gear stays then it should all be Nerf brand with low durability and untrained crafting should produce similar quality with higher durability. 

I'd be just fine if they nixed drop gear all together; would put all on the same footing at launch but those training crafting would be relevant much earlier on even without a great amount of skill.  Basics training should provide just enough skill to make it worth passing mats to someone with the training as opposed to just crafting it with no skill yourself, to grease the wheels of the in-game economy. Perhaps a mechanic allowing player crafters to sell armor to NPCs could provide a pipeline for drop gear (with most durability used up upon drop from NPC), which would ensure that said gear quality is available directly from player crafters but with full durability; could even be a cool way to advertise for crafters since the item would presumably retain their stamp.

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Mobs could drop components, instead of finished gear (similar to necromancy additives), that could be given to a crafter and crafted. So, a nice loot drop would be a blue mace component to go with other mace components, and the crafter could assemble as usual. Over training time, the crafter would themselves be able to make blue mace components, with a much better rate of success.

What I am hearing is that crafters want to feel useful. The easiest way to be useful is to be necessary. If players do not have access to player crafters, put an NPC crafter in who does the same thing, but with fewer experimentation points.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

I think one of the actual issues people had, which wasn't always suggested as such, was that folks who didn't put a lot of time into coordinated logistics couldn't compete with organized groups who did.

Adding dropped equipment attempted to solve 2 things then -

1. Make it so people who couldn't or wouldn't self-organize on a level needed to be somewhat competitive could now get gear much more easily through mob farming.

2. People might get more satisfaction from mob farming and PvE activity through loot drops.

Organization isn't the problem. The problem is last time I played, the game died, and there was nobody left on any faction but one to organize with. Which resulted in even more people quitting because we all needed to change to new builds to reflect the reality that we'd be running solo 90% of the time, and for those not already running solo builds there was nobody to get that gear to us in a reasonable time frame.

Guilds that formerly had no issue gearing all of a sudden did because, nobody was playing the game.

You don't want mechanics set up in such a way that if there is a dip in the playerbase the game becomes nearly unplayable for anyone not running 8 accounts or whatever it takes to have every crafter. HOPEFULLY, come launch, hundreds or thousands of players come pouring into the game and this never is an issue. But we can't really say that for certain, nor that every campaign will be well populated. If you've learned one lesson from Pathfinder Online I would hope it's that games sometimes fall well short of their optimistic predictions of player-base growth.

It's good that now we are in a position where if the population dips players can be somewhat self-sufficient, making a recovery in population more likely as opposed to population losses compounding into even more population loss.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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12 hours ago, Andius said:

Organization isn't the problem. The problem is last time I played, the game died, and there was nobody left on any faction but one to organize with. Which resulted in even more people quitting because we all needed to change to new builds to reflect the reality that we'd be running solo 90% of the time, and for those not already running solo builds there was nobody to get that gear to us in a reasonable time frame.

Guilds that formerly had no issue gearing all of a sudden did because, nobody was playing the game.
 

 

None of the guilds I have played with had trouble gearing, we put in a sht ton of work. We routinely went up against people who rolled around in wartribe gear. We know this because they would talk about it on streams. Before wartribe gear they would just quit. After wartribe gear, they stuck around a little while longer and then quit.

Maybe after launch more people will have the interest and perseverence to put in the work?

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Posted (edited)

None of the GROUPs I took part in had issues gearing either. In-fact we were one of the only groups to show up in full gear to the the first siege of the no-import campaign I took part in. But when there were like 5 people active on the entire faction because the game basically died for awhile, then I did have issues getting gear.

Nice flex but it's kind of just that. Doesn't address the point I was making at all.

We shouldn't make the assumption that every campaign will have a high population that has the numbers it takes for each group to have a full set of crafters. We can HOPE that will be the case. But we shouldn't ASSUME that will be the case.

A lot of sandbox MMOs have gone down the of "this game won't be solo friendly" and I would daresay MOST games touting that in alpha in beta end up with a population that ends up making that decision horrible. It's worth it to make sure fun can be had solo.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Personally I think the current system is not 100% working perfectly but it isn't the "woe is me" dire situation that some people make it as far as the dropped gear vs crafted. Some of my reasons:

#1 Randomization elements - Dropped gear has the chance to have great stats, terrible stats, or a mixture. When i was first leveling my cleric i found tons of +spirit + attack power gear which is great until i realized that i need support power.... armor with high armor value but no anti-crit or or other stats i needed to make my character better. Dropped gear was a great intermediary but was terrible vs geared people. My stats were all over the place with what i could find. I think it is silly to point at 1 piece of gear and say look this 1 piece is amazing and ignore the 100+ others that have been tossed, sold, or sacrificed. That one may line up great but lets be honest it will take a lot of work to get all of your armor and weapon slots that way.

#2 Durability - For casual PVE players dropped gear is going to last a bit depending on how much they farm. For some pvp'ers the drop gear MAY last the entire trial. For players who play every night however even when you only play a few hours a night your dropped gear will lose durability fast and break. So even if you were able to farm and get your full set of great drops they are capped at 1000 durability and that goes faster than you think. The more you play with that gear the faster it will break. You can screen shot your amazing gear all day long or you can use it; and if you use it you will lose it. I have not seen crafted gear that has less than ~1200 durability and that was something my non-crafter made; average that i have seen is 1500-2000 (even the "omg look at this piece" had over 1500 and that is 50% more time that that piece is viable). 

#3 Not Normal power curve - If you look at games like  WOW and other MMOs there is a huge power curve as the game scales over time. This power curve scales the player to drive towards end game content getting better and better gear before they move to the next content for end game success. Those games PVP was always a side aspect and had to be massively changed to make it fun (IE pvp gear vs raid gear in WoW). However, In Crowfall the end game is PVP not PVE so it does not scale the same. By providing mid tier ( but easily destructible)  gear early it encourages players to get to PVP faster viably but it also encourages cooperation and social reliance by making it so that you NEED others to get the top end gear. They have on multiple occasions said that they want a guild/group player based game. Dregs is the important step to this as is the fact that you cannot easily be the master of all things (unless you have 7+ accounts). 

#4 Burn out - If you are able to get the best gear early and easily it de-values the gear and the crafting aspect of the game. By allowing the power creep to be slow not only does it place a high value on the crafters and gathers but also encourages evolving elements in the game over time. I have seen many many dominate guilds roll into a game blaze for a few months and then disappear because there was no way to progress or get better. Games like WOW prevent this by making more and more powerful or tricky bosses. This is not that type of game so the slow build for crafters stretches out the power gain and encourages players to keep at it and to keep progressing. You see this progression type in games like UO/starwars with the diminishing returns on the skill builds.

My solutions -

I think that getting to 1 max craft shouldn't take 4 months. Perhaps speed up passive gain while the account is active in game. (1x when offline 3x when online and active)

Lower the durability for dropped items to 750 instead of 1000, this would naturally boost the preference from dropped to crafted earlier.

Change the RNG on the drops (i have no idea the complexity of this) to limit the gear in tiers and make the top end for drops lower than the top end for basic crafting as well as making the floor for crafting higher than that of drops. This would make crafted gear more consistently better (once the craft was unlocked) and keep the enhanced durability which would make it last 2x longer than any dropped item. However, this would also allow for that great 1 off piece that you can use as a substitute when your crafted gear breaks but are not too afraid to take in your inventory with you in PVP for that JIC moment.

again my 2 cents

Dieec23

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Day 6 in crafting for me

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Once we get bone chance drop in another 2 days will start making gem/mineral potions to farm gems and then post any changes to Jewelcrafting if they have changed

[HoA] Zerg for the Win!!!!!!!!!!!! 😁

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Posted (edited)

30 is for plebs, its 35 or no dice.  Also, slime didn't waste dust on rerolls, he's just better.

Edited by Ble

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:37 PM, srathor said:

My solution would be to add in a salvage process for crafters. Break apart that weapon So that I get a blue axe head and a blue handle. Salvage the axe head itself and get 2 blue ingots of Ugrunite (Iron equivalent)

Get subcomponents from salvage of dropped gear, get mats from salvage of subcomponents. That lets crafters compete. Pull off that axe head. Custom make a handle that will do something people want. 

Salvage the handle into mats to make a new handle. Sure at a loss. Take 3 salvages with some random luck to make a new comparable axe. With less durability from a true Hand made axe from a skilled crafter with raw materials.

This addresses problems crafters face while stepping on the toes of harvesters in the process.

Harvesters must be the people who procure raw materials. Crafters must be the people who produce items from raw materials.

There are three separate and supposedly 🙄 equal paths to travel in Crowfall and that wont be realized by letting everyone be the best at at the other two roles specialization.

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