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srathor

How can my day 3 crafter compete....

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13 minutes ago, McTan said:

Nothing will make sure Crowfall has no crafters more than having them not be able to do anything they want to for days or weeks. In my guild, our primary crafters are pushing to not play this game, precisely because they cannot contribute due to passive training.

The unicorn of the crafter/pvper is rare enough, the ultra-rare unicorn of the crafter willing to wait out a pvp game when there are plenty of pve games they can compete in right away...don't think they exist.

One of your primary tester-crafters is the OP of this thread @srathor

I agree with that ...
Moreover we dont need green and blue in god's reach.
It will be way better for everyone to remove them from the loot table and add some early recibe to upgrade with from wartribe into green.

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15 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Day 1??!! I would propose that there won't be such a thing as a "crafter" then. The danger of such a low barrier of entry is everyone just makes their own.

You are asking two professions that are suppose to be big part of the game to sit on the sidelines while they wait for the time to expire.  Fighters can just get in and level up to 30, and be viable.  A crafter can't level to 30 and be anything useful.  The fun of being a crafter is the stragegy of it, finding ways to max your bonuses to make the best gear.  Spending time getting the mats or finding people to work with to get the mats.  Not sitting around waiting for a timer to run out.

Games can have churn, and you need constant people to replace the people that leave, if it is a hard barrier to get into crafting then you will start to find the world devoid of crafters which can cause people that rely on the equipment quit in frustration.

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4 of my accounts are dedicated to crafting.  I absolutely love that I can level all my vessels to 30 using War Tribe gear.  That said, I have no problem with War Tribe gear being capped at green or white quality though, or having reduced durability.    But I don't think that'll help crafters much.  

Earlier Blixtev posted a couple of things that both strike me as off.  First, that there are two tiers of crafting professions (and that jewelcrafting is T1. LOL - it takes longer to make decent jewelry than any other crafting profession).  Second, that it only takes 60 days at 1x training to max out a crafting profession.  That number means it only took 20 days at 3x, and I'm pretty sure it took longer than that.  Can we see the math on that, please Blixtev?

The experimentation difficulty inversion for rarity of components introduced in 5.100 feels wrong when we look at it with untrained toons.  To make a white item with any increased difficulty is ridiculously hard, and even choosing not to increase the difficulty results in more crit fails and fails than successes to start with.  Perhaps the inversion is fine, but the starting point for no difficulty increase is too low.   Making a runetool with 5 pips and no difficulty increase should not result in a pick with 9 mining on it, given an intermediate pick is guaranteed 10, and uses less than a third of the mats.   Starting crafters should be able to make decent white gear out of white mats.  A decent bespoke white should compare nicely to the average War Tribe drop if you reduce War Tribe gear to white or green rarity.  That would let crafters learn their crafts and feel useful without having to overhaul the crafting system much.  Maybe a starting runecrafter makes white tools with +15 mining (for example) and 200 durability to start.

You don't have to redo everything - nerf the top end of war tribe drops to greens or even whites.  And reduce the number of crit fails and fails on white gear when the crafter doesn't increase the difficulty at all.

 

 

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15 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Day 1??!! I would propose that there won't be such a thing as a "crafter" then. The danger of such a low barrier of entry is everyone just makes their own.

What forces what lowbie crafters do to be "make" new things at the start? The problem is there is a complete lack of ANYTHING at all productive or contributory to do on day one that is useful.

Perhaps the early game answer is to take something else, put it in with some materials, and try to improve the stats, or repair what is getting damaged, or as Srathor suggested, salvage. Though it sounds awesome, salvage to sub components would have a huge issue with the substats and is probably WAY too much work at this stage, breakdown to recover some basic mats to work with, doesn't sound too complex. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Day 1??!! I would propose that there won't be such a thing as a "crafter" then. The danger of such a low barrier of entry is everyone just makes their own.

How is this any different from players looting their own on day one?

The bottom end of crafting is still, effectively, not a "real" crafter and can't make anything of value. If you can't make anything better than drops, you're not really engaging in crafting as active play. You're as much a "crafter" as anyone else. The only difference is people training combat or gathering are seeing usable incremental gains from their invested points from day one while you're waiting for that magic skill point completion that allows you to compete with the baseline every player can provide for themselves. A little more harvesting or combat stats is useful in any increment, while a little more crafting stats is only useful if that increment allows you to produce items that surpass the ubiquity of drops.

Consider that the majority of new players will be receiving those drops without even actively seeking them out as a result of farming for xp or gold. Dropped gear essentially sort of falls in your lap while you're trying to make money to afford crafted gear. If I make a white sword, my customer is going to go kill mobs for gold, and in the process is likely to find a sword better than the one I'm trying to sell them in the process. This means the customer base for white swords or any of their associated components is virtually nonexistent.

Making the low end of the pool more accessible wouldn't change that paradigm. It would just make becoming a "real" crafter more accessible by ensuring that I CAN make a better sword, but a still subpar ability to make anything that's not crafted by blacksmithing.

Unless I buy a bunch of accounts, but TBH multi-accounting already breaks the interreliant model of training so it isn't really a factor.

Finishing the half-complete copy/paste of the EVE skill metaprogression and using a system of starting boosts would solve this problem, as I noted above. You could be a blacksmith able to compete with loot on day one, but you'd also still need gold, materials, and other crafters on day one to complete the loop due to how you've designed the interrelated nature of components, combat, and harvesting. This would mean you could opt in to shortcutting a PART of your kit, but not the whole thing.

You'd even create markets for other new crafters in the process. I am an entry level smith, but I still need someone else on day one to be an entry level woodworker or leathercrafter to make some components for me. This approach actively diversifies the skill base earlier and more efficiently, which is probably why CCP and other settled on it in conjuction with passive training. Some people will spawn in with the same ability to craft swords superior to loot and won't be my customers, but a larger number of players will spawn in that have chosen in stead to spend that initial spec in something that isn't smithing, and WILL be in the market for my equipment or components.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Day 1??!! I would propose that there won't be such a thing as a "crafter" then. The danger of such a low barrier of entry is everyone just makes their own.

The other problem with waiting to become a certain type of crafter like necromancer, is that if you hate it, you just wasted 2 months for nothing.  There needs to be a system to allow for trying out professions like there is for trying out classes.  I wanted to play the druid when I first started.  But after playing one to 30 I found the cleric more fun.  I would hate to vest 2 months in something that I realize I do not like.

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I suspect the answer is something we have ordered up for another system,

The goals are;
To not destroy all the progression we have built for crafters,
make the crafters relevant early on,
in the process of making them relevant early, don't make the process so trivial the combantants bypass the need for crafters.

So basically have them do the thing they want to be doing in lieu of waiting.
Which sounds like crafting stuff and being rewarded with both character and passive skill XP.


Thomas Blair
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2 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

I suspect the answer is something we have ordered up for another system,

The goals are;
To not destroy all the progression we have built for crafters,
make the crafters relevant early on,
in the process of making them relevant early, don't make the process so trivial the combantants bypass the need for crafters.

So basically have them do the thing they want to be doing in lieu of waiting.
Which sounds like crafting stuff and being rewarded with both character and passive skill XP.

So passive training becomes active training for crafters?

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17 minutes ago, Extintor said:

So passive training becomes active training for crafters?

I’m glad I’m not the only who didn’t understand that. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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I wonder what difference it would make if the difficulty were normalized based on quality. Right now, common is more difficult to craft with than higher qualities. What if instead, common was the easiest to craft with, but instead of going back to less than 10 pips per line, the total percentage we can achieve is capped based on the quality? Currently, all percentages are capped at 120.8%, regardless of quality. What if common was a lot easier to craft with, but capped at 80%?

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Well, common quality has 10 pips per line now because they wanted to reduce the difference between legendary and common. It's a difficult puzzle to match all the goals, I guess.

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Posted (edited)

 

47 minutes ago, thomasblair said:


Which sounds like crafting stuff and being rewarded with both character and passive skill XP.

Do you mean that crafting something gives character (vessel) XP and passive skill XP? As in, my passive skill tree advances when I craft something in addition to the skill points I accumulate over time passively?

Looking forward to learning more.

Edited by Yoink

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My whole thought on thread is Err, whys is a 3 day old char expecting to be any good, PvPr will spend months honing skill rotations and timing down to a tick.

My thoughts what for your passives to tick up in the mean time, hoard good crafting materials do some experimenting with crap stuff to look for hidden gems noone found yet (not likely but... )

Spend time  maybe just acquiring stuff, like alchemy potions to boost your crafting when you actually start the good stuff.

Apprentices dont like doing the hard yards to get to the end they expect to be able to make good poorly made dergs from the get go and arent happy when they have to sweep the floors any master crafter knows  RL and RPG knows you dont get instant skills

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58 minutes ago, Ehecatl said:

My whole thought on thread is Err, whys is a 3 day old char expecting to be any good, PvPr will spend months honing skill rotations and timing down to a tick.

My thoughts what for your passives to tick up in the mean time, hoard good crafting materials do some experimenting with crap stuff to look for hidden gems noone found yet (not likely but... )

Spend time  maybe just acquiring stuff, like alchemy potions to boost your crafting when you actually start the good stuff.

Apprentices dont like doing the hard yards to get to the end they expect to be able to make good poorly made dergs from the get go and arent happy when they have to sweep the floors any master crafter knows  RL and RPG knows you dont get instant skills

There is a difference between skill and waiting.  Yes it will take to to get good at pvp.  But everyone pvping now will be great when the game releases and is wiped.  But crafters are gated behind time.  No skill is going to make u a great crafter at release.  Image being told u can't pvp for 60 days while u wait for a skill that will allow u to pvp.  U instead have to stay in GR.  That would suck.

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1 hour ago, Ehecatl said:

My whole thought on thread is Err, whys is a 3 day old char expecting to be any good, PvPr will spend months honing skill rotations and timing down to a tick.

My thoughts what for your passives to tick up in the mean time, hoard good crafting materials do some experimenting with crap stuff to look for hidden gems noone found yet (not likely but... )

Spend time  maybe just acquiring stuff, like alchemy potions to boost your crafting when you actually start the good stuff.

Apprentices dont like doing the hard yards to get to the end they expect to be able to make good poorly made dergs from the get go and arent happy when they have to sweep the floors any master crafter knows  RL and RPG knows you dont get instant skills

Ahh but the difference is that as pvpers most of us are very familliar with the mechanics of the class. I can pick up a knight, level it, slot my discs and be pretty much good to go minus some stats and armor. A crafter that knows his trade inside and out is completely fubar until the passive training catches up. Think of it like I don't get my class abilities until passive training catches up and so I am forced to run around with only lmb attacks and one or two basic skills.

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2 hours ago, Ehecatl said:

My whole thought on thread is Err, whys is a 3 day old char expecting to be any good, PvPr will spend months honing skill rotations and timing down to a tick.

People aren't asking to be good crafters on day 3. They are asking to not be useless for weeks.


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18 minutes ago, Jah said:

 

People aren't asking to be good crafters on day 3. They are asking to not be useless for weeks.

I expect myself to be useless on day 3, this comes from being a full qual heavy fabricator and 2 year of self taught black smithing which im avg to mid high lvl. more likely poorly made dergs if I think proper blacksmithing skills are are lost art I wish proper black smiths where stil about its a lost art

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1 minute ago, Ehecatl said:

I expect myself to be useless on day 3

How long would you like to remain useless as crafter?

Should combat characters be useless as well?


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36 minutes ago, Jah said:

How long would you like to remain useless as crafter?

Should combat characters be useless as well?

they are  useless,

once the wipe happens there are changes so skill rotations arent exact

overall end game i actually consider crafters more important to pvp players..... so slower starters higher end.... end game pvp are a dime a dozen but mint well skilled crafted are a rare commodity 

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