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Littleshoes

So uh...how close is this to beta again?

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7 hours ago, KDSProm said:

Is the game ready to be 'played'? Not by a long shot due to many broken things, some inherited and some introduced with the new patch.

ACE markets it like it is playable.

7 hours ago, KDSProm said:

Judging Crowfall by your regular wow clones/wannabees  out-there is wrong as it's actually a game that brings NEW stuff to the MMO Genre and new stuff takes time to make.

Bottom line - you won't play the same map twice!

Maybe I'm jaded, but I find little about crowfall to be "new." Obviously most of it is technically new as they created it, but likely have seen it done similar if not better in another game. The few semi-unique features aren't miles a head of what has been around for 20 years.

I'd rather take one very well designed world map then "unique" maps that look 95% same and are dead/empty looking. Guess I don't get excited if a clump of trees is 50 ft to the left or right. For a game supposed to be about strategy and PVP, sad to see no map design to encourage it. Choke points?

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I get your point  @APE and agree with the advantages of handmade design. However, in my experience  playing on same map becomes boring over time.

The POI random distribution makes for strategic choices on which city to choose. Random Resource distribution makes exploration a real game. So when I draw the line I think the random solution gives more flavor and play-ability in the long run.


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2 minutes ago, KDSProm said:

I get your point  @APE and agree with the advantages of handmade design. However, in my experience  playing on same map becomes boring over time.

The POI random distribution makes for strategic choices on which city to choose. Random Resource distribution makes exploration a real game. So when I draw the line I think the random solution gives more flavor and play-ability in the long run.

We all have our own tastes. I like some variety but considering how popular other games are with one map (League of Legends) or ever growing handmade worlds (every other MMO), it doesn't seem to be a huge problem to a game's health.

I can only hope they'll add more biomes, POI, land formations, whatever over time, but with how long it has taken to get this far I don't know if that is another couple years down the road and if the game will even make it that long.

If resources were random and not static I'd agree about exploring, but doesn't seem to be the case unless that has changed. Haven't run any harvesting loops for a while. POI placement and land control can definitely be interesting but again it seems like the maps are not that exciting to make it so. Things are random, but there isn't enough tings to randomize, nor interesting space to place them in.

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 There are ways to procedurally generate maps while retaining a good amount of creative control.

Path of Exile built a great example which they showed in a few talks like this one:

 

Sadly, I feel the current world in Crowfall is a bit too generic and bland. It's mostly forests and rocks placed randomly with monsters spawns spreaded around. And the spawn themselves seems to always be the same camp, or the same ravine.

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17 hours ago, Littleshoes said:

1- they should already be in the game, a tooltip box at the least(showing you what you can do and where you can go).

2- shouldn't have to go to an external source to learn about a game so...no.

3- judging by how the game looks, my graphics card SHOULD be able to run it, and beta is just around the corner so..where's the optimization? they have also had 5 years to make it run well, it doesn't.

4- and those stations open up into...a menu.

5- it has been 4-5 years of development, they should be nearing completion and the game currently sucks, sorry if that hurts your easily bruised feelings, i don't like this game (as it is now) you do, get over it.

6- every single thing i listed was constructive feedback (hidden behind a heaping load of contempt.)

just in case you don't believe me here ya go, i used shorter sentences for you, not to mention numbered em.

1- (some) gathering sfx is unsynced from the animation.

2-the UI is horrible, it needs changing.

3- the map is hard to understand, needs changing.

4- small tutorials need to be a thing asap to show people what to do and where to go. (it has been 4-5 years and beta is just around the corner, do it.)

5- Performance is horrible on a computer that should be able to eat this game for breakfast. (optimize your damn game.)

6- Gathering AND Combat take place outside of menus, crafting should as well.(get creative and find a freaking solution, cause as it stands i will NEVER enjoy crafting.)

7- i don't like the art direction, sue me. it's dark and muted and boring.

8- i don't enjoy not being able to curse, it's a major part of my vocabulary ( i've gone to multiple sites to learn curse words cause it's fun) and they have taken that away from me (on the forum and i assume in game)

9- i paid 60$ for a founders pack because i thought the concept was cool, i'm now regretting spending those 60$. i truly hope this game becomes good, but i just don't think it will (judging by where they've gotten in 4-5 years.)

1. Then don't play. This is alpha. Some many things have been changing that putting development into something that would also constantly be change is asinine and unrealistic.

2. But you do even in released games. Or you stumble around until you learn it. The people who want to excel are not waiting for the game to tell them how to play. So do you.

3. They didn't have nearly all the stuff in game that is in now. Optimizing, like putting in tutorials, have to come after the systems are in place. Honestly is sounds like you have no clue what development is and you sound entitled. 

4. The game isn't going to hold you hand at release either. There is a reason some stuff in crafting is named experimentation. You're expected to piece the stuff together to know how to do things correctly. They have never been shy about telling people this.

5. That development time is also an average for AAA companies. 5 years ago they were just telling us their idea for the game to sell us on it. Yea it sucks having to wait, esp being here from start. But that's the crap you gotta deal with. The devs don't like it any better when our impatience gets the better of us. Though most of us agree it should be further along.

 

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14 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I have to ask how you'd envision any form of crafting to work without a menu.

You seem really upset about the crafting menu and I've never heard this take before. What game can you point to that doesn't use a menu for crafting and where can I play it? This idea intrigues me. Every single crafting system I've ever used takes place in some kind of crafting menu.

there was a surivival game awhile back (i can't remember what it was called) where you dropped items on the floor in certain quantities and combinations, and those made different things, that's one way to do it. there are other things they could do as well, let's use blacksmithing as an example, you could mine coal and use it in the furnace to control the temp, different temps provide different stats and different metals have different stats depending on what temp it is, then when it comes to shaping your weapon(on an anvil) it could take the form of a rythm game where you time button presses. Runemaking, how about they make different runes that you combine together to form an effect, so let's say you walk up to a rune crafting table, instead of taking you into a menu it zooms in the on the table, the table has 5 slots. in those slots you can put different runic letters, each runic letter does something different and each slot makes it do something different as well, now suddenly you have to decipher an entirely new language and only some crafters will have access to certain runes because they are the only ones who have figured out that recipe. regardless of what they do, i just don't want to have to navigate yet ANOTHER menu to craft.

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1 minute ago, Littleshoes said:

there was a surivival game awhile back (i can't remember what it was called) where you dropped items on the floor in certain quantities and combinations, and those made different things, that's one way to do it. there are other things they could do as well, let's use blacksmithing as an example, you could mine coal and use it in the furnace to control the temp, different temps provide different stats and different metals have different stats depending on what temp it is, then when it comes to shaping your weapon(on an anvil) it could take the form of a rythm game where you time button presses. Runemaking, how about they make different runes that you combine together to form an effect, so let's say you walk up to a rune crafting table, instead of taking you into a menu it zooms in the on the table, the table has 5 slots. in those slots you can put different runic letters, each runic letter does something different and each slot makes it do something different as well, now suddenly you have to decipher an entirely new language and only some crafters will have access to certain runes because they are the only ones who have figured out that recipe. regardless of what they do, i just don't want to have to navigate yet ANOTHER menu to craft.

Those all sound like really irritating ways to do something a menu can do more efficiently. It reminds me of how the default minecraft system is a 3x3 grid, and later they added a straight crafting menu because using the grid, remembering all the combinations in the grid, etc. is just an irritating experience when you're using it repeatedly. The 3x3 grid is certainly more immersive, but its also a worse interface for the thing its actually doing.

Faced with a choice between repeating the same complicated hand gestures over and over to make swords or clinking through some menus few buttons to make a sword.

CF's system is already hypercomplex past the point of the menu and already works like your rune crafting example. Different combinations of materials confer different stats depending on what you're making, what kind of slot the materials are going in, as well as some slots being hidden unless you've got the right items equipped.

With the current system I already need to reference a big spreadsheet of discovered crafting combinations. In any of the above systems I'd need an even bigger spreadsheet alongside having to play a minigame every time i craft something. In my personal opinion that sounds really annoying when I'm attempting to make 15 different items for 15 different players and already have enough on my mind just not screwing up all the orders on my list.

Leave the minigames to products more focused around them. Cook serve delicious is a great game, but I don't want to have to play cook serve delicious every time I make a bowl of stew in an mmo.


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28 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

1. Then don't play. This is alpha. Some many things have been changing that putting development into something that would also constantly be change is asinine and unrealistic.

2. But you do even in released games. Or you stumble around until you learn it. The people who want to excel are not waiting for the game to tell them how to play. So do you.

3. They didn't have nearly all the stuff in game that is in now. Optimizing, like putting in tutorials, have to come after the systems are in place. Honestly is sounds like you have no clue what development is and you sound entitled. 

4. The game isn't going to hold you hand at release either. There is a reason some stuff in crafting is named experimentation. You're expected to piece the stuff together to know how to do things correctly. They have never been shy about telling people this.

5. That development time is also an average for AAA companies. 5 years ago they were just telling us their idea for the game to sell us on it. Yea it sucks having to wait, esp being here from start. But that's the crap you gotta deal with. The devs don't like it any better when our impatience gets the better of us. Though most of us agree it should be further along.

 

1- don't worry, i'm not going to, also, how long does it really take to type out a few instructions and how many people really have to be taken away from other tasks to do that?

2- and i've called them out on their hogwash as well, if you can't learn the systems of the game in the game then that's hogwash. also, i don't care about excelling at a GAME but i guess that shows me how you play games.

3- true, i've never worked on a game before, have you? and if so can i see what pile of crap you made? again, how long does it take to type out some freaking instructions? also, it has been 5 years of development and beta is just around the corner according to them and the game runs like hot garbage.

4- when the hell did i ask them to hold my hand? i'm asking them to make crafting take place in world like the other 2 "pillars" of the game, which is a lot less hand holdy than clicking some freaking buttons.

5- Indie devs have released in this time-frame before while doing the some of the same stuff as crowfall, honestly not a lot of crowfall is original. There have been games with procedural maps before, there have been games that have been mmos before, and there have been games where 1000s of people can be on the same server fighting before. so they're not inventing anything overly new, at most they are combining aspects of previous mmos/games and creating a new game out of those concepts, therefore i'm not gonna cut them any slack on development time.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Those all sound like really irritating ways to do something a menu can do more efficiently. It reminds me of how the default minecraft system is a 3x3 grid, and later they added a straight crafting menu because using the grid, remembering all the combinations in the grid, etc. is just an irritating experience when you're using it repeatedly. The 3x3 grid is certainly more immersive, but its also a worse interface for the thing its actually doing.

Faced with a choice between repeating the same complicated hand gestures over and over to make swords or clinking through some menus few buttons to make a sword.

CF's system is already hypercomplex past the point of the menu and already works like your rune crafting example. Different combinations of materials confer different stats depending on what you're making, what kind of slot the materials are going in, as well as some slots being hidden unless you've got the right items equipped.

With the current system I already need to reference a big spreadsheet of discovered crafting combinations. In any of the above systems I'd need an even bigger spreadsheet alongside having to play a minigame every time i craft something. In my personal opinion that sounds really annoying when I'm attempting to make 15 different items for 15 different players and already have enough on my mind just not screwing up all the orders on my list.

Leave the minigames to products more focused around them. Cook serve delicious is a great game, but I don't want to have to play cook serve delicious every time I make a bowl of stew in an mmo.

and i don't want to have to stare at a menu or use a spreadheet to exp one of the "pillars" of play. i want to be in the game moving my character around and interacting with the world as i craft something, not staring at a menu and twisting different knobs to see what generic piece of crap it shats out.

PS, i come to games for fun, not for efficiency ergo , idc if the crafting system is less efficient so long as it's more immersive and fun to interact with. especially if they tout it as one of the "pillars" of their game.

Edited by Littleshoes

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

That's sounds really annoying but I guess I should look up a video.

EverQuest II released in November 2004.

It featured adventurer / crafter classes, much like Crowfall, in that it was promoted that you could play as both or either solely if you desired.

Crafting Tutorial Quest :

Notice the skills at the bottom of the crafting window. They are active skills, used at appropriate times and in real time....just like a combat class would do when fighting an enemy. The work station is animated to reflect what is transpiring with the crafting process (ie, faults, errors, successes) as well as the active crafting skills the player uses being animated.....this was done 16 years ago....

How to Craft in Everquest 2

Everquest 2 crafting

 

Its just very sad to see that Crowfall thinks you can have a decent play experience as a full time crafter character in their game and there is nothing at all to support it except for clicking menus. Im not saying that even EQ2's system would be sufficient (16 years later) but Crowfall should have something similar that is expounded upon to give crafters a legitimate play experience as long as they intend to promote the game as playable as a fully focused crafter.

Edited by Toadwart

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I personally dislike active minigames for crafting, so that's a preference thing I don't agree with. My favorite crafting mmo was Star Wars Galaxies - I really enjoyed being able to set up and experiment on what I want in a menu, put in the resources, turn on the factory and go do something else until items are made.


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40 minutes ago, miraluna said:

I personally dislike active minigames for crafting, so that's a preference thing I don't agree with. My favorite crafting mmo was Star Wars Galaxies - I really enjoyed being able to set up and experiment on what I want in a menu, put in the resources, turn on the factory and go do something else until items are made.

Which is fine and the floated idea of blueprints might allow something like that, but for now we have click click click click click system that locks people into staring at a UI window.

For those that enjoy crafting and don't see it as a chore of fire n forget task, it would be nice to make it a bit more interesting visually if not the actual interaction itself. Like how harvesting has/had pips and buffs, hot spots to target and things that elevate it from hold a key and watch netflix.

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EverQuest 2 crafting was basically an easy "fight" versus the item you were crafting. So you had to hit skills to "damage" it basically and defeating the item produced the desifred result. Of course you didn't get a menu, cause it was a minigame. In fact, you could die to the forge. It happened to me a few times. It was a kind of crafting a guess, neither good nor bad, just a matter of taste. Pretty slow, for sure and tedious after a while. 

 

I agree that Crowfall might use a better looking crafting interface, a more satisfying bouquet of sounds and "dings" while you do it, but we all know where the problem lies (lack of money), so not gonna happen.

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17 hours ago, Toadwart said:

EverQuest II released in November 2004.

It featured adventurer / crafter classes, much like Crowfall, in that it was promoted that you could play as both or either solely if you desired.

Crafting Tutorial Quest :

Notice the skills at the bottom of the crafting window. They are active skills, used at appropriate times and in real time....just like a combat class would do when fighting an enemy. The work station is animated to reflect what is transpiring with the crafting process (ie, faults, errors, successes) as well as the active crafting skills the player uses being animated.....this was done 16 years ago....

How to Craft in Everquest 2

Everquest 2 crafting

 

Its just very sad to see that Crowfall thinks you can have a decent play experience as a full time crafter character in their game and there is nothing at all to support it except for clicking menus. Im not saying that even EQ2's system would be sufficient (16 years later) but Crowfall should have something similar that is expounded upon to give crafters a legitimate play experience as long as they intend to promote the game as playable as a fully focused crafter.

Matter of preference here: This looks annoying as custard to do, but I can see why some people would like it.


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17 hours ago, Littleshoes said:

and i don't want to have to stare at a menu or use a spreadheet to exp one of the "pillars" of play. i want to be in the game moving my character around and interacting with the world as i craft something, not staring at a menu and twisting different knobs to see what generic piece of crap it shats out.

PS, i come to games for fun, not for efficiency ergo , idc if the crafting system is less efficient so long as it's more immersive and fun to interact with. especially if they tout it as one of the "pillars" of their game.

Okay but... how is the minigame system not... twisting different knobs with even less feedback and more grind? At the end of the day everything you pose as examples is an even longer and less precise process than the one we already have isn't it?

I get the jist of what you're saying, that you value immersion over consistency.

Personally, I don't. I had plenty of immersion gathering, trading, farming and fighting off ganks to get all the materials. Crafting, at least for me isn't the journey, it's the payoff. I want that payoff to be as swift and unobtrusive as possible.

Its the same reason why if I play Minecraft now I use the list in stead of the grid. The grid is more immersive, but also takes a poorly made dergsload longer to craft stuff, and generally when I craft stuff the satisfaction isn't in the making of the item, but the having of the item. I COULD sit there and drop stuff on that grid over and over to make whatever items I need, but I don't really want to sit at the crafting bench any longer than I have to, you know?


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Okay but... how is the minigame system not... twisting different knobs with even less feedback and more grind? At the end of the day everything you pose as examples is an even longer and less precise process than the one we already have isn't it?

I get the jist of what you're saying, that you value immersion over consistency.

Personally, I don't. I had plenty of immersion gathering, trading, farming and fighting off ganks to get all the materials. Crafting, at least for me isn't the journey, it's the payoff. I want that payoff to be as swift and unobtrusive as possible.

Its the same reason why if I play Minecraft now I use the list in stead of the grid. The grid is more immersive, but also takes a poorly made dergsload longer to craft stuff, and generally when I craft stuff the satisfaction isn't in the making of the item, but the having of the item. I COULD sit there and drop stuff on that grid over and over to make whatever items I need, but I don't really want to sit at the crafting bench any longer than I have to, you know?

you said it yourself, a minigame system isn't twisting knobs because it would be an actual game inside the game, i don't come to games to feel like i'm clicking buttons or counting stats (even if that is what i'm doing in RL) but we're different people you want crafting to be a quick and painless process that you do occasionally after doing your main stuff, i want it to stand up as its own thing, i don't want it to be just some sideshow attraction that you do when you've done everything else, i want to be drawn in and entertained by it and that would require it to be more immersive and fun to do (for me at least). This would of course turn off people like you and to that i say, so what? the dev team has said before they don't want one person to be able to do everything anyway. and it sounds to me like you enjoy the rest of the game just fine. well i want to be a crafter, and it's very boring currently. if i wanted to watch a progress bar tick by after pressing some buttons i'd uninstall the game and reinstall it over and over again. i'd get that same level of enjoyment out of that that i do from the current crafting system. TBH i'm tired of games saying they want crafting to be a main activity up there with everything else in game and then going ahead and doing the same basic freaking crafting system that has been around forever just because it's the easiest thing to do.

Edited by Littleshoes

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Okay but... how is the minigame system not... twisting different knobs with even less feedback and more grind? At the end of the day everything you pose as examples is an even longer and less precise process than the one we already have isn't it?

Do you consider "combat" to be a mini game?

Crafters should expect their own spell books with their own spells and skills. They should expect to be able to load out their bars with said skills to complete whatever challenge lies ahead of them in the production of their craft. They should expect an interactive play session just like combat players expect...

Crafting is supposed to be a fully supported and fleshed out way for people to play the game if they choose that role. It isnt remotely that. It is clicking menus that cover the majority of the screen and literally nothing else.

Would you or anyone for that matter accept combat in crowfall if all you needed to or could do was click some pop up menus?

Crafting in most games is a mini game, so it can get away with a few crappy menus and people will let it ride. Those games do not promote being a full time crafter as being a supported playstyle. Being a crafter is supposed to be as viable as playing a combat role in crowfall and it absolutely isnt anywhere near that and there is nothing that I have seen mentioned plans to address that.

Crowfall's crafters will be mostly alternate accounts, set aside and logged in only to craft for a few moments when needed. Thats how badly designed and developed the crafting side of character development is. There is zero reason to "main" a crafter and pretty much nothing for you to do in game should you choose to be rebellious and do it for luls, except click the menus blocking your view of the game world.

Edited by Toadwart

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Do you consider "combat" to be a mini game?

Crafters should expect their own spell books with their own spells and skills. They should expect to be able to load out their bars with said skills to complete whatever challenge lies ahead of them in the production of their craft. They should expect an interactive play session just like combat players expect...

Crafting is supposed to be a fully supported and fleshed out way for people to play the game if they choose that role. It isnt remotely that. It is clicking menus that cover the majority of the screen and literally nothing else.

Would you or anyone for that matter accept combat in crowfall if all you needed to or could do was click some pop up menus?

Crafting in most games is a mini game, so it can get away with a few crappy menus and people will let it ride. Being a crafter is supposed to be as viable as playing a combat role in crowfall and it absolutely isnt anywhere near that and there is nothing that I have seen mentioned plans to address that.

I mean I hear you guys on this, my point is I'm not sure its a very popular position, even among people who making crafting their primary gameplay activity.

You're asking for something that is extremely rare, even among very crafting heavy games in the genre as if its crazy it isn't in the game, and likely doing so against whatever metrics are being used to figure out what people playing this particular game actually like.

In general, the consensus seems to be that crafters value customization, trademarking, and efficiency more than the actual act of crafting. EVE has more dedicated crafters and industrialists per pound than any game ever and crafting in EVE has zero customization and runs entirely passively. Crafters tend to like scale and profit margins, not so much the actual bolting together or a laser or writing runes with a wiimote, because the primary gameplay of crafting for systems capable of supporting "primary crafters" as a player type isn't crafting, its playing economies. That's generally why people craft. Not to make a sword, but to get filthy rich making swords cheaper, making better swords, or simply inventing new kinds of unique swords that nobody else is offering.

Also note that EVE, the de facto standard for a thriving MMO economy lacks any crafting ships (eve's version of classes/equipment) whatsoever. Crafting related upgrades come entirely in the form of facilities and passive training stats, while crafters generally train in other types of economic craft for harvesting or cargo hauling. Again, because the primary gameplay loop of crafting isn't so much the crafting as it is the selling of the stuff and acquisition and transport of product and materials. I was a profitable crafter in EVE and it was pretty much my entire gameplay session every day, hauling, mining, defending, making deals with other players, making sure I was making the right products for market demand, and making sure I audited and paid my harvesters.

Crafting, or specifically, the business of selling crafted items, is an inherently PvP activity, even in games with no other form of PvP. What you're asking is to slow it down so people have to spend more time farming mobs sword minigames before they play the cutthroat economic game they actually showed up to play. Its going to go over about as well as making an argument that players level too fast.

Obviously you two seem to want it, but in five years on this forum you're the ONLY two that seem to want it. That's not a very strong case for changing it IMO.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Obviously you two seem to want it, but in five years on this forum you're the ONLY two that seem to want it. That's not a very strong case for changing it IMO.

I've seen others suggest it along with harvesting and could possibly be why harvesting isn't as completely brain dead as most MMOs. Appears that the challenge and complexity of Crowfall's crafting comes from having a million steps to make an item along with passive training and RNG. It is much better then many games, but still lacks the interactive game play that other games have done. My guess is most don't even think about such things because so few games have tried, especially in modern gaming. EQ2/SWG and games known for their crafting aren't exactly making headlines.

You seem to be combining two different roles or maybe more. Being a merchant and a crafter are different depending on the game or individual. A design can clump them together, but they don't have to.

I've played a bit of Albion Online and playing the market (at least when I was active) could be a full time role. Zero need to craft, harvest, PVP, anything. Just buying/selling. There were also people that would transport goods from one area to another as the auction houses weren't linked. Thanks to the AH/guild, people can craft without going out into the world. Harvesting is a relaxing game play for many and they just veg out and try to outsmart gankers with their time.

Eastern games like ArcheAge and Black Desert have a lot of content that doesn't involved PVP directly that makes things I usually find mundane to be quite entertaining.

Camelot Unchained on paper wants to do more of what these two are describing. They want to make crafting an experience. Ashes of Creation also has a lot of features planned. Will be funny if Crowfall which so far has hyped up crafting as one of the strengths/unique features will get out done by these others that just list crafting as one of many things in the game.

I have zero hope that ACE is going to make crafting more then what it is so actual crafters will either take it for what it is or get drawn to more interesting systems when other games come on line. Unfortunately that seems to apply to most of what Crowfall is made up of.

 

Edited by APE

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4 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

my entire gameplay session every day, hauling, mining, defending, making deals with other players, making sure I was making the right products for market demand, and making sure I audited and paid my harvesters.

This is similar to what my main gameplay was as a crafter in SWG, without the global auction house. It was managing harvesters, coordinating with suppliers, trading to other crafters (components), designing my shop and what to stock, and building relationships with customers. I wasn't trying to make the most money, it was all about the community for me. Not sure how I would get any of that with a mini-game!


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