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PopeUrban

Caravans are dissapointing and feel terrible to use.

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Even assuming the AI didn't get stuck on every little thing, a herd of uncontrollable autofollow NPCS is a terrible experience to fight over.

Try leading a gang of these through a war tribe camp to simulate a pvp encounter. Now imagine replacing the war tribe mobs with intelligent players.

Try simply running in a straight line and watch as your caravan constantly unleashes from you.

The mere act of leading these things through an open field feels terrible as you're constantly stutter stepping, checking behind you to make sure they're still in range, and generally engaging in every single thing people hate about babysitting NPCs. The way this works is exactly why people hate escort quests.

Why isn't this a vehicle? A vehicle would have its own built in speed and obey the owner's command directly so you wouldn't need to constantly fiddle with it, worry about range, lose any target you're fighting because you're surrounded by a wall of pork when you're trying to shoot someone, etc.

 

For some reason I expected this:

Crowfall-Caravan-Concept-1080x675.jpg

And I got this:

 

 

I was pretty excited at the prospect of high speed hijinks, stealing carts, and playing highwayman. What I got was a system that seems actively hostile to everything fun implied by the use of the word caravan.

This mechanic needs several more passes.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

This mechanic needs several more passes.

I haven't wanted to go full negative on this, but why did they go this direction.

They added one of if not the worst type of quests in a game that wasn't supposed to have quests or at least not this mundane.

Much like the frostweaver mystery tech holding up the class for years to see it be a rehash of druid orbs and AOEs, they hyped up caravans and they are literally escort quests that games have had for years.

When older and upcoming games have full animal & wagon systems, this is let down. Albion, Black Desert, Archeage, and even Ashes of Creation all have better looking forms of transport.

If this game is going to lack the majority of content that fills play time, I expect the core content to be as good if not better then other games.

Transporting goods should look good and be more then click a npc and attempt to drag it across the map be it it draws PVP or not.

Good first attempt, but really hope there is more planned.

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If you're looking for a baseline of "how to do resource transportation" Archeage is IMO the gold standard. For a game that did almost every other thing wrong, the cargo hauling mechanics and pvp were a fantastic design that was executed extremely well.


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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I was pretty excited at the prospect of high speed hijinks, stealing carts, and playing highwayman. What I got was a system that seems actively hostile to everything fun implied by the use of the word caravan.

WoW i never thought someone could expect all of this for the caravan ...
After playing gw2, i was expecting something like it with a little more possibilities, it's what we got.

it's a really good system for me, because it will lock down a guild to move all those slow pig !

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Aedius said:

WoW i never thought someone could expect all of this for the caravan ...
After playing gw2, i was expecting something like it with a little more possibilities, it's what we got.

it's a really good system for me, because it will lock down a guild to move all those slow pig !

I would *happily* take the GW2 system in stead of this one if they were the only two options. That system just spit out yaks on a preset path that never got in my way in the middle of a fight, never glitched out on odd terrain, and never required me to do anything other than keep it in my line of sight while it went about its business and maybe give it a speed buff or heal or stealth field now and then. I'd trade control of where the pig goes for not having to meticulously babysit said pig every. single. step of the way in a heartbeat.

While it may have been less free it was also a way more enjoyable escort. If I have to get stuck walking a dog I'd at least rather walk a dog that knows where its going. I'd rather not have to walk a dog at all.

Have you played any open PvP games other than GW2?

I ask because WvW is very much "open PvP lite" when compared to the rest of the genre. No consequences, no ownership, no player looting, and generally built more to create constant fighting over paper thin objectives so people can be in giant battles 24/7 without fear of actually losing anything since nothing you win matters and all rewards are in personal loot tracks regardless of how your team does. There is no mechanism for pvp conflict over wealth in GW2.

The games APE listed are all good examples of what modern "Cargo PvP" systems tend to look like. Generally player driven cargo vehicles or mounts of some sort that don't require anyone to babysit an NPC. You can understand why this is what I sort of expected since up to this point all of the art and communication by ACE about caravans used terms like "driving" or "riding" and images of players driving them.

If your only reference point is GW2 supply yaks I'm sure it seems impressive because you can sort of control where the dog goes, but from the perspective of systems found in games much more like crowfall than GW2 it feels lacking.

Edited by PopeUrban

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I think we need to see it in the Campaign to get a good feel for it.

I was a bit surprised ACE did not reuse the tech from the Siege Perilous testing phase where we could drive catapults around.  Could have had us driving carts instead of catapults with a quick re-skin. 

Maybe that code had long since been abandoned though. 

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4 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

I think we need to see it in the Campaign to get a good feel for it.

I was a bit surprised ACE did not reuse the tech from the Siege Perilous testing phase where we could drive catapults around.  Could have had us driving carts instead of catapults with a quick re-skin. 

Maybe that code had long since been abandoned though. 

Beyond the bug/lag issues, I don't know what else there is to feel out. It is a very basic dated design. Without any interference it doesn't feel fun. Having to do something not fun while also defending/dodging enemies won't help. Rather just worry about my inventory that isn't going to get stuck on a rock and be able to enjoy fending off gankers.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

I think we need to see it in the Campaign to get a good feel for it.

I was a bit surprised ACE did not reuse the tech from the Siege Perilous testing phase where we could drive catapults around.  Could have had us driving carts instead of catapults with a quick re-skin. 

Maybe that code had long since been abandoned though. 

I mean its going to be walking the same janky pigs with people trying to kill you, right? I'm not sure what hidden depths putting it in a campaign could possibly reveal. Different spawn rates or resource payouts sure, but those things aren't my issue. The act of doing the gameplay activity is. It feels like a first pass with temporary content waiting for the real thing to be finished.

For instance, harvesting feels good. The whole doober mechanism, UI, weak spots, etc. is an activity that's comfortable, intuitive, and pleasurable to simply do in its own way. It stacks up to the harvesting systems in pretty much everything else I've played, and in many cases blows them away with its moment to moment gameplay. There was a lot of obvious work put in to making harvesting fun and intuitive because its an activity that, like combat, we're expected to do repeatedly.

Same with crafting. There is an obvious amount of love put in the the minutaie of not only the crafting system, but all of the interfaces, icons, and associated integrations in to the greater product.

By comparison, this major feature feels like somebody set a deadline for checking off 'caravans exist' and a few other people scrambled to do only the bare minimum required to check it off the list. If that's the case, OK cool. As is it feels really out of place.

Edited by PopeUrban

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@PopeUrban On the bright side - you already have a name for your favorite Packpig: Jason :D

It is the Alpha of that system so it was expected to be in rough state - I feel like you are judging it from a 'launch ready state'  PoV.

Overall it needs lots of work indeed!  I hope ACE has the time and the schedule sill in a "flexible'' state - as this build I doubt it will be beta ready earlier than 3-4 months from now.


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, KDSProm said:

 

Overall it needs lots of work indeed!  I hope ACE has the time and the schedule sill in a "flexible'' state - as this build I doubt it will be beta ready earlier than 3-4 months from now.

I think this is the takeaway from this patch, they are closer to launch, but launch is still miles away.

Edited by pamintandrei

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7 hours ago, KDSProm said:

@PopeUrban On the bright side - you already have a name for your favorite Packpig: Jason :D

It is the Alpha of that system so it was expected to be in rough state - I feel like you are judging it from a 'launch ready state'  PoV.

Overall it needs lots of work indeed!  I hope ACE has the time and the schedule sill in a "flexible'' state - as this build I doubt it will be beta ready earlier than 3-4 months from now.

Yeah I don't want anyone to assume I'm doomsaying here. This is feedback about a snap test of our first look at a new feature, not a 'game is garbage and dead" post.

Its simply my honest feedback that the *current* state of this system... feels terrible and needs several more passes.

I'd like to think this is the caravans equivalent to big world harvesting, which was janky and felt terrible the first time we played it, but was eventually molded in to a really good feeling set of player actions, modifiers, and relatively unique gameplay that didn't really reinvent the wheel but did put some bitchin' rims on it.


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9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Have you played any open PvP games other than GW2?

[...]

The games APE listed are all good examples of what modern "Cargo PvP" systems tend to look like. Generally player driven cargo vehicles or mounts of some sort that don't require anyone to babysit an NPC. You can understand why this is what I sort of expected since up to this point all of the art and communication by ACE about caravans used terms like "driving" or "riding" and images of players driving them.

Yes i played archeage, albion and some.
 

My expectation for caravan transport are not so high, because it's not a core mechanic, it's a kickstarter goal, so it wont be that important.

For me it's just another mechanic to lock people somewhere to do some fight.

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56 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Yeah I don't want anyone to assume I'm doomsaying here. This is feedback about a snap test of our first look at a new feature, not a 'game is garbage and dead" post.

Its simply my honest feedback that the *current* state of this system... feels terrible and needs several more passes.

I'd like to think this is the caravans equivalent to big world harvesting, which was janky and felt terrible the first time we played it, but was eventually molded in to a really good feeling set of player actions, modifiers, and relatively unique gameplay that didn't really reinvent the wheel but did put some bitchin' rims on it.

I share your thoughts on this. It needs a rework, I like the idea and I would like to see it have some benefit to a guild that can successfully pull it off, but as it is now it is pretty boring.

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15 minutes ago, Aedius said:

Yes i played archeage, albion and some.

My expectation for caravan transport are not so high, because it's not a core mechanic, it's a kickstarter goal, so it wont be that important.

For me it's just another mechanic to lock people somewhere to do some fight.

Considering the lack of content overall, caravans seem like a "core" mechanic at this point. Kickstarter didn't has much core playable features anyway. ACE makes them sound like a big deal so I assume they should be in the day to day experience. Even if they aren't something everyone does all the time, they shouldn't look/function so poorly. Only hope time will help.

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7 minutes ago, Yoink said:

WTF did I just watch and why could I not stop watching it?

fun and engaging gaemplay


hoayaga2.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I haven't done a lot of Caravan Runs, I think maybe two or three. My thoughts share a lot of the same concerns to how they've been implemented, as it seems... well, cheap. It's an F to interact that clumsily follows you. If you get out of its range, then you lose access to the object and it is free to take. Same if you die (I'm assuming). 

I almost think it would be better (and more obvious of a goal) if caravans were part of the stables you build within the Fort/Keep that you've captured, and pre-set routes were established. You could also have an upgrade to the stables, or a region upgrade if you own everything in a parcel that unlocks additional routes. I really like the idea of having to "Drive" the Caravan, much like Siege Perilous that was mentioned above. Perhaps have a few actions on the Caravan like "Burst Speed" to try and get away from conflicts. or "Bunker Down" that boosts the Caravan's Defenses and allows you to leave the Interactive object. 

Having Pre-Set routes that a caravan can take depending on which Keep/Fort they're in would be way more interesting than blundering through the map. Easier to avoid pathfinding issues. 

How I see this working, is you approach the Caravan Stables, F to interact and an interact-able campaign map would come up. You select from a list of routes which you want your caravan to follow. Once you select it, a button on the bottom right would say "Begin Route" and then the timer begins. Choosing a good route makes another hard decision for the player. Do I travel through the forest, and have more NPC mobs and not make use of a main road for speed? Or, do I take the road but have to deal with more potential player engagement? Then I have to consider paying mercenaries, or have guild mates guard my Caravan. Perhaps we can even hire, or gain NPC mercenaries from a Barracks building we've built in that fort/keep that guard caravans, but we have to pay them gold. 

This would create hotspot locations of activity to gank caravans, and further substantiate the dynamic gameplay that Crowfall *should* be known for. 

Edited by OsirianLegacy

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I kinda assumed Caravans would be trading between nodes. Go to Quarry, pick up a pack pig mount, ride it to destination, turn in reward. With how much they seemed to be mentioning them in QnAs and stuff I thought they would be some kind of important feature, but from what I saw they seem to be the biggest disappointment this patch. 

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